G.W-Arial Sharon- Fascist War Criminals

[ClearLight]

I will definitely agree with you that Arafat is a weak puppet. He has done absolutely nothing to further his people.

Lets talk about these refugee camps now. You say various terrorists resided there. First off, it is Israeli-US propaganda to refer to militant Palestinians reacting against Israeli aggression as 'terrorists'. Secondly, it is well known throughout the world that innocents (women and children) were mostly slaughtered by the phalangist troops. They did not just slaughter "terrorists". ALL "potential" terrorists were slaughtered, meaning all men or boys, regardless of age. (this was not a bombing ; it was a troop raid.) The DOCUMENTED death toll from the Shatila attacks is 3,000 plus.

those were not all terrorists, and there is no sane argument to justify those attacks.



and btw ; lets not forget, Israel has a history of blood thirsty war criminals ruling their country.. the name Moshe Dayan ring a bell?

 

[ClearLight]

and to correct you again ; regardless of whether sharon was born in israel ; he is of euro/polish descent, he is not a middle eastern jew, as most technically ARENT in Israel.

 

[Smartass]

Sharon was born close to Tel Aviv in 1928 and is of Russian descent, not Polish. If you don't see the difference, then shut up. And what is a Russian jew ? A jew who migrated to Russia, yay, we've gone full circle.
I know it's cheesy to name ancestors that lived centuries ago to state someone's origin, but you can't deny it ain't true.

Let's check the post before that...
oh yeah, well, terrorists are people who for ex. place bombs in public places in order to kill civilians. Whether their actions can be justified or not is not the point, terrorism cannot be tolerated.

About the camps...
Israeli soldiers let Phallangist troops inside those camps since those same troops were supposed to arrest terrorists. The PLO even built bunkers inside the camp and there was more evidence that there was an important group of activists among the people in those camps... and finally yes, instead of taking care of things, those same Phallangists slaughtered many innocent people and the Israeli army and Sharon, who was their defense minister should have predicted it. I'm not saying that civilians weren't murdered and that Sharon is an innocent angel, I'm just saying that there were terrorists inside the camp, and they should've been arrested or shot, but what happened is that Israeli soldiers let a bunch of savages inside the camps who butchered a lot of people.

 

[ClearLight]

As for Sharon, ok, he is Russian then.. I was not sure whether it was Russian, or Polish. I do know one of Israels most recent leaders was polish, maybe I was confusing the two.. and yes, I am not an ingrate, I see the "difference in the two".

Secondly, I remind you that suicide bombing is the only means of RETALIATION the Palestinians have. So AGAIN, when you say they must go after 'terrorists', who 'blow themselves up', you are saying the Palestinians have no right to aggressive militiaristic action agaisnt Israel.
Most Israeli citizens/soldiers/govt would love to see the entire Palestinian race whiped out (and vice versa for the Palestinians as well) ; so keeping that in mind, you must recognize that just as much evil is done by the Israelis, if not moreso, b/c they have the money and technology, and backing of the world police! When 12 Israelis die, the world mourns. When over 1 million Palestinians are displaced, and thousands of homes are destroyed, not a pin drop is heard.


Im sure you think the southern lebanese freedom fighters, who have fought to keep out Israeli millitary, Hizbollah, are "terrorists" as well.
Im also pretty sure you think Saddam is 'evil' and should be destroyed as soon as possible, and that we should have done all the ridiculous damage to Iraq that we did, and that we should still have all the sanctions. Maybe you can even justify depleted uranium usage and all the leukemia it has caused there? (just a tidbit of facts btw.. there a 90% literacy rate amongst men and women, everyone was eating, everyone was going to school.. the economny of Iraq was doing great right up until we started our campaign to totally destabilize the Iraqi government in late 80s-early90s. )
Im sure you also think Kuwait, our wonderful opec allies ; the fake state that was carved out of Iraq by the imperialists, should exist also.

more later..

 

[Smartass]

It's not the first time that I've heard your theory that justified terrorism... they're a poor bunch of people and therefore their only way to fight Israel is through terrorism...sigh..it still doesn;t justify terrorism. You can't say that they're allowed to do so since they have no means of leading a regular war..oh, let's not forget that Palestian does have an army, and who supplied the weapons ? Yep, Israel.
Of course, you're gonna deny this and say that it's what the media wants me to believe, but I don;t get my info from the media. sorry.

