Guitar recording : different guitar, amp... between left and right side

[Sly]

I have to record the guitars for one of my bands, which is kind of melodic death metal.
We have the following gear that we can use : LTD EC-1000 (EMG pickups), Gibson SG Standard (passive pickups from Gibson), Framus Cobra, 5150, Mesa Oversized cab, OD-820.

We did a lots of tests during the last weekend and we came to the conclusion that we will record only one track per side (no quadtracking) for tightness.
At the moment I'd like to do the following :
- left side : EC-1000 into 5150 boosted (tighter and more agressive)
- right side : SG into 5150 boosted (bassier with more growl)

The Framus sounds awesome too but I'm afraid that if we use a different amp per side, it would sound a bit too different. Using the same amp on both sides but two different guitars should get us in the "different sound but not too different" ballpark.

What do you think guys ? What do you advise me to do ? How do you track your guitars amp/guitar-wise ?


I did a quick tone test with the EC-1000 into my boosted 5150 on both sides, it's too gainy and played untight but sounds cool anyway (lowering the gain and maybe the presence a bit and I should be happy)

 

[cobhc]

I've personally never liked the idea of having a different amp per side, or even a different guitar or settings, or player! To me it's too distracting, I'd rather have one guitarist play all the rhythms through the same guitar, same amp and same settings, and only involve different players/guitars/amp/settings when you're quad tracking, and tracking a second set of L/R panned guitars to thicken it up.

 

[Incognito Man]

I've personally never liked the idea of having a different amp per side, or even a different guitar or settings, or player! To me it's too distracting, I'd rather have one guitarist play all the rhythms through the same guitar, same amp and same settings, and only involve different players/guitars/amp/settings when you're quad tracking, and tracking a second set of L/R panned guitars to thicken it up.

amen, and i thought i was the only one that felt this way.

 

[qwe]

i think you have great sound, its just a matter of choice for paning, for me it sounds distracting too... i love your drums though x)

 

[Metaltastic]

I've personally never liked the idea of having a different amp per side, or even a different guitar or settings, or player! To me it's too distracting, I'd rather have one guitarist play all the rhythms through the same guitar, same amp and same settings, and only involve different players/guitars/amp/settings when you're quad tracking, and tracking a second set of L/R panned guitars to thicken it up.

I see where you're coming from, but I've heard tons of recordings where the tone sounds even and full, but in sections where opposite sides play, there are noticeable differences that make it really cool IMO!

 

[cobhc]

Wow, you Americans and your crazy ideas!

 

[Nuno Filipe]

I always use different amps in both sides. There are kind of amps that fits really great and there others that will sound like shit. It´s a matter of equalization between the both sides too. With some work I think 2 different amps could be much more rewarding in terms of sound.

 

[chonchball]

I've personally never liked the idea of having a different amp per side, or even a different guitar or settings, or player! To me it's too distracting, I'd rather have one guitarist play all the rhythms through the same guitar, same amp and same settings, and only involve different players/guitars/amp/settings when you're quad tracking, and tracking a second set of L/R panned guitars to thicken it up.

This results in Big Mono rather than Stereo. The purpose of stereo is the difference of what is happening from left to right. The more equal it is, the more it draws the separated parts back to the center.

If it works for you, it works for you, but for others, I would advise at LEAST switching up the tone of the amp a little bit. Like change the mids and the treble and the bass by like 2 notches each and just make sure that the tone still sounds balanced, but different. Like a slice of pepperoni pizza and a piece of sausage pizza.

 

[Nuno Filipe]

This results in Big Mono rather than Stereo. The purpose of stereo is the difference of what is happening from left to right. The more equal it is, the more it draws the separated parts back to the center.

I dont agree with that. What makes a stereo is the differences between 2 or more waveforms and even with the same amps and settings if he record at least two times the same riff he will have a stereo sound.

 

[Plec]

When I record guitars, I want to end up with a tight wall of sound and that will only happen with a certain amount of symmetry. If only double tracking it's one player and the same setup for both sides. If quad tracking it will either be the same setup for everything or something different for the other two tracks, but always symmetric and only one player... always.

