Getting clear separation?

[plisken]

Hey guys, A problem I have been having with my mixes in general is I cant seem to get the tracks to "separate". What I mean is, for example say there are 2 guitars. 1 is panned hard left, the other hard right. Even though they are panned only on the hard left and right I can hear them all over the mix, as if they were taking up the entire stereo space.

I tried EQ'ing but it didnt really work, not really sure what im doing wrong.

Its not just guitars to. Though to a lesser extent, the drums sort of have the same problem. Also keyboards im not sure what to do with as they are stereo recordings.

 

[plisken]

Just in case, here is a good example of what im trying to get in terms of separation.

 

[LiberaScientia]

Maybe you could try using a slightly different tone on each side? Maybe try the same head but with a different cab, or vice versa?

 

[plisken]

I have, even though I knew its not how I wanted it to sound but I tried just to see if it would work but nope. I really thought it was an EQing problem but I have spent countless hours EQing to no end.

 

[plisken]

Im starting to think it might have something to do with the bass guitar in the mix. The recordings of the bass I got were, um not ideal to say the least. It is sort of messing up my mix, could also be messing up my perception of separation?

 

[Aaron Smith]

It's really hard to say what your problems are without hearing a clip. The L/R guitar thing doesn't sound like an example of separation to me, though...the whole point of double tracking and hard-panning guitars is so that the guitars sound wide, and are basically dispersed evenly across the stereo field. You can record a different tone on each side, but if they're too different sounding, the mix will feel very lopsided (you don't really want one side sounding super bright and the other sounding dull, obviously). There are lots of mixes that have identical guitar tones on each side, yet the whole mix still has good separation. If you're having trouble getting anything else in the mix to feel separated from the guitars, you probably have the guitars too loud, and/or they at least need to be filtered beneath about 60Hz and above 12kHz (that's a good starting point, at least).

 

[plisken]

Yeah, Im not using drastically different tones, they are pretty close. Dont want lopsidingness going on.

I do have filters on the guitars. Maybe filtered to much? I have a HPF at 160
and LPF filter at 16000

Here is a mix for you to listen to!

 

[bryan_kilco]

Can't listen now, but try bringing the HPF down as well as your LPF. I bet your guitars are super bright and harsh.

 

[Fox Mulder]

You have to identify and decide on the sweet spots before you dig deep into mixing. Concentrate on the higher mids, the fine balance around the regions of 1500hz and 3000hz. It's also a good idea to just mute the guitars and concentrate on the rest of the instruments during the preliminary mix. Separate the bass and the kick, shove the snare low-mid peak around 200hz (if that's where your snare peaks) through the bass. Move on to the attack. Balance the higher mids of the drums and the bass. Bring in the vocals. Balance the higher mids again...

 

[C_F_H_13]

For me, clarity/separation comes from cutting out all the conflicting stuff in a few specific areas. 100-300hz, 500-800hz, and 2k-4k are the general areas I look at. Sometimes guitars eating away at everything is too much low mid content, or way too abrasive in the 2k-4k range. Way I taught myself was taking the whole mix in mono and one speaker. Bring drums up, then bass...if it gets cloudy, look at the low end of the kick/snare and the bass...bring the guitars in...cloudy again? probably too much somewhere..and just cut and cut and cut till it starts to clear up. EAsy to overdue, but it's a great way to fix things that get all cluttered.

 

[JohnTheRipper]

Can't listen to the track you posted, it says it's unavailable. But there are some guidelines in general for getting a lot of separation:
Don't low-pass the hell out of things, even the guitars (try to stay above 14-15k and try and get a "not fizzy" tone straight of the amp/cab/mic placement). Also, try cutting in the low and low-mid area (you might have some cabinet resonances up to 200-300 hz that will muddy up your mix a lot).
BTW, don't wash the guitars in reverb, maybe even don't use any at all.
A trick i "found" was to make the drums very pretty dry and up-front in the mix. Generally, when people hear drums right in their face, they think: "damn, that's really good separation. Almost sounds like the catholic and orthodox churches having a schism". Drums need lots of higher midrange as well (think 1-1.2k, and "slap" at 3-4k). I'll post an example of this:

I've also generally found that the 0.8-1.2k frequency range helps guitars stand out more if they're buried in the mix, and makes them seem more separated. Don't overdo this though, or you'll make them sound honky and way too loud. Also, play with the levels a lot, the guitars may be way louder than you think.
Another element you need to watch out for is the bass guitar. A distorted and mid-rangey bass guitar will basically act as a center rhythm guitar, making separation of guitars even harder. In stoner this is actually sought after, making the mix as thick as ebony ass, but if you want separation, cut the hell out of 400hz, 0.8-1.2k (but not so much here, you still want to hear the bass in there) and use a clean tone.
Well, enough with my rant, good luck with your mix!

 

[plisken]

ah, I fixed the soundcloud link, it works now. Also thank you all for the advice so far! I really appreciate it!

 

[neptunian]

I hear what you mean. On the open power chords especially, the fizz part of the distortion sounds like it's partly toward the center instead of L/R, but on the string scratch part it sounds full L/R. Did you use an amp sim for this? In the past I noticed the same amp sim model on L and R can take away from the stereo image, since both use the exact same distortion algorithm. Either that, or maybe there's something on your bus / track (plugin or fader) that's reducing the image. Maybe try soloing just the guitar tracks to hear whether it's actually staying full L/R or not.

 

[JohnTheRipper]

Now that i listen to your sample, it's exactly the problem i outlined above: the drums are waaaaay too buried in the mix. But i don't understand why you'd want your guitars very separated, they're just fine the way they are now, it fits the genre. Just make the drums a little bit punchier (like your example or slayer's gemini) and you're set, the rest is fine.

 

[Pekka Posio]

Your bass is too loud and muddy. Try to make big cut in bass somewhere around 300-600Hz.
The only cymbals I can hear are the crashes. Raise hihat at least something like 3-5dB, maybe even more.
All the synth pads are far too static, pads sound like hard compressed or then those sounds just are very dull and have no dynamics. I think the pads should be at lower volume, because they really are not that intresting. If synth arrangements are really good, it's ok to have them loud but with static simple full bar chords you can't get them sound awesome.

I also have to mention that the solo part is pretty hilarious; first there is few out of tune notes and after that like perfectly clean 16th note arpeggios with no actual "real" picking sound. You should edit that stuff a little bit less or record it in real tempo. There are also few guitar parts which are little too much out of tune.

I'm not trying to be an ass, just tried to give some good tips on my opinion I hope this helps you.

 

[plisken]

Thank you all for the help guys! I will take what you all said and re-work the mix and post a new mix up! You guys are awesome =)

@Pekka Posio : Man I love that you are being critical of the mix! If you think that something is shit or funny, etc then I totally dont mind anyone pointing that out! Though for the solo section I should mention its a guitar lead and keyboard lead playing in harmony. Its funny you should mention it sounding a bit out of tune because I kept telling the guitarist that I was pretty sure it was out of tune and he kept telling me it wasn't >.> And also I did no editing at all to the guitar lead track, and it was recorded at tempo, not slower then speed up. I guess I should pan the 2 leads a little more separated from each other then they are now? so they are more distinguished from each other?

@JohnTheRipper I will work on the drums, When I tried bring it out more the mix it was sort of over powering in the mix, I thought it might be a volume problem, but I guess it was a frequency problem that EQ will solve?

@neptunian YES! that is exactly what I was talking about. And Yes I am using an amp sim >.> Amplitube 3.8, what can I do to fix the problem? I already have one side with different settings and the other in the mix you heard.

 

[neptunian]

@neptunian YES! that is exactly what I was talking about. And Yes I am using an amp sim >.> Amplitube 3.8, what can I do to fix the problem? I already have one side with different settings and the other in the mix you heard.

Try using a different amp head, instead of different settings on the same amp head, and see if that makes a difference.

I went so far as using two different amp sims from different companies, like Revalver and LePou on L and R. It actually gave greater separation than using the same software for both sides. I think it's because the difference in programming means less in common, even if the two sound similar when each is soloed alone.

But really, I recommend bouncing just the guitars for closer analysis, so that you can hear whether it's really the guitars doing it, or the other elements in the mix seemingly interfering with the guitar separation.