Getting really sick of discovering rip-offs in Opeth music

[hibernal_dream]

Jeez... when ya get right down to it, there are really only 12 notes in modern music theory, and they've been around for a really long time, so please explain to us how the hell can anything be truly "original"? And come on, reality time... name pretty much any band on the planet and you could pick out stuff they've "borrowed" all over the place if you looked hard enough!

Everyone has their own conglomeration of influences, it's how you combine, express and reinterpret them that formulates your own individual "style". You CANNOT be a musician, or any type of artist for that matter, and not "borrow" from what you've experienced and heard before. It's only "stealing" if it's a contrived, deliberate effort to deceive, and I certainly don't pick up on any of that coming from Opeth!

If you still can't handle it, shut up, go invent some new notes and show us all how it's done already!

This is a wank argument that stupid people always use to justify unoriginal music. Think about it - yes there are 12 notes but western music gave us extremely limited ways of using them. The 12 tone system makes better use of the tonal range but is arguably even more limited than that. Even so, in a 2 minute song, you only have 12 notes, but those notes exist in multiple octaves; you have in addition infinite ways of using them either together as chords or sequentially, infinite note length rhythmic combinations, infinite structural possibilities and infinite dynamic and instrumental combinations. That leaves essentially zero room for ripping stuff off.

 

[BlueSky]

Its not trolling to express a concern about one of my favourite bands. It reallly irks me how much everyone here has over-simplified my point. No, I'm not upset that Opeth use chords or notes that other people have used before. The part in the song I have referred to is a direct copy of an element of the original, its not being influenced or using similar chords or whatever. Its the same thing. You guys have just been setting up ridiculous straw-man arguments, I've never said anything about no one being influenced by anyone else. Direct copies of melodies and riffs isn't influential or creative no matter how much you like the band. Opeth is probably my favourite band, but that doesn't mean that I can't have any criticism of them. Its seriously almost like you can't actually understand the point I'm making. I'll say it again, if another band took Opeth's riffs and melodies in the way Opeth happily steals (occasionally...again this is only a criticism, not my be-all opinion of them), you wouldn't be so forgiving about it.

You must really hate the blues then. Or Jimi Hendrix, or Jimmy Page, or Eric clapton, etc. etc.

 

[Shredzilla]

The great thing about Mike is that he has such a wide range of musical influences. I love the fact that he borrows ideas and makes them in to his own. Come on! That's how you get new ideas, bro. That's how you make epic music. Some of the greatest riffs of our time were created because someone got inspired. Don't fault Mike for being influenced and using that to his advantage.

 

[Lapazeus]

I don't think the fact there are rip-offs is up for dispute here? Everyone here has acknowledged it, therefore I'm not going to waste my time.

Homage versus plagiarism?

Anyway, if you'd point all the so-called rip-offs, we could decide whether there really are many enough to "get really sick" of them.

 

[Blue Moon]

Wow what a bunch of sycophants you losers are.

There are ripoffs in the music, or at least segments that are really reminescent of other people's music.

Not that it's mindnumbingly infuriating for me, but if the guy feels it this way, it's possible to talk about it and maybe even debunk his feeling instead of telling him to go fuck himself.

Sangreal, I just came back to the forum after years of absence, so I don't exactly know which parts you are talking about. I'd be happy to discuss the matter. Everytime I listen to Burden for instance, I hear a very strong reference to Pink Floyd's Dogs around 2:20 into the song. The rythm section during Fredrik's solo.

 

[RoadKing]

This is a wank argument that stupid people always use to justify unoriginal music.

So you're saying that Opeth is unoriginal music, fascinating! Man, you must be one really talented cat to have the balls to pull of that statement. Why don't you share some of your vastly superior, super-bitchen and totally original work with the rest of us, then. I'd really like to see you show the rest of the world how it's supposed to be done! This should be good...

Think about it - yes there are 12 notes but western music gave us extremely limited ways of using them. The 12 tone system makes better use of the tonal range but is arguably even more limited than that. Even so, in a 2 minute song, you only have 12 notes, but those notes exist in multiple octaves; you have in addition infinite ways of using them either together as chords or sequentially, infinite note length rhythmic combinations, infinite structural possibilities and infinite dynamic and instrumental combinations. That leaves essentially zero room for ripping stuff off.

"Zero Room", huh? So in the many hundreds of years that this system has been around and in use by untold millions, hell billions of musicians over said period of time, there's really that little room left for repetition? Who knew?! So according to your own logic, any combination of notes, scales, chords, arpeggios or rhythmic structures that has ever been either written down or recorded before cannot be repeated without constituting a "ripoff", and anyone who disagrees is a stupid wanker, is that it? Very compelling argument...

Pheeeeuuuuuwwww... uke:

 

[Mikael Akerfeldt]

To be honest, when we did "To rid" yes, it was ripped off from Marie! At the time I figured no one would ever know and I was right until we recorded her song. It's basically an e-chord and doing a played volume swell like that has been done a million times. I got it from Marie, her guitarist probably got it from someone else.

What can I say, I wear my influences on my sleeve. I'm usually pretty straight about my rip offs so it's not like I'm trying to make it "mine". It's an homage more or less.

Mike

 

[BlueSky]

"To rid?"

 

[Crepuscularia]

"To rid?"

I'm sure he meant to say "To bid", but yeah, my first thought was "To rid the disease? There are Marie 'rip-offs' in that one too?"