 

[ze kink]

I like having both sides different. Actually, I mostly do it like you're afraid to do it, so only double tracked with different guitar/amp (though often with the same cab)/player on each side. Also completely hard panned. Call me weird, but I like how it sounds

 

[DanLights]

To me it depends, really. Having slightly different signal chains on each side (different guitar, different amp, or different amp setting) gives it a more old-school kind of sound, and really gives more personality to the guitars since you feel it is two people playing them. Of course for a more wall of sound type of thing it should be equal on both sides, a more modern perfectionist type of sound.

 

[DaWolf]

I have different amps/settings per side as well. The processing on the stereo bus glues them together usually.

 

[chonchball]

I dont agree with that. What makes a stereo is the differences between 2 or more waveforms and even with the same amps and settings if he record at least two times the same riff he will have a stereo sound.

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't know that your opinion was stronger than the laws of physics.

in metal, the point of the guitars, especially with wide panned rhythm guitars is to make them metronomically perfect with each other and with the percussive elements, like pistons in an engine. therefore, in theory the transients of the pick strokes should align within 3 to 5 milliseconds.

if you are recording the takes the way you should and using the same amp settings, even though the variances are there, they will be SLIGHT and therefore will not define themselves in the stereo field as much as if you are using different source material sound, such as a different mic setup or slighty different amp settings.

Two identical mono signals panned hard left and hard right will cancel each other at 180 degrees. How do you think they remove vocals for karaoke CDs? it's the same principle in reverse. the center image flips phase and thus cancels itself out in the center. This is not to say that your wide panned guitars will COMPLETELY cancel each other out, but the phase relationship is extremely similar thus decreasing the EFFECT of how they are spread in the spectrum. If you change up the tone, and thereby the frequency of the waveform, you will achieve a much greater stereo effect.

If your tracks sound "wide enough" by using the same exact settings from L to R, then it's probably just a result of the takes having not very tight performance / edits. right?

 

[Nuno Filipe]

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't know that your opinion was stronger than the laws of physics.

in metal, the point of the guitars, especially with wide panned rhythm guitars is to make them metronomically perfect with each other and with the percussive elements, like pistons in an engine. therefore, in theory the transients of the pick strokes should align within 3 to 5 milliseconds.

if you are recording the takes the way you should and using the same amp settings, even though the variances are there, they will be SLIGHT and therefore will not define themselves in the stereo field as much as if you are using different source material sound, such as a different mic setup or slighty different amp settings.

Two identical mono signals panned hard left and hard right will cancel each other at 180 degrees. How do you think they remove vocals for karaoke CDs? it's the same principle in reverse. the center image flips phase and thus cancels itself out in the center. This is not to say that your wide panned guitars will COMPLETELY cancel each other out, but the phase relationship is extremely similar thus decreasing the EFFECT of how they are spread in the spectrum. If you change up the tone, and thereby the frequency of the waveform, you will achieve a much greater stereo effect.

If your tracks sound "wide enough" by using the same exact settings from L to R, then it's probably just a result of the takes having not very tight performance / edits. right?

Dont take me wrong but what I said is just a statement of my experience.
I think we disagree only about the definition of stereo and what I said about the waveforms it´s not wrong, well was what I learned. But for an example, if we want to record a stereo sound we need two microphones and why? because they same signal have differences in the waveform of each microphone. To me that small diferences make a stereo to you a big mono. To me a mono signal it´s all equal on the both sides. But I agree with you that different amps and settings make a big and wide stereo.

 

[qwe]

correct me if am wrong... you guys record one track for like 100 left than copy it and pan it 70 left, thats one side... left side...
than whole another take with slightly modified amp settings for 100 right and copy that take and pan it 70 right... right side...
so you have one sound for 100 left and 70 left, and difrent take and slightly modified sound for right 70 and right 100?
i ask this cause if there is just one guitar in the band... how you do that? one sound, one take, for both left right? quadtracked or not?