I'll tell you this :
They're pressuring Israel to give up more land through those bombings and if Israel agrees to it, the PLO definitely won't stop its activities since it gives them what they want. You give them a finger and they grab your hand. I do think they should reach an agreement by giving up more land to the Palestinians, but they're never staisfied, they want their whoile country back...

Ofcourse, you think that they should kick out most jews and let Israel become Palestina again, but it;s too late for that. They built a country that is comparable to the Western society (yes, thanks to investments from the US and Europe, so what ?) from a bunch of sand, and they're not going to give it to the Palestinians. It;s like giving Milwaukee and all its breweries to the Native Indians since they used to hunt there.

The whole Iraqi situation has nothing to do with it. I'm not some cheesy little prick saying "fuck Saddam" while listening to the Blood Splattered Banner but I'm not gonna call him a good leader either. Besides that, I totally agree that they did screw up Iraq. Satisfied ? But Iraq doing great in the late 80's ..euhm... nah, I disagree, they just got out of their war with Iran, the whole country was a mess.

 

[ClearLight]

first off, the entire world knows that the Palestinian 'army' does not have the means or capability to conduct a full scale war against Israeli army forces.
Israel gives them weapons.. lol... you have already sided with the Israelis, and their brand of racist propaganda.During and after the establishment of the state of Israel, almost 800,000 Palestinian refugees were created by a process that today would be called ethnic cleansing. These refugees and their descendants are the largest and most persistent refugee problem in the world with over 3.7 million registered by the United Nations and about 2 million others not registered but living in countries and regions sometimes within a very short distance of their original homes and lands.

Count Folke Bernadotte , the UN Mediator once stated: "It would be an offence against the principles of elemental justice if these innocent victims of the conflict were denied the right to return to their homes, while Jewish immigrants flow into Palestine" (UN Doc Al 648, 1948). This remains true today as any person with a Jewish religion can gain automatic citizenship while Palestinians born in Palestine/Israel cannot return to their homeland.


The Right of Return has a solid legal basis. The United Nations adopted Resolution 194 on December 11, 1948. Paragraph 11 states: "...the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date... compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return." Resolution 194 was affirmed practically every year since with a universal consensus, except for Israel and the U.S. This resolution is further clarified by UN General Assembly Resolution 3236 which reaffirms in Subsection 2, "the inalienable right of the Palestinians to return to their homes and property from which they have been displaced and uprooted, and calls for their return". Hindering return is an act of aggression which deserves condemnation and/or action by the Security Council. Liability for consequences of violation remains with Israel. UN partition resolution 181 and Israel's later admission to the UN were conditional on acceptance of relevant UN resolutions including 194.


The Right of Return does not derive its validity merely from UN Resolutions. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights article 13 reaffirms the right of every individual to leave and return to his country. Moreover, the Principle of Self Determination guarantees, inter alia, the right of ownership and domicile in one's own country. This principle was adopted by the UN in 1947. In 1969 and thereafter, it was explicitly applied to the Palestinian People, including "the legality of the Peoples' struggle for Self-Determination and liberation", (GAOR 2535 (xxiv), 2628 (xxv), 2672 (xxv), 2792 (xxvi)). International law demands that neither occupation nor sovereignty diminish the rights of private ownership. When the Ottomans surrendered in 1920, Palestinian ownership of the land was maintained. The land and property of "the refugees" remains their own and they are entitled to return to it.


