Guitar soloing- scale help

They sound correct as far as whoever tabbed them out goes.I know this is getting long-winded but my question is , how do you guys usually go about figuring out what scale to follow? Some guitarists have told me they just play whatever sounds right, but what about if I want to harmonize it? Having the scale in front of me makes that so much easier. So can anyone explain what I should do in basic terms that I can understand? Thanks in advance for any help!

Hey there JayB. I don't know how much help this will be to you but it's important not to consider music theory as rules. Music theory is merely a list of the conventions that have developed in western music over the last 1-2000 years. At most you might consider them as guidelines but the best advice I can think of is simply to use your ears and play whatever you think sounds right. The same applies with harmonising - there are conventions, yes, but there are no right or wrong ways of doing things. Just allow your mind's ear to work its magic.

For your interest -

Anyway, here's a very basic tab of what I'm trying to solo over.

d|-------------------------------------------------------------
A|------------------------------------------------------------
F|------------------------------------------------------------
C|--0-0-0-----3-3-3-----7-7-7------3-3-3----2-2-2----0-0-0---------
G|--0-0-0-----3-3-3-----7-7-7------3-3-3----2-2-2----0-0-0---------
C|--0-0-0-----3-3-3-----7-7-7------3-3-3----2-2-2----0-0-0-----

Nice!... This sequence is quite open to interpretation but I'd be inclined to suggest trying C_Dorian mode (scale) here. You'll get the C_Minor aspect from it, but the scale also includes a major 6th (A) which will meet your DAD chord, fifth along in the sequence. The Dorian mode isn't particularly metal to my mind - it has a laid back minor feel to it and was embraced extensively, and then perverted, by Bebop Jazz back in the day - but such things are subjective and how good a musical scale sounds probably depends on what a person does with it, musical context etc.

Failing that you could try regular C_Minor, C_Phrygian, C_Minor_Harmonic, even C_Blues, or any combinations thereof, depending on how far you wish to stray from strict harmonic convention.

Harmonising is harder to explain. A good starting point might be to do what others have suggested here and try moving your melodies up (or down) 3rds, 4ths, 5ths (within the scale you're working in!), but I think with time it will become clear that there are different styles of harmony and that certain kinds of melodies will lend themselves more favourably to certain harmony styles over others.

Anyway, this part ended up being a lot like Lamb of Gods The Passing, where at the end there is a harmonized lead and then the notes get held out and there's a transition.
Yes indeed, I believe the main body of that guitar part was in an unidentified species of E_Minor, though the occasional A Major chord that comes in hints at a Dorian mode, so yeh man - would definitely recommend the C_Dorian scale for your solo there.

Best of luck!
 


Hey there JayB. I don't know how much help this will be to you but it's important not to consider music theory as rules. Music theory is merely a list of the conventions that have developed in western music over the last 1-2000 years. At most you might consider them as guidelines but the best advice I can think of is simply to use your ears and play whatever you think sounds right. The same applies with harmonising - there are conventions, yes, but there are no right or wrong ways of doing things. Just allow your mind's ear to work its magic.

For your interest -



Nice!... This sequence is quite open to interpretation but I'd be inclined to suggest trying C_Dorian mode (scale) here. You'll get the C_Minor aspect from it, but the scale also includes a major 6th (A) which will meet your DAD chord, fifth along in the sequence. The Dorian mode isn't particularly metal to my mind - it has a laid back minor feel to it and was embraced extensively, and then perverted, by Bebop Jazz back in the day - but such things are subjective and how good a musical scale sounds probably depends on what a person does with it, musical context etc.

Failing that you could try regular C_Minor, C_Phrygian, C_Minor_Harmonic, even C_Blues, or any combinations thereof, depending on how far you wish to stray from strict harmonic convention.

Harmonising is harder to explain. A good starting point might be to do what others have suggested here and try moving your melodies up (or down) 3rds, 4ths, 5ths (within the scale you're working in!), but I think with time it will become clear that there are different styles of harmony and that certain kinds of melodies will lend themselves more favourably to certain harmony styles over others.


