Guess you know that article

[Planetary Eulogy]

It's an absurd statement to make, nonetheless. You can't precisely draw the line between a piece of art created to express a heartfelt reaction to the state of the world in the form of social or political commentary and one created dispassionately without firsthand knowledge of the creator's intent.

Who needs 'firsthand knowledge' when anyone with half a brain and a knowledge of art can deduce intent from the work itself? (Something the writers of LotFP do all the time, it should be noted).

 

[Zealotry]

Humor me. Are Napalm Death and Sodom 'propaganda' in your mind, too?

 

[BenMech]

Who cares? Leave the troll alone and he'll go away.

 

[Planetary Eulogy]

Humor me. Are Napalm Death and Sodom 'propaganda' in your mind, too?

Sodom's best material is apolitical, and operates mostly at a mythological level. Their later shit sucks, so who really cares?

Napalm Death is a little different. Their early material (up through, say, Fear, Emptiness, Despair) certainly has political content, but it is of a highly personalized nature, a politics of alienation, if you will. Some of their more recent efforts are quite a bit more propagandistic in their leanings, and, not coincidentally, suck shit.

 

[Zealotry]

give me a fucking break.

 

[Planetary Eulogy]

You keep playing bullshit 'gotcha' games instead of engaging in honest discussion, why should I give you a break? You haven't earned it, kid.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Sodom's best material is apolitical, and operates mostly at a mythological level.

You call defamations of the Watchtower Society, songs about exhibitonists in the park and rubber dolls mythology?...and have you ever read the lyrics to "Ausgebombt"?

Napalm Death is a little different. Their early material (up through, say, Fear, Emptiness, Despair) certainly has political content, but it is of a highly personalized nature, a politics of alienation, if you will. Some of their more recent efforts are quite a bit more propagandistic in their leanings, and, not coincidentally, suck shit.

Your arguments are none at all. It is purely subjective judgement clad in verbal hot air. Your opinion claims to be the only validated one because you are so smug, but not because you have any substantial things to say.
This band sucks because they are preaching in their lyrics? - Texts have an impact on the music in ND's case - a music that has not undergone any groundbreaking changes throughout time? - Hmmm..

What makes guys like you waste their time arguing with people that will never share your opinions anyway? You won't convert anybody here to adapt whatever warped views on the world, metal and the rest.

Aren't there enough things like the Vanguard News Network on the web for you to indulge in your own true-bred self?

 

[Planetary Eulogy]

You call defamations of the Watchtower Society, songs about exhibitonists in the park and rubber dolls mythology?...and have you ever read the lyrics to "Ausgebombt"?

1. Sodom's best days were gone by the time they got around to Agent Orange.

2. Even most of THAT album deals with war at a mythological or personal level, rather than adopting a political stance (rather like the approach of Bolt Thrower, really).

3. Their post Agent Orange material is uniformly awful, so why even bother bringing it into the discussion?

Your arguments are none at all. It is purely subjective judgement clad in verbal hot air.

And your arguments aren't? So far, I've advanced the argument that art exists to express a creative and personal impulse, and that political didacticism subverts this purpose and destroys 'art' as such. You and Zealotry seem to think that, somehow, referencing artists who have touched on the political in their works invalidates the reading of 'art' I propose, despite the fact that such references don't even address the issue I raised.

Your opinion claims to be the only validated one because you are so smug

Do you even read your own posts? You and your buddy Zealotry have been unfailingly smug throughout this entire discussion, and you have the fucking gall to accuse ME of hiding behind smugness? Your entire participation in this discourse has consisted of "don't feed the trolls" and a pompous, long-winded denunciation of my rhetorical approach. Yet I am somehow the 'smug' one. Get off your imaginary horse, you cocksucking retard.

This band sucks because they are preaching in their lyrics?

They suck because they have subordinated art to a didactic impulse. The 'preaching' and the 'sucking' are related, but the one doesn't cause the other. Both are consequences of the band's rejection of art in favor of propaganda.

Texts have an impact on the music in ND's case - a music that has not undergone any groundbreaking changes throughout time? - Hmmm..

This is semantically ambiguous. Do you mean to imply that Napalm Death's musical approach has not substantially changed over the course of their career (an argument that is demonstrably untrue) or that Napalm Death's music has changed over the years (which is, of course, true, but has no inherent qualitative relevance)

What makes guys like you waste their time arguing with people that will never share your opinions anyway? You won't convert anybody here to adapt whatever warped views on the world, metal and the rest.

