I consider this a very fucking thin line, throw your thoughts up, and while your there, shoot me a band I should know but probably don't
yes I am bored, but discuss anywho
yes I am bored, but discuss anywho
Hard Rock/Heavy Metal....
- Thread starter Southy
- Start date
Shadow298
UNLEASH THE GUAN
that Leed Zepplin and are heavy metal, they say that they are not.
Early AC/DC and Black Sabbath are hard rock bands, not metal.
For the simple fact that the term heavy metal wasn't really applied to bands at such time and they saw themselves as part of the rock tradition.
too tired to bother writing more or more thoughtfully.
Early AC/DC and Black Sabbath are hard rock bands, not metal.
For the simple fact that the term heavy metal wasn't really applied to bands at such time and they saw themselves as part of the rock tradition.
too tired to bother writing more or more thoughtfully.
Lord Tim
That guy from LORD
It depends on who you ask, though. You'll find most people would call early Sabbath metal, but if you listen to the actual "heaviness" of it all, it could easily be a hard rock band too. What's the difference between "commercial metal" and "hard rock" anyway? Nothing. We all called Dokken a metal band back in the day. Priest is a metal band but listen to Turbo, is that metal or hard rock?
You could ask 10 different people their opinions on any band and you'll likely get 10 different answers. It gets even more clouded by how sub genres are divided up now. Does anyone remember when Helloween was speed metal? Now they're power metal. Dio... what's that? Hard rock? Doom? Classic/Trad metal? Heavy metal? Power metal, even? (Hey, they had galloped drums, some fast double kick stuff, songs about dragons, high vocals... that's power metal, yeah?). I remember when people called Metallica power metal, because it was a more powerful form of heavy metal. Kind of inappropriate now, hey?
I reckon there's 2 good ways of describing a band now: Good and Shit. All you need to know.
Oh, and check out Avalanche for a band you probably don't know: www.myspace.com/avalanchemetal - a mix of Kamelot, Within Temptation, Soilwork and maybe even a bit of Evergrey. Awesome stuff!
You could ask 10 different people their opinions on any band and you'll likely get 10 different answers. It gets even more clouded by how sub genres are divided up now. Does anyone remember when Helloween was speed metal? Now they're power metal. Dio... what's that? Hard rock? Doom? Classic/Trad metal? Heavy metal? Power metal, even? (Hey, they had galloped drums, some fast double kick stuff, songs about dragons, high vocals... that's power metal, yeah?). I remember when people called Metallica power metal, because it was a more powerful form of heavy metal. Kind of inappropriate now, hey?
I reckon there's 2 good ways of describing a band now: Good and Shit. All you need to know.
Oh, and check out Avalanche for a band you probably don't know: www.myspace.com/avalanchemetal - a mix of Kamelot, Within Temptation, Soilwork and maybe even a bit of Evergrey. Awesome stuff!
Goreripper
Metal as fuck
Actually, Metallica called themselves power metal, Tim. Hetfield used to do it all the time. I've got a fanzine from 86 that refers to all thrash bands as "power metal" because that's what Hetfield called it.
But back to Southy's original point: Blue Öyster Cult were always referred to as "heavy metal", and yet even by 70s standards they were never metal and often not even that heavy. Nowadays there's Nickelback (for example) that get called "metal" by idiots when even their heaviest songs are no more metal than AC/DC. Even Bon Jovi got called "metal" during the late 80s. I don't know who Leed Zepplin are, but Led Zeppelin was a progressive blues band that had some songs that could be called heavy metal.
But back to Southy's original point: Blue Öyster Cult were always referred to as "heavy metal", and yet even by 70s standards they were never metal and often not even that heavy. Nowadays there's Nickelback (for example) that get called "metal" by idiots when even their heaviest songs are no more metal than AC/DC. Even Bon Jovi got called "metal" during the late 80s. I don't know who Leed Zepplin are, but Led Zeppelin was a progressive blues band that had some songs that could be called heavy metal.