Yes indeed, I believe the main body of that guitar part was in an unidentified species of E_Minor, though the occasional A Major chord that comes in hints at a Dorian mode, so yeh man - would definitely recommend the C_Dorian scale for your solo there.

Best of luck!

Awesome, thanks for the tips! I feel like a big weight has been lifted off my shoulders as far as stressing over whether something is technically correct. Like you guys said, I'll just go for what sounds good to my ears.:worship:
 
This is something you should be able to know by just listening. If you need to check Guitar Pro than it means your ear isn't developed enough.
Once your ear gets to a certain point, you'll know automatically whether it's a minor natural, harmonic minor etc scale.
The guitar solo in Breathe Life fits PERFECTLY within C minor natural and I knew that before I even learned how to play it just by listening to it.
This goes to show the importance of developing and TRUSTING your ear rather using Guitar Pro as a band aid solution for a lack of theory knowledge/ear development.
 
Also, keep in mind with pentatonic, minor, major, you can already do a lot ! Then add the other flavors (harmonic minor, modes, blues etc) when you are comfortable with that
 
This is something you should be able to know by just listening. If you need to check Guitar Pro than it means your ear isn't developed enough.
Once your ear gets to a certain point, you'll know automatically whether it's a minor natural, harmonic minor etc scale.
The guitar solo in Breathe Life fits PERFECTLY within C minor natural and I knew that before I even learned how to play it just by listening to it.
This goes to show the importance of developing and TRUSTING your ear rather using Guitar Pro as a band aid solution for a lack of theory knowledge/ear development.

As I said before, the stuff I was coming up with DID sound good to my ears, but I scrapped it because it didn't match any scale in GP, therefore I thought I was doing something wrong. Now I know to just go with what sounds good to my ears- this is why I brought this topic up in the first place.

Also, I wasn't trying to use Guitar Pro as a crutch, but rather a learning tool, as honestly every other tool I've tried to use to learn music theory has gone so far over my head. With Guitar Pro I was happy because I could just look at a sheet of notes and get an idea of what I could do, but it seems like the scale tool within it is rather half assed.
 
-----C5---------Eb5------G5---------Eb5-------D5-------C5-----
d|-------------------------------------------------------------
A|------------------------------------------------------------
F|------------------------------------------------------------
C|--0-0-0-----3-3-3-----7-7-7------3-3-3----2-2-2----0-0-0---------
G|--0-0-0-----3-3-3-----7-7-7------3-3-3----2-2-2----0-0-0---------
C|--0-0-0-----3-3-3-----7-7-7------3-3-3----2-2-2----0-0-0-----
The chords:
C5 = C, G
Eb5 = Eb, Bb
G5 = G, D
D5 = D, A

Add the notes up:
C, D, Eb, X, G, A, Bb

Compare the number of flat notes to the Scales with flat key signatures-table here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_signature

The number of flat notes is equal to the key Bb major.
Bb major is Bb, C, D, Eb, F, G, A.

Your song hasn't defined a F on that part so you can sharpen, flatten or keep the F unaltered however you like. But you'll probably want to keep it unaltered because it's in line with Bb major and would be the most common choice.
 
As I said before, the stuff I was coming up with DID sound good to my ears, but I scrapped it because it didn't match any scale in GP, therefore I thought I was doing something wrong.

This is a terrible thing. Break this habit immediately. GP should never be a substitute for countless of books written by musicologist and theorist on the subject or doing the work yourself. It really undermines the process and their contributions as you are essentially turning on an "auto-analysis" function which completely negates context. Not very helpful imo.