What makes you or Dave or Jim waste your time? I mean, seriously, compared the amount of time invested by the LotFP staff in constructing massive tomes with which very few metal fans agree, how can I be seen to 'waste' the 20 or 30 minutes of my time I devote weekly to debating people on these forums? Dave probably spent weeks - even months - researching, writing and redacting his last major piece. To what end? So he could have the satisfaction of hundreds of Roadrunner kiddies bitching about it? So he could be mocked by the handful of old elitist hands left on the net? The idea that people enter into discussion solely (or even primarily) to change the minds of their opponents is ludicrous. I guess we shouldn't hold any more Presidential debates, eh? I mean, after all, George Bush probably didn't go in and pull the lever for John Kerry...

 

[Occam's Razor]

Your ego has frightening dimensions.

I take that cocksucker personally.

 

[Some Bastard]

Don't you LotFP-guys think it's a bit silly to accuse other people of smugness? None of you peeps are anyone's idea of 'modest' and on top of that you're pretty selective in your responses

 

[DBB]

Art exists first and foremost as an expression of the creative will: it is the transcendence of reality through symbolic creation and re-creation.

Do you live in garret and being constantly browbeaten by your landlady. If not, you probably should move into one with the slumlady being an optional accessory. You often sound like a low-rent Raskolnikov.

Product, which includes both commercial ('entertainment') and ideological ('propaganda') expressions, exists primarily to advance a goal external to the creative spirit itself.

This is just damn fucking silly. Your concept of art smacks of the “oceanic” feeling Freud discarded as the source of religion and has absolutely no roots in reality. Where does this “creative spirit” originate from? Some magical and mystical force which falls on the heads of believers like a Pentecostal flame?

The idea that you can have a debate between what is personal art and what is political art is a fallacy. It would be easy for someone, as you have done here, to reduce every piece of creative imagination to something personal. Conversely, it would be equally easy for someone to reduce every artistic impulse to something political.

It is because the two intermingle and wrap so seamlessly around one another that to disentangle the two is impossible. There is no need to carry either side to excess, but that the personal is political and the political is personal are elementary axioms that anyone who has taken a deep look at the world around them should know.

“Political” has become a word that is automatically discarded in today’s sensitive age as being too partisan or having to do with trite and useless dichotomies of the blue and red state variety. People inundated by a therapeutic culture to go with the flow and not make any waves while consuming blanch at any sort of disharmony that upsets them and, unfortunately, politics has been reduced to an annoyance or a hindrance to having your Whopper your way or tapping into the transcendental creative spirit embodied in the some crackpot’s inner Spear of Destiny.

What is ironic about this is that this exactly what career politicians want you to think of politics. That it is something inherently base and venal and anything that comes into contact with it is corrupted. The argument you are making here, Mr. MacLaurie, is the same one that politicos made when women were attempting to win the right to vote. More voters, regardless of whether they are female or male, and people paying attention complicate the electoral picture with matters that have not been vetted or polled and politicians are more than happy to have people think that politics is a contagious disease to quarantine themselves from, because they know all about what constitutes politics--power. The power to define reality in spite of the ideas of a cowed majority, the power to apportion resources and finances in whatever way they see fit, the power to shape and influence your life whilst you’re sitting on a fanatical (oops…I meant fantastical) bucolic narcissistic mountaintop composing a pan flute symphony that will bring tears to the eyes of ethereal and personal muses.

Art is created on cultural, social and economic terrains that are shaped by the power wielded by those who control the “political” levers though violence, by hook and crook or persuasive rhetorical sleight of hand tricks--to act as if this all does not exist and that there is some free-floating artistic spirit which will die when it intersects with any of these impulses is not only foolhardy but also dangerous.

I am beginning to wander again, however, and need to come back down from my mountaintop before Clio takes me in her gossamer-clad embrace and spirits me to a place where I can make art free from all corporal taint.

So here is an example to prove the point that sent me to rambling. You could argue that Bolt Thrower is using war in a purely personal fashion detached from any politics, and I could argue that the band is purely political, but the reality is that it is a mixture of both. And although the impulses wax and wane in relative intensity--one never exists without the other.

rather like the approach of Bolt Thrower, really

Here are some lyrics from “Entrenched” (Man…I would like to give Those Once Loyal a spin right now…but it is buried in a box--awe-inspiring album!)

In defeat triumphant
In the face of massed adversity
In a world of compromise
...Some don't.

This could be interpreted as an example of the unsullied will you cite above as being the pinnacle of the creative spirit. In fact, the whole song carries on in this vein and is a meditation on fighting in the face of overwhelming adversity without any hope for victory--but doing so anyway and crowning yourself in glory in the process. A more potent example of conviction and will in heavy metal would be hard to find, and it comes across in everything related to Bolt Thrower.