Research not only shows that the right of the refugees is sacred and legal but also possible (i.e. it is a myth that Israelis would have to be displaced to allow for the return of the refugees). A study on the demography of Israel shows that 78% of Israelis are living in 14 percent of Israel and that the remaining 86% of the land in Israel is mostly land that belongs to the refugees on which 22% of the Israelis live. However, 20% live in city centers, which are mostly Palestinian such as, Beer Al Saba', Ashdod, Majdal, Asqalan, Nazareth, Haifa, Acre, Tiberias and Safad. As for the remaining 20%, they live in kibbutzes and moshavs. They control the legacy and heritage of five million Palestinian refugees. Is there any logic to having 2,400 refugees on one square kilometer in the Gaza Strip while any one of them could look over the barbed wire and see his land practically empty? If Gaza refugees returned to their homes in southern Palestine, no more than five percent of Jews in the center would be affected. If the refugees of Lebanon returned to their homes in the Galilee no more than one percent of Jews in the center would be affected. The total number of refugees from Gaza and Lebanon equals the number of Russian immigrants who came to Israel in the '90s to live in the homes of these refugees. What right brings in Russian Jews and what kind of peace deprives Palestinian refugees the right to return home?


According to a report by Amnesty International last December, 2650 Palestinian houses have been destroyed since 1987 by Israel in the West Bank, including east Jerusalem, on the pretext of not having building permission. Further thousands of acres owned by Palestinians have been confiscated to build settlements in the occupied territories in contraventions to the 4th Geneva convention Article 49 stating that the "Occupying Power shall not transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies."


The inalienable rights of refugees cannot be left to "negotiations" between Israel and the Palestinian authority. International law considers agreements between an occupier and any body in occupied areas to be null and void if they deprive civilians of recognized human rights including the rights to repatriation and restitution. No peace will be durable without solving the refugee situation regardless of agreements signed between a strong party (Israel) and a weak and unrepresentative one (Yasser Arafat).


The US is bound by its constitution to support human rights and freedom. There is no more elemental right than one's right to his/her home and to live in his/her land. The US could use the massive financial support we give to the State of Israel to press for this right.

I dont care what you say ; people who probably GREW UP in refugee camps in the first place, blow themselves up b/c it is their last desperate attempt. Believe me, I think if the Palestinians had a capable and strong army, they would have used it a long time ago!

 

[Smartass]

>first off, the entire world knows that the Palestinian 'army' >does not have the means or capability to conduct a full >scale war against Israeli army forces.

They weren't going to give them more weapons than they own themselves, that'd be kinda stupid, wouldn't it ?

>Israel gives them weapons.. lol... you have already sided >with the Israelis, and their brand of racist propaganda

Like I said previously, this ain't any propaganda, those are facts. You seem to think that all good things said about Israel are media inventions, and all bad things said about Israel are 100% true...it's pretty naive to divide both parties in "good" and "bad" since both parties are right and wrong at the same time. I agree with you on many matters, but you seem to have chosen to listen only to one side of the story.

Then comes the whole blablabla about 5.7 million Palestinians living outside Palestina. Frankly, those numbers sound rather large based on the fact that there were 600.000 Palestinians in the country we call Israel today at the beginning of the 20th century. Must've been breeding like rabbits...while it's common knowledge that birth rates decrease during wars and other related conflicts.

Your whole "human rights" text would've been true if Israel had deported all those people because of their own greed. Let me tell you that they had no choice considering the immediate attacks from neighbouring countries right after Israel was founded and the war-climate that resulted from that. The US, for example, didn;t have any choice but to put all people of japanese origin in camps during the second World War. It's cruel, but what to do in times of war ? Not only are you protecting your citizens from possible terrorist attacks, but you're protecting the people put in camps in case the local population feels like starting a war of their own. The massive attacks on muslims in the US following september the 11th proves this once again. SO why not put all US-muslims in camps ? Well, since we're not talking about a war against a religion (the Islam is often portrayed as a fanatic religion that promotes hate etc... which is wrong) but against a specific group of activists. They're claiming to act in the name of Allah, but that's their own choice. The Islam condemns violence. They just have this golden rule saying that if someone bothers you, you have the right to defend yourself by retaliating..this often gets misinterpreted.

I am for a peacefull agreement that would lead to jews and Palestinians living together in one country. Add the Sinai desert and there'd be enough place for everybody, but all negotiations always end because of new terrorist activities. You are for the deportation of all jews that migrated to Israel after 1948, and for the migration of Palestinians that were forced out of their homes after 1948, which makes sense but considering the current situation (see my Milwaukee ex. in my previous posts) there is no way the jews'll leave Israel. So yes, bring all the deported refugees back, give their land back etc..etc... but not until the terrorism stops. Bringing back the refugies right now will only create more casualties (on both sides).