At some point someone is going to tell you, "You can play any note over any chord when soloing" and they wouldn't be lying to you. That doesn't mean just play whatever over any given riff/progression/etc. Non-chord tones like suspensions, passing tones, neighbor groups/tones, chromatic neighbor tones, chromatic passing tones, appoggiaturas, escape tones, pedals, etc. can all be approached using notes in or outside of the key. You really have to practice your diatonic, non-diatonic modes/scales, etc. so you can get a sense of their flavor. Then you can mix, match, and warp fluently. The goal is to be able to play what you hear in your head on your instrument in an instant. But developing this skill takes years... In you case, you're just playing chords of omission (you're omitting the 3rd), otherwise known as power chords in rock/metal music. I would approach soloing over that riff by using a different mode/scale over each chord, which is similar to what a jazz guitarist might do. There are so many options though since you are leaving out the 3rd that I really cbf to write them all out. That should be your job if you really want to tackle this from every possible angle. As a general rule though, try and avoid landing on the root or fifth of any given chord if the bass is already playing it. Arpeggiate chords, make small musical motives interesting by playing variations on them, expanding them, change up the ending if you repeat a phrase, use syncopation, octave displacement, string skipping, bending, etc.. Keep it simple first. Most people don't realize how difficult it is to play a really good solo when you limit yourself to the bare essentials.
 
Btw, I'm taking the opportunity to ask if someone knows a book that covers most of musical theory, which would not be adressed to pure beginners but to someone who knows the basic things and would like to be fluent about it. Anyone ?
 
Btw, I'm taking the opportunity to ask if someone knows a book that covers most of musical theory, which would not be adressed to pure beginners but to someone who knows the basic things and would like to be fluent about it. Anyone ?

My favourite so far have been

Jazzology - Covers practically everything a guitarist needs (it's written for piano so you'll have to be able to read music for the example) and goes in depth about chord subsitution, scales and reharmonizing

[ame]http://www.amazon.co.uk/Jazzology-Encyclopedia-Jazz-Theory-Musicians/dp/0634086782/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1327621211&sr=8-1[/ame]

The other 2 I'd recommend are more classical orientated but DEFINITELY worth the read,

Arnold Schoenberg's 'Strucutural functions of harmony' - The hardest book I've ever read, it goes into extreme detail very fast and he doesn't explain some of the stuff so you have to be pretty on top of your game to understand a lot of it.

[ame]http://www.amazon.co.uk/Structural-Functions-Harmony-Arnold-Schoenberg/dp/0571196578/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1327621292&sr=1-1[/ame]

The other is;

Vincent Persichettis' '20th Century Harmony' - A classical book based on contemporary composition techniques. The first few pages are the usual stuff but after page 50 onwards for the next 250 pages are things you never really read about anywhere, also worth it.
This one comes with compositional exercises at the end of each chapter aswell to make it sink in which is a really good idea and motive.

[ame]http://www.amazon.co.uk/Twentieth-Century-Harmony-V-Persichetti/dp/0393095398/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1327621405&sr=1-1[/ame]
 
Not to disregard what Nick just said but I've been playing for 12 years know squat about modes and theory. I know what sounds good because I figured it out, not because I learned it. If that makes sense.

Just the other side of the coin.
 
Not to disregard what Nick just said but I've been playing for 12 years know squat about modes and theory. I know what sounds good because I figured it out, not because I learned it. If that makes sense.

Just the other side of the coin.

Well yeah, you always want to use your ears first, it's a given.. But I can 110% prove that if you know basic theory, you'll be a better guitar player TECHNICALLY, nothing to do with creativity, unless you are using cadences and other classical writing techniques.
 
Arnold Schoenberg's 'Strucutural functions of harmony' - The hardest book I've ever read, it goes into extreme detail very fast and he doesn't explain some of the stuff so you have to be pretty on top of your game to understand a lot of it.
Hello there, thank you, I will have to check that out. Schoenberg is an odd one. I've been slugging my way through Schenker's 'Harmony', 'Counterpoint', and another one entitled 'Free Composition' for a little while now. Would recommend them to yourself if you haven't checked them out, though I suspect LeSedna is looking for something a little easier on the lexicon, in which case I would recommend any "Complete History of Western Music"-type book. I've read a few of those in my time and they generally seem to give a good all-round accounting of music theory and will also detail the chronology of theoretical development, as well as giving colourful background information - historic, social, political etc.