Yet this is not some airy tale told to venerate the creative spirit and it is certainly not a piece of apolitical art--it is deeply rooted in the industry power relations (incredibly political) and a commentary on succeeding despite the all the bullshit machinations of the industry and the shit-ass treatment Bolt Thrower received from Earache Records. Also, it is not a purely personal tale of victory, but a rallying cry for others to observe and learn things from instead of some solipsistic palaver created for some rarefied selfish purposes.

What makes you or Dave or Jim waste your time? I mean, seriously, compared the amount of time invested by the LotFP staff in constructing massive tomes with which very few metal fans agree, how can I be seen to 'waste' the 20 or 30 minutes of my time I devote weekly to debating people on these forums? Dave probably spent weeks - even months - researching, writing and redacting his last major piece. To what end? So he could have the satisfaction of hundreds of Roadrunner kiddies bitching about it? So he could be mocked by the handful of old elitist hands left on the net?

This is such an ignorant and uninformed rant that I am not going to dignify it with a response. You need to be more creative and inventive if you really want to get me to run to the end of my chain, Mr. MacLaurie. Just because things in your overheated garret appear a certain way, they do not become true--no matter how many times you repeat the lines.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Don't you LotFP-guys think it's a bit silly to accuse other people of smugness? None of you peeps are anyone's idea of 'modest' and on top of that you're pretty selective in your responses

I don't know how "we" appear to you: We are no organization or the three musketeers of metal. We do not hold any claims to an aboslute truth or absolute taste about metal, because it does not exist. We only have an opinion, but even that is not a common one. There is no agenda or plans of a crusade against "bad taste". I respect Dave for his knowledge and eloquence, but I by no means share his tastes, which goes for Jim as well. I actually have not met any of them in person yet, so it would be silly to suggest anything deeper about their persona than such superficialities as musical preferences. Probably we would kill one another after a certain time together in one room, who knows?

This said, I don't know why it is obviously not appreciated that people put their thoughts together in a profound and detailed way on a topic they feel passionate about, and on the other hand, why badly written fan- or webzines are accepted.

Jim has been doing this for more than eight years now - it's serious, and the affirmation LotFP gets outweighs the flak coming from incorrigibles like you. As I repeatedly said: I don't understand why you are so zealous about this all if your views are fundamental from what the magazine stands for.

In my opinion, Lamentations has a more exciting concept (becauswe it is vague) than other zines that exist on the now small market for independent prints; it is well written; it is no cash-in; finally, it is concise in that whatever you will read in there will give you a clear-cut statement that is not lip-synching promo departments of labels or currying to musicians that are too comfortable in their own skin. All you get is an opinion, and it appears that some people cannot cope with the fact that others may not agree with them and therefore get personal, unfair or annoying with their pseudo-profound political and philosophical knowledge.
After all, you do not have the whole picture in case you are judging only from the zine's web presence.

 

[Some Bastard]

I don't know how "we" appear to you: We are no organization or the three musketeers of metal. We do not hold any claims to an aboslute truth or absolute taste about metal, because it does not exist. We only have an opinion, but even that is not a common one. There is no agenda or plans of a crusade against "bad taste". I respect Dave for his knowledge and eloquence, but I by no means share his tastes, which goes for Jim as well. I actually have not met any of them in person yet, so it would be silly to suggest anything deeper about their persona than such superficialities as musical preferences. Probably we would kill one another after a certain time together in one room, who knows?

Maybe not, but you do seem somewhat protective to one another. I can't help finding mr. DBB's conspiracy theories and endless talk about 'consequences', and 'implications' screamingly funny and so naturally I joke about that. No harm in that, is there? Yet there you are, wagging your finger about my supposed 'insinuations'. Jeez, lighten up, will you?

This said, I don't know why it is obviously not appreciated that people put their thoughts together in a profound and detailed way on a topic they feel passionate about, and on the other hand, why badly written fan- or webzines are accepted.

I think it's mainly because your overly pretentious writings are still just the literary equivalent of those fanboy-letters I mentioned earlier. Style over substance. Narrowminded viewpoints are still narrowminded viewpoints, no matter how well-written they are. I've seen badly written webzines that are still more knowledgeable about Heavy Metal and/or music as a whole than LotFP. And in the end that's what counts.

Jim has been doing this for more than eight years now - it's serious, and the affirmation LotFP gets outweighs the flak coming from incorrigibles like you. As I repeatedly said: I don't understand why you are so zealous about this all if your views are fundamental from what the magazine stands for.