 

[Smartass]

I must add to this that I make a huge difference between the situation in Israel and this so-called war against terrorism in Afghanisatan. Being Pro-Israel doesn't necessarily mean being Pro-US.

yeye, Israel got a lot of support from the US, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with all the stupid decisions US politicians make. They claim to start a war against terorism but nuke a whole country...

I'm not even gonna start about THE shield...

 

[ClearLight]

Without the constant infusion of arms and aid from the United States Israel could not last one day. U.S. aid totals more than 10 million dollars every day for the last 52 years. Israel is the largest recipient of U.S. aid in the world, every year. The U.S. has given over 100 billion dollars to Israel, more than the total combined aid to Latin America, the Caribbean and sub-Saharan Africa.

The U.S. gives this aid not because it is a friend of the people of Israel, but because the Israeli state is strategic to Washington's domination of the oil- rich Middle East. It intends Israel to exist as a garrison state, a cats-paw for U.S. policy, a continuing source of instability in the region.

Washington has imposed sanctions that caused the death of millions of people. It has organized coups, assassinations, wars and invasions on every continent against any country that doesn't comply with its demands. But it has never given as much as a reprimand to the Israeli state for all its violations of United Nations agreements. Why? Because Israel is just carrying out U.S. policy.

U.S. domination of the entire Middle East feeds on instability, war and crisis. The system of U.S. rule feeds on war, it's profits are based on war and militarism and the control of global markets. It is a system that creates the greatest wealth for a few and at the same time the greatest human poverty in history.

It is a completely bankrupt system that is incapable of resolving any social problem.

What do we mean when we say, "No Justice, no Peace"?

No peace is possible in Palestine until the totally justified demands of the Palestinian people for a real state on contiguous territory, with Jerusalem as its capital and with the right to return for the almost 5 million Palestinian refugees and in the Diaspora is a reality.

Over the past decades the struggle of the Palestinian people has inspired hundreds of millions of people worldwide because of its dynamism and revolutionary fervor.

Despite every effort to wipe out Palestine the struggle has been reborn again and again.

The whole world owes a debt to the Palestinian people. Their resistance gives new heart, new confidence, new strength to the growing fight against the policies of corporate globalization, sanctions and racism.

It is you who fails to recognize that from day one, the entire APARTHEID! state of Israel has been built upon deceit, corruptness, racism, and western-interference-imperialism!

Long live the Palestinian Resistance!

Long live the Intifada!

No Justice, No Peace!

U.S. Out of the Middle East!

(AND FOR YOUR INFORMATION, YES, THERE ARE an estimated 5 million TOTAL Palestinians displaced! CHECK YOUR FACTS it is documented by various UN related sources, as well as the INTERNATIONAL ACTION CENTER-Ramsey Clarke)

 

[ClearLight]

Just a short little list of events where Palestinian children and civilians were either 'accidentally' or intentionally murdered by Israel f-16s, and soldiers :

Deir Al Zahranee - a building where only civilians resided ; 8 children found dead, 17 injured

Nabatiyeh Bus - A SCHOOL bus carrying 5th graders ; 15 dead

Sohmor - civilian highway bombed ; two civilian cars were destroyed ; 8 dead

Mansouree - AN F-16 APACHE destroys ambulance carrying injured children ; 13, all dead.

Nabatiyeh - various civilian homes blown up by bomb raid, 16 dead

Qana - 200 CIVILIANS DEAD - Israel forces bomb a UNIFIL center, where civilians were taking refuge b/c of fear of shelling.

Janta - school children returning home from school, 10 children dead by apache bomb

Beirut - civilian complex in Beirut ; almost 100 civilians dead.

Bint Jbeil - civilian MARKET ; 50 dead by apache bomb

Ouzahi - civilian residential area ; Israeli forces refused to leave until there was no one left in the town. 46 civilians dead

Abbasieh - mosque used for shelter for the elderly, women, and children , 80 civilians dead

Saida - residential area, 40 civilians dead

Fakhani - extremely crowded residential area ; 150 civilians dead ; 600 wounded

Al-Baida-vacinity of Arab University - 100 civilians dead

Maarka - bomb planted near aid building, 15 civilians dead, 8 children

Zrariah- over 20 Israeli tanks stormed through the civilian settlement, leaving 42 civilians dead

This list doesn't even scratch the surface of travesties comitted by Israel.. these are UNICEF figures btw.