Even if a person only ever intends to play one kind of metal etc. it is well worth developing an understanding of what happens in music outside of that genre.

Regards.
 
This is the standard at most schools here in the states for music theory 1-4 classes: [ame]http://www.amazon.com/Tonal-Harmony-Stefan-Kostka/dp/0073401358/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1327675147&sr=8-1[/ame]


Highly recommended for beginners. Get the workbook as well. Tbh, I think the best way to learn this stuff is with a really good instructor. There's so much misinformation online it's ridiculous. Most people learn a little bit and think they know it all. Anyway, that book is good until about chapter 26 or 27, which is when you get into the romantic and 20th century idioms. Those chapters just provide broad overviews, so you'll have to get another book if you want to study those periods, but you should only do so after you've mastered tonal harmony. "20th century compositional techniques" by Leon Dallin is really good and interesting. It's a little bit more geared towards composers who are looking to write in a modern or contemporary idiom. Kostka's "Materials and Techniques of the 20th century" is another one, but a bit more basic. Don't even think about reading that Schoenberg book if you don't understand everything that's already in the "Tonal Harmony" book I linked above. All of those books are for classical theory btw, not jazz. Musictheory.net is also a great resource, but it shouldn't be a substitute for countless of hours reading, analyzing, and listening to the best pieces by the best composers.
 
1. pick your KEY
2. TEMPO- + GROOVE (LOOSE OR TIGHT? )
3. MODE
4. MAIN BASE NOTES (NOTE WITH DURATION)
6. ADD IN DETAIL.

THIS CHART BELOW IS THE ENTIRE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN CONSONANCE AND DISSONANCE

We'll begin with the Cmaj Amin key as most come from this by shifting it to the appropriate location ie:g# min or f maj. THIS CHART SHOWS CONSONANCE TO DISSONANCE IN THAT ORDER WITH MODES AND TRIADS.It is a UNIVERSAL chart meaning all of music's complexity lies within.The first 2 rows takes INVERSIONS ,THENchanging 1 one of the notes resulting in the most consonant TRIADS. the last 2 rows shows changing 2 notes arriving at the next consonant TRIADS

C-Maj(1mode Ionian
1.CEG---CEA,Amin(6mode
2.EGC---EGB,Emin(3mode
3.GCE---GBD,Gmaj(5mode
4.CEG---CFA ,Fmaj(4mode

D-Min(2mode Dorian
1.DFA---DFB,Bdim(7mode
2.FAD---FAC,Fmaj(4mode
3.ADF---ACE,Amin(6mode
4.DFA---DGB ,Gmaj(5mode

E-Min(3mode Phrygian
1.EGB---EGC,Cmaj(1mode
2.GBE---GBD,Gmaj(5mode
3.BEG---BDF,Bdim(7mode
4.EGB---EAC ,Amin(6mode

F-Maj(4mode Lydian
1.FAC---FAD,Dmin(2mode
2.ACF---ACE,Amin(6mode
3.CFA---CEG,Cmaj(1mode
4.FAC---FBD ,Bdim(7mode

G-Maj(5mode Mixolydian
1.GBD---GBE,Emin(3mode
2.BDG---BDF,Bdim(7mode
3.DGB---DFA,Dmin(2mode
4.GBD---GCE ,Cmaj(1mode

A-Min(6mode Aeolian
1.ACE---ACF,Fmaj(4mode
2.CEA---CEG,Cmaj(1mode
3.EAC---EGB,Emin(3mode
4.ACE---ADF ,Dmin(2mode

B-Min(7mode Locrian
1.BDF---BFG,Gmaj(5mode
2.DFB---DFA,Dmin(2mode
3.FBD---FAC,Fmaj(4mode
4.BDF---BEG ,Emin(3mode

TO SHOW IN SUMMARY HOW TO USE IT. refer to below chart. start with C notes or triad or chord, the chords most consonant to c are E and A , after that the 3rd and fourth consonant to C are G and F triads or Chords. Once you arrive at the new notes or chord simply refer to it's appropriate chart. the very bottom shows the most consonant progressions.
all od this is what is naturally built into music on it's own giving you all the variety music contains.