 

[isolation_years]

To be honest, when we did "To rid" yes, it was ripped off from Marie! At the time I figured no one would ever know and I was right until we recorded her song. It's basically an e-chord and doing a played volume swell like that has been done a million times. I got it from Marie, her guitarist probably got it from someone else.

What can I say, I wear my influences on my sleeve. I'm usually pretty straight about my rip offs so it's not like I'm trying to make it "mine". It's an homage more or less.

Mike

doesnt seem like hes embarassed anyone found out his secret , i wouldnt be either, the stuff he homages(??) always fits well in the song, so well that unless you know the song super well, you wouldnt even know it wasnt his. i dont see it as a very big deal, if you dont like that part of the music, dont listen to it

 

[ever dying]

Yeah well, what good ideas did the Dutch people ever have ? (besides legalizing the pot)

Read this.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Golden_Age,_List_Of_People

IMO finding so called ripp offs in Opeth music is a good thing..
If someone else made a good song, why not try making your own song good by using things for someone else..?
If that is what Mike does, and he makes music that I like that why.. Who cares?!

 

[JonesyAZ]

I have been visiting the Opeth forums since the Ghost Reveries days, and no post has piqued my interest enough to cause me to join until I read this one today.

I find the discussion interesting, because there are good points that have been brought up, and as a musician myself, this is a subject that is always on a musician's mind when writing material and/or listening to your favorite bands as your musical palette grows over the years.

I wanted to share my own experience in writing, recording, and ultimately releasing an album. I am one half of the studio band, "A Dark Halo". We self-released an album called "Catalyst" about 2 years ago, initially recorded for ourselves, but released to share our music with others. The primary goal of the project was to take what we considered "American" style metal towards the end of the 90's, and throw in a "European" influence, written using orchestral progression, layered with all kinds of keyboards and sounds, with a splash of industrial programming for good measure. Well, we were pretty happy with what we accomplished, but we have been met with much criticism in ripping off another band, which in our case is "Fear Factory" from the common listener's standpoint, and even our only "professional" review on AllMusic.com was very negative. But the fact is, we know it was not our intention to rip anyone off, but I can agree what people have said; the feel is there, and you have to consider that we grew up as teenagers in the 90's, the vocalist of the project has the same natural tamber in his voice as Burton Bell...shit happens. But on the flipside, I have spoken with numerous folks that "got" what we were trying to accomplish, and that means so much more to me.

The great thing about opinions such as the ones brought up in this thread is that you don't have to agree with them. But they are fun to read and consider because it can open the mind.

Some last few thoughts I wanted to share: I just got Iron Maiden's first two records and listened to them for the first time ever in my life, and I couldn't believe how similar Paul Di'Anno's voice was to how James Hetfield sang during the "Kill 'Em All" days. But I still love what both Iron Maiden and Metallica have released, because they took what they love and tried to make their own statement in the genre, and they've certainly done well. Just like Opeth; I appreciate what they have accomplished as artists, because they have opened me up to some great music, and i've gotten through some tough times having their songs to listen to. Plus, it feels great for me knowing that the guys in the band are truly nice individuals that aren't out there for the glam and the glory, just to make some kick ass music!

Thank you guys for inspiring me to speak my mind. I know I was kind of long-winded, but I feel better Have a great weekend!

 

[beast from the east]

To be honest, when we did "To rid" yes, it was ripped off from Marie! At the time I figured no one would ever know and I was right until we recorded her song. It's basically an e-chord and doing a played volume swell like that has been done a million times. I got it from Marie, her guitarist probably got it from someone else.

What can I say, I wear my influences on my sleeve. I'm usually pretty straight about my rip offs so it's not like I'm trying to make it "mine". It's an homage more or less.

Mike

Case closed.

 

[in_my_time_of_disease]

tbh one of the things I love about Opeth is the fact that Mike's influences are not only from a lot of my favorite bands, but he takes lots of elements from other bands that I love and blends it all together, while brining something new to the table.

 

[JonesyAZ]

I totally agree. The first album I bought was "My Arms, Your Hearse" shorty after it's release. Back then, all I had been listening to was early thrash, black death metal and grindcore, but was beginning to listen to Norwegian Black Metal like Emperor and Dimmu Borgir, and came across this Opeth record. My first impression was that the production was deep and somewhat blackened in it's approach...then the acoustic guitars came in, which totally suprised me. But when Mikael first started his clean singing on that track, I seriously burst into tears. And ever since, I have followed this band religiously!

 

[The Morrigan]

So does Mike have two accounts here?

 

[Kalabalik]

Yes, one for on his home computer with a Swedish keyboard that has the Å character and one for his laptop for touring

 

[Frosties]

One of the things that impresses me is that he takes influences from bands that I don't like, and uses them in ways that I end up liking.

 

[russiaonice]

I didn't ever really care about this, but sometimes its just so blatant that it annoys me. It makes me think that, given how obscure Mike's taste in music is, how much stuff does he "borrow" that we'll never know about. Don't get me wrong, I still love the band... but its just really bad form I think. The thing that sparked this was the new cover "Den Standiga Resan" at 0:15 onwards. Compare it to 6:28 in To bid you farewell.

"Lesser artists borrow, great artists steal" ~ Igor Stravinsky

 

[Labyrinth of Blindness]

One of the things that impresses me is that he takes influences from bands that I don't like, and uses them in ways that I end up liking.

so true.