 

[chonchball]

Um... you might want to read up on mono and stereo then. I'm not flamin' you. I'm just sayin'. There's not really a "to me" and "to you" when it comes to mono and stereo. It's physical properties of our world.

wiki stereo.

 

[chonchball]

correct me if am wrong... you guys record one track for like 100 left than copy it and pan it 70 left, thats one side... left side...
than whole another take with slightly modified amp settings for 100 right and copy that take and pan it 70 right... right side...
so you have one sound for 100 left and 70 left, and difrent take and slightly modified sound for right 70 and right 100?
i ask this cause if there is just one guitar in the band... how you do that? one sound, one take, for both left right? quadtracked or not?

quadTRACKED means quadtracked, not double tracked, double copied. If you want that many rhythm tracks, you need to play it so that the copies don't cancel each other out. If you just copy audio, all you achieve is a +3db boost in your overall mix.

 

[cobhc]

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't know that your opinion was stronger than the laws of physics.

in metal, the point of the guitars, especially with wide panned rhythm guitars is to make them metronomically perfect with each other and with the percussive elements, like pistons in an engine. therefore, in theory the transients of the pick strokes should align within 3 to 5 milliseconds.

if you are recording the takes the way you should and using the same amp settings, even though the variances are there, they will be SLIGHT and therefore will not define themselves in the stereo field as much as if you are using different source material sound, such as a different mic setup or slighty different amp settings.

Two identical mono signals panned hard left and hard right will cancel each other at 180 degrees. How do you think they remove vocals for karaoke CDs? it's the same principle in reverse. the center image flips phase and thus cancels itself out in the center. This is not to say that your wide panned guitars will COMPLETELY cancel each other out, but the phase relationship is extremely similar thus decreasing the EFFECT of how they are spread in the spectrum. If you change up the tone, and thereby the frequency of the waveform, you will achieve a much greater stereo effect.

If your tracks sound "wide enough" by using the same exact settings from L to R, then it's probably just a result of the takes having not very tight performance / edits. right?

It's the slight nuances in playing that create the stereo spectrum. By your definition any album with the same guitar sound on both channels sounds mono. So all of Andy Sneap's albums have guitars that sound mono to you, and none of them sound wide? Because I can't think of ANY album Andy has mixed where there is a different guitar tone on each side! He may combine amps where he'll have 2 tracks of a recto and 2 of a 5150, but the panning will be like this:-

Left Channel 5150 L Recto L
Right Channel 5150 R Recto R

I think you need to check your law of physics and get your ears tested at the same time. And to be clear, we mean 4 SEPARATE TAKES, no copying involved!

 

[GarethSE]

http://files.getdropbox.com/u/631208/Robbie Final.mp3
identical settings on each side would like to have a word with you

what makes shit sound wide is those minute differences in the playing, literally the 3-5ms shit you proclaimed shit should be pocketed to, not different fucking amp settings. that'll make your guitars sound more interesting if done right, but it isnt as huge a fucking difference as you proclaim it to be.
and hell if the same settings on both sides is good enough for andy sneap, its good enough for me. And don't get me wrong, you seem to generally know your shit, you do good mixes, but this just seems pretty fucking moronic on your part.
And just for posterity, I was making a Revalver preset for Ryan earlier, so I loaded up the project file (of the mix i linked to funnily enough) and swapped out 7170 on the left channel for revalver, dialled in a tone, saved it as a preset and sent it to ryan. just out of curiosity for how the 2 different amp sims and settings would sound together, i turned up that guitar track until the volumes were equal, i heard very little difference between either. it was no more stereo sounding than it did before, and according to you, it should do? you say "BUT ITS A DIGITAL VST AMP SIM MAAAAN" and i'll slap you. it was no less stereo sounding either. it didn't even sound all that different, and if im being honest, the ever so slightly different high end coming frm the left speaker was annoying me a little bit.

Tell us to learn our shit all you want, but I think it's you who needs to learn your shit.