I've noticed that. A tendency to suck up to people that praise you and getting defensive at your critics. In short, you don't have room for an alternate viewpoint. And you're calling me incorrigible. That's rich

In my opinion, Lamentations has a more exciting concept (becauswe it is vague) than other zines that exist on the now small market for independent prints; it is well written; it is no cash-in; finally, it is concise in that whatever you will read in there will give you a clear-cut statement that is not lip-synching promo departments of labels or currying to musicians that are too comfortable in their own skin. All you get is an opinion, and it appears that some people cannot cope with the fact that others may not agree with them and therefore get personal, unfair or annoying with their pseudo-profound political and philosophical knowledge.
After all, you do not have the whole picture in case you are judging only from the zine's web presence.

You're shamelessly blowing your own trumpet here and call other people 'smug'

There's plenty of zines who do that (not being cash-ins, not lip-synching promo departments etc) but you probably think they are of no value because they're 'badly written'

Well, have fun preaching to the converted and your little 'incrowd'. Then I'll have my fun too

If anyone of you LotFP-guys wants to answer with a long-winded essay please don't bother

 

[BenMech]

I've called Dave on his narrow mind and his bullshit, but he's also provided some details I hadn't previously known. I've known Jim off and on since 1998. I still don't know Andreas and I don't trust what he says/thinks.

However, none of the above are Anus board trolls.

 

[Occam's Razor]

I still don't know Andreas and I don't trust what he says/thinks.

Well, you got me - I am a liar with every word I say.

 

[Jim LotFP]

I still don't know Andreas and I don't trust what he says/thinks.

He's only been writing for the site for... what, two years? heh.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Maybe not, but you do seem somewhat protective to one another.

I don' know, but people that work together on a certain level should not be backstabbers. Also, there is a difference between agreeing 100% to what Dave writes and defending the aspects of his writing I myself deem plausible. It is not that as soon as Dave was attacked here, Jim and me jumped right in to protect him.

I think it's mainly because your overly pretentious writings are still just the literary equivalent of those fanboy-letters I mentioned earlier. Style over substance. Narrowminded viewpoints are still narrowminded viewpoints, no matter how well-written they are. I've seen badly written webzines that are still more knowledgeable about Heavy Metal and/or music as a whole than LotFP. And in the end that's what counts.

You could clarify what writings you mean exactly. On the one hand, you say they are narrow-minded, but on the other, they are verbose. I would like to know how familiar you really are with our writings - mine being actually very few. The early ones...I am not happy with them, to be honest. The largest part is obviously Jim's and then Dave's lengthy (yes, they are) essays.

I've noticed that. A tendency to suck up to people that praise you and getting defensive at your critics. In short, you don't have room for an alternate viewpoint.

Again, examples? - where do you read that alternate views aren't allowed? Moreover, I wonder what "pretentiousness" means to you. Nobody is pretending anything here.

You're shamelessly blowing your own trumpet here and call other people 'smug'

If being convinced of one's doings and caring to do properly what one wants to means smugness, then maybe.

There's plenty of zines who do that (not being cash-ins, not lip-synching promo departments etc) but you probably think they are of no value because they're 'badly written'

Definitely not! I still get my regular dose of Snakepit, but you have to agree that crap that is crappily written on top of it prevails.

Well, have fun preaching to the converted and your little 'incrowd'. Then I'll have my fun too

See? It's all cynicism you fall back to in the end, and you judge people's personalities from their writing. Strange that what I have read from your statements so far makes me think that we are not so far apart as you assume. Speaking for myself, my own view on music of any sort is more sober than Jim's I think. I do not interpret that much into lyrics as he does, for example, and in case there is a tendency for conspiration theories in Dave's writing, I would not share that as well. I do have an opinion though about things that go awry in metal. You seem to be aware of those as well, and your only complaint about what we do is: we care about them (heating that concern up to a "passion" that makes us appear like crusaders...), and you call them off with indifference and cynicism as long as you can enjoy the music.

So was this essay long enough?

 

[Some Bastard]

You could clarify what writings you mean exactly. On the one hand, you say they are narrow-minded, but on the other, they are verbose. I would like to know how familiar you really are with our writings - mine being actually very few. The early ones...I am not happy with them, to be honest. The largest part is obviously Jim's and then Dave's lengthy (yes, they are) essays.

I haven't read any of your writings. I'm adressing you as part of the LotFP-team. Maybe I shouldn't do that

Again, examples? - where do you read that alternate views aren't allowed? Moreover, I wonder what "pretentiousness" means to you. Nobody is pretending anything here.

Examples enough in some other threads, not neccesarily by you but some of your colleagues.