-------- E
C-----I--A
------I
------I--G
------I--F

---------F
D-----I--B
-------I
-------I--A
-------I--G


--------G
E----I--C
------I
------I--B
------I--A

---------A
F-----I--D
-------I
-------I--C
-------I--B


--------B
G----I--E
------I
------I--D
------I--C


--------C
A----I--F
------I
------I--E
------I--D

--------D
B----I--G
------I
------I--F
------I--E


Following 2 most Consonant Chord Progressions you get Cmaj Amin Fmaj Dmin Bdim Gmaj Emin Cmaj or 16427531
Following 2 most Consonant Chord Progressions you get Cmaj Emin Gmaj Bdim Dmin Fmaj Amin Cmaj or 13572461:Shedevil:
 
IN REVIEW-------
Following 2 most Consonant Chord Progressions you get Cmaj Amin Fmaj Dmin Bdim Gmaj Emin Cmaj or 16427531
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Let's take the above progression and arpeggiate the individual notes to create a melodic pattern that can be played along with the above progression as a simple exercise. C A E G A F C E F C A E D A F C B C F D G E B D E C A B C A E G

NEXT when you feel comfortable with it try shifting the entire scale to say F MAJOR from where it was C MAJOR or D MINOR from where it was A MINOR and remember that the relationship stays the same to itself like a conveyer belt

here are all the notes in music C- C# -D- D#- E- F -F#- G- G-#- A- A#- B 12 NOTES
From one note to the next is called a semi-tone, 2 spaces is a tone
out of these 12 notes ,7 of them make the C Major scale C-D-E-F-G-A-B- in a pattern starting with C that is
tone, tone, semi-tone, tone, tone, tone, semi-tone or 2,2,1,2,2,2,1, now take the C major scale of 7 notes and only using them you have a KEY. next in the key each letter represents it's own "mode" so
1. C shape "ionian" which is the notes CDEFGABC
2. D shape "dorian" which is the notes DEFGABCD
3. E shape "phrygian" which is the notes EFGABCDE
4. F shape "lydian" which is the notes FGABCDEF
5. G shape "mixolydian"which is notes GABCDEFG
6. A shape "aeolian"IS also called MINOR ABCDEFGA
7. B shape "locrian "which is notes BCDEFGAB
OUT OF EACH MODE CHORDS CAN BE BUILT FROM THE NOTES IN IT BY SKIPPING EVERY OTHER NOTE IN THE MODE
1. C ionian is C major CEG ,C maj 7 chord is CEGB, C maj 9 chord is CEGBD ,C maj 11 chord is CEGBDF
C maj13 chord is CEGBDFA
2. D dorian is D minor DFA ,D minor 7 chord is DFAC, D minor 9 chord is DFACE ,C dominant 11 chord is CEGBDF
---------------------- THE LIST CONTINUES ON FOR THE REST-----------------------------
EACH MODE( just like C MAJOR IS tone, tone, semi-tone, tone, tone, tone, semi-tone or 2,2,1,2,2,2,1,) has it's own Unique pattern. that pattern depending on the Intervals Creates certain chords out of it. in music you have consonance and dissonance, which is a order of notes that fit well and as you start to get dissonant gradually creates tension by not fitting as well the above information at the very top of the page explains from this point onward.


C Ionian C D E F G A B C (associated with C Major 7 chord)
D Dorian D E F G A B C D (associated with D-6 or D-7 13 chord)
E Phrygian E F G A B C D E (associated with Esus4 ♭9 chord)
F Lydian F G A B C D E F (associated with F Maj7 ♯11 chord)
G Mixolydian G A B C D E F G (associated with G7 chord)
A Aeolian A B C D E F G A (associated with A-7 ♭13 chord)
B Locrian B C D E F G A B (associated with B-7♭5 chord