 

[Smartass]

I'm not gonna check if the list you've submitted is correct or not... it prolly is close to the truth, but may I ask you if you've ever witnessed a clash between Israeli soldiers and Palestinians ? I bet you haven't. Well, it's common for Palestinians to use women and children as living shields. Same goes for any military equipment they have, which is always situated near schools, hospitals, etc...in the hope that it won't be attacked since there might be a lot of casualties, which wouldn't look too good in the media.

What were you trying to prove anyway ? That Israeli soldiers are trained to kill Palestinian civilians ? You don't seriously believe that, do you ? Don't blame the Israelis for your list, blame the Palestinians.

About the investments the US has made in Israel, you seem to forget that the US can't possibly not support Israel, considering how important American jews are for the US' economy. That being said, those billions of dollars the US has invested in Israel don't come out of the pocket of a bunch of rednecks from Kentucky, but from companies that relied greatly on jewish $$$.

 

[Unregistered]

Clearlight - You are probably the most confused individual I have ever come across.

Do you believe everything you read?

Where exactly do you get all your info? The Net? Very reliable stuff there.....

What are your credentials?? You come across as quite the expert on Middle Eastern affairs? I am anxious to find out what University you were educated at and what curriculum you studied that made you such an expert on Israel??

Please respond, not with more confused banter or anger, just with answers to my questions.

Oh and as an American, what exactly would you have done in Mr. Bush's shoes after Sept 11?

Have you noticed that 95% on Americans back their President and his actions?

Are you somehow insinuating that it is the fault of the innocent women, children and men of America or Israel when they are killed or attacked by a terrorist? You seem to think that cowardly violence is justifiable. You both humor me and scare me with your lack of intelligence and sound mind.

 

[enitharmon]

Originally posted by Smartass

Must've been breeding like rabbits...while it's common knowledge that birth rates decrease during wars and other related conflicts.

Arafat once said, the utero of the palestinian mother is my ally. Palestinian girls were until a few years ago married with 14, and they were "breading" until they could. A woman down there has at least 8 children.

 

[ClearLight]

this comes down to sheer politics.
You have sided with Israel, and apparently feel the Palestinians should not have Jerusalem back. You also don't seem to understand the last-resort concept of suicide bombing.

I do not have much University credentials. I never said I did. Does one have to have Univeristy credentials to partake in a political discussion?
I read constantly and have kept myself thoroughly updated and informed on American policy in the middle east for quite a while now , and I make sure my source of info is reliable, and factual based.

-The International War Crimes Tribunal
-International Action Center (former attorney general Ramsey Clarke)
-UNICEF/RED CRESCENT
- Al Awda, The Palestinian Right to Return Coalition
-The New Intifada - Roane Johnson, Noam Chomsky
-acclaimed 'leftist' journalist Michael Parenti

these are just a few of my favorite sources.

anyways, we are apparently getting nowhere with this debate, neither of us are bending in our views. I do not feel enlightened by what you have responded with, on the contrary, it sounds like cliched american propaganda responses that Ive heard time and time again ; you probably feel the same way about me also.

 

[Feiron]

Originally posted by Unregistered
You both humor me and scare me with your lack of intelligence and sound mind.

How amusing. ClearLight is obviously intelligent and has done much study on this issue. You say he is unintelligent and does not have sound mind because you don't agree with him. Now that's intelligent.

And you don't give any proof that ClearLight is not right. Your only "proof" is that 95% of Americans back mr. Bush. What a lousy reasoning to make something "right". Do you know how many Germans backed Hitler in the 30s?

I might not agree with ClearLight, but at least he has made a well backed up point.

 

[Smartass]

I suppose this reply wasn't directed towards me, was it ?

...cos I'd feel pretty insulted if you called me an American.

 

[Unregistered]

Originally posted by Smartass
I suppose this reply wasn't directed towards me, was it ?

...cos I'd feel pretty insulted if you called me an American.

Obviously it was not directed at you, I specifically mentioned Clearlight....