Pretentious
- The silly 'uncoverings' by DBB
- All those petty rules about what is or isn't to be called Heavy Metal
- Thinking that you're saying something new (although this could be ascribed to ignorance as well) when it's just the same purist fanboy whining that's been going on for years (I have the fanzines to prove it - piles of 'em - and I'm not pretending) but giving it an air of importance by so-called 'good' writing
- Acting as if it's actually important if someone chooses to call Boris, Sunn0))) or Wolfmother Heavy Metal. Puh-leeze! Grow up, will ya?

And most importantly: claiming that Heavy Metal is a 'living breathing organism'. Well, if that's how you feel guys, why the insistence on putting said organism in a cage? NEWSFLASH: Living, breathing organism do not belong in cages! They should be free to roam out in the wild, interacting and co-mingling with other breathing, living organisms. But nooooo, then it wouldn't be Heavy Metal anymore *yawn*

"I am obsessed with the idea of writing that will still be as true in five years as it is now" your colleague writes. Well, forget it kiddo! I have no doubt you mean well but with viewpoints like yours your writing is instantly dating as we speak and will be looked upon (if at all) with slight bemusement years from now ("gee, the things they got worked up about back then")

See? It's all cynicism you fall back to in the end, and you judge people's personalities from their writing. Strange that what I have read from your statements so far makes me think that we are not so far apart as you assume. Speaking for myself, my own view on music of any sort is more sober than Jim's I think. I do not interpret that much into lyrics as he does, for example, and in case there is a tendency for conspiration theories in Dave's writing, I would not share that as well. I do have an opinion though about things that go awry in metal. You seem to be aware of those as well, and your only complaint about what we do is: we care about them (heating that concern up to a "passion" that makes us appear like crusaders...), and you call them off with indifference and cynicism as long as you can enjoy the music.

No, I judge people's writings from their writings. Excuse me if I come across a bit harsh and you're probably all very nice in real life and all that but I get very impatient with this kind of narrowmindedness. Having a limited taste in/view on music I can understand, pouring those limited views in an 'essay' and claiming this is the only proper Heavy Metal, well..... I did call myself Some Bastard for a reason you know

My complaint is not your 'caring' for them. My complaint is the narrow viewpoints from some of you, and the overt romanticizing that comes with it.

I've said it before but you guys insist on ignoring it: Where you guys choose to see musical borders I see a grey area, which I think makes a lot more sense. Musical rules are not etched in stone, nor should they be. That doesn't mean I don't 'care'.

 

[Occam's Razor]

My complaint is not your 'caring' for them. My complaint is the narrow viewpoints from some of you, and the overt romanticizing that comes with it.

I've said it before but you guys insist on ignoring it: Where you guys choose to see musical borders I see a grey area, which I think makes a lot more sense. Musical rules are not etched in stone, nor should they be. That doesn't mean I don't 'care'.

Not to advertise here in any way, but perhaps you should get a copy of a print issue of Lamentations. This would relativize your opinion. I also see that Dave's stuff has had a lot of impact on the overall picture people get from the magazine (Scum of course, too, which is indeed hammering down laws and regulations - but I know that this hasn't been done by Jim for anything else but to provoke reaactions. It makes you think about what it actually is we are talking about when referring to metal).

About the "romanticising": I have spoken for myself already about my relative distance to that, and I can only say that both Dave and Jim are grown-ups with a firm hold in life that is not restricted to their music. Their lifes would not fall to pieces if their image of metal did.

"Narrow-mindedness": Again - read current and past issues. You will see Jim talking positively with and about Shadows Fall; you will see him appreciate electronics in his metal; he will recommend some 70s prog to you and even sick folk music like Comus. That is not the rule even for some newsstand publications. We (if I may speak collectively, as the others seem to be tired of debating with you) are not dogmatic...

I feel silly for justifying myself here as if at some strange court..."Don't blame me, I actually do like more music than just metal...". "No, my friends are very unprejudiced people as well, they even don't do drugs."

Man, it's utterly ridiculous: war in the East, attempted terrorism in Europe, and a forum that does not physically exist where people try to carry their pointless points home.

 

[Some Bastard]

Man, it's utterly ridiculous: war in the East, attempted terrorism in Europe, and a forum that does not physically exist where people try to carry their pointless points home.

Hmm, I was going to say something along those lines (war in the east, people dying of starvation everywhere, and here people debating whether something is or isn't Heavy Metal) but I didn't wanna sound pretentious

If Jim's only intention was to provoke reactions I can only say he succeeded because then I fell like a sucker for it

Anyway, if they recommend stuff like Comus (who are brilliant btw) maybe you do have a point and I'll need to check out a printed copy of LotFP. I'll think about it.