I have no interest in discussing anything with you.

 

[Unregistered]

Originally posted by Feiron


How amusing. ClearLight is obviously intelligent and has done much study on this issue. You say he is unintelligent and does not have sound mind because you don't agree with him. Now that's intelligent.

And you don't give any proof that ClearLight is not right. Your only "proof" is that 95% of Americans back mr. Bush. What a lousy reasoning to make something "right". Do you know how many Germans backed Hitler in the 30s?

I might not agree with ClearLight, but at least he has made a well backed up point.

I never said Clearlight was wrong. I simply asked where he gets all of his information. He has made a well backed up point, that is based on leftist and palestinian journalists points of view. Well, no shit hes going to have that belief if thats what he chooses to read.

I asked him questions, I guess you didnt read those.

I do find him confused, and I find him spouting off anti-Israeli propoganda, that very clearly are not his own formed opinions. On the contrary, he is basically regurgitating what he is reading from outside sources. Yes, I find that unintelligent.

As far as my comment on Mr. Bush. I didnt say anything about whether he is right, wrong, good, bad or evil. All I said was the majority of America agrees with his actions. Given his position, what would you do differently to hand the events of Sept. 11. I got not response. Not a big surprise.

Real intelligence is formed by experience and action, not reading the views of a particular side of a conflict. Unless he has been educated by a non bias source or actually has experience in the Middle East he is not backing anything that he says up.

Notice Im not spewing off about who is right and who is wrong because I dont know. Im not an expert and dont feel like acting like i am one today.

All I ask is before presenting yourself as an expert, at least be one.

 

[ClearLight]

what exactly is your definition of biased?? I might be able to say your sources are biased.

Tell me your education, sources, and I will debate them.
As far as 'spouting off regurgitated propaganda" goes ; AGAIN, I can say the same of you.
Believe me ; there is ALOT of leftist bullshit out there, and MUCH pro- arab/palestinian propaganda that is definitely fabricated. I make sure to THOROUGHLY research all information I encounter. I use sources that, through research and analysis, seem to be the most credible. (that also means keeping up on all information released by our own media, official govt documents and statistics, etc etc) As well as keeping up on various other non-arab countries throughout the world perspectives. (-Particularly Greece and Spains political representatives have spoken out against U.S. policies in Iraq and Palestine on a few occasions-)
You say my sources are 'biased'. Do you want to go on documented information provided by the U.S. and their political allies, ? Many countries and political theologies elsewhere in the world feel THAT perspective is biased, unjust, filled with cracks, and imperialist.
Smartass ; this is a matter of sheer perspective. We are embracing the world with two completely different political standpoints. Neither of us can say we are the 'right' one ; that is obvious.
I think it is absurd to refer to my arguements as 'un-intelligent' and 'regurgitated propaganda', when the exact same can be said about your arguements. That means your definition of intelligent would be the opposite of the viewpoint Im trying to get across ; thus meaning you are 'right', and thats downright silly.

Again, you say I should read 'unbiased sources, or at least have experience in the middle east'. Tell me these great totally factual sources that aren't touched by bias or corrupt that you have come across? Are they UN sanctioned?
Are they officially backed by the U.S.or their political bedfellows? I can easily deconstruct those into lies and propaganda if you'd like.. Give me your sources, and we can talk some more.

In the mean time, don't throw around terms like "un-intelligent" ; or "un-educated". Those have no place in political debate. I thought it was obvious to an adult.
It shows immaturity and an inability to have a real opinion on the matter. You said yourself you "aren't an expert", but apparently you know enough to have an opinion on MY views eh?


"Ronald Reagan was the greatest President America has ever seen"- Rush Limbaugh, 1990

 

[Smartass]

No, I got that mr. "unregistered", I was just wondering if CLearlight's reply wasn't also directed to me, since he stated the following : "we are apparently getting nowhere with this debate" ...

Clearlight's just being a rebel since the US is mostly pro-Israel, and he wants to be this Don Quichotte figure who proves everyone's wrong. Well, let me tell you that my opinion has nothing to do with what the majority thinks, or what the US thinks.

Blindly going the opposite way the sheep go doesn't mean you're not just as blind as they are.