Shadow298
UNLEASH THE GUAN
that just shows how the descriptions of sub-genres have changed over the years.
same with arguing over what is the true definition of NWOBHM (since a few of those bands could be considered more hard rock style too) and the the differences between mid 80's thrash and speed metal.
or what a thrash band was in the early 80's -which actually is a bit different to today's definition.
Listen to bands such as Grim Reaper or Cloven Hoof, who were called thrash back in their day, and compare to modern thrash bands.
Goreripper
Metal as fuck
Well, the New Wave of British Heavy Metal wasn't actually a genre description. It was originally the title of an article Geoff Barton wrote for Sounds magazine in 1979 about the British metal scene at the time, so it was basically a catch-all for any band from Britain (and also some like the EF Band and Picture who were Dutch but popular in the UK) that was playing metal at the time. Most of the bands were pretty underground and stayed that way, but because a few of them like Iron Maiden, Saxon and Def Leppard came to worldwide attention with a sound that was more or less the same (the first Leppard album sounds a lot like Saxon), people who came along later and didn't understand what NWOBHM meant and figured it must have been a genre, not simply an era. NWOBHM encompassed everyone from Maiden to Motorhead to Praying Mantis to Venom, so it clearly isn't a very good description of a particular sound to the extent that ,oooh I don't know, say deathcore is.
Shit yeah, I couldn't believe how that description could work, but it does. Thanks for that.
Blitzkrieg
Master Exploder
I agree with LT, it is all in the eye of the beholder really. Sub-genres are a fucking annoying thing, but in a broader sense they do at least help you communicate what a band is like, it is just when people get too specific about it that shits me.
And although early Sabbath could at times sound much more blues rock than metal, just listen to Into The Void and you will understand why they are considered Heavy Metal. That song still rattles my balls after all these years. Heavy.
Motorhead are an interesting one. While they are often considered a pioneering metal band and are often cited as an influence of heavy bands, Lemmy hates being refered to as metal and prefers to call his music 'rock and roll'. I kinda like that.
While we are blurring the lines of hard rock and heavy metal, I will recommend a band that you may have heard, but kick all kinds of arse so are worth mentioning anyway. Dreadnaught! http://www.myspace.com/dreadnaughtmusic
And although early Sabbath could at times sound much more blues rock than metal, just listen to Into The Void and you will understand why they are considered Heavy Metal. That song still rattles my balls after all these years. Heavy.
Motorhead are an interesting one. While they are often considered a pioneering metal band and are often cited as an influence of heavy bands, Lemmy hates being refered to as metal and prefers to call his music 'rock and roll'. I kinda like that.
While we are blurring the lines of hard rock and heavy metal, I will recommend a band that you may have heard, but kick all kinds of arse so are worth mentioning anyway. Dreadnaught! http://www.myspace.com/dreadnaughtmusic
Goreripper
Metal as fuck
My vote goes for "Children of the Grave". That album (Master of Reality) is the first real heavy metal album. Everything before that is just rock.
Amen to that.
Blitzkrieg
Master Exploder
That was certainly the album that cemented them as a metal band, with the introduction of the galloping riff of Children of the Grave, and the damn heavyness of Into The Void. I still think the doom as fuck title track of the debut, the dark blues of tracks like Hand Of Doom and Behind The Wall Of Sleep, and the big riffs of Electric Funeral and Iron Man earn them the title of being a metal band before that though, especially when compared with their contemporaries.
Goreripper
Metal as fuck
I love that this drunken thread created discussion, I still relate most shit as just metal, sub genre's confuse me too much
dreamwatch
Syntax error
I remember at school my buds and I used to use three genres - Thrash, Metal and Glam. Everything we listened to could be posted into one of those three boxes. When I met Mark and we had all these bands bombarding our house with press packs and CDs I just about lost the plot with the stupid sub-genres. But then Metal has gotten so much heavier that I suppose there is more room for definition. I'm with Tim though, it's either good or it's shit.
phlogiston
Bejabbers!
I agree with the whole "it's either good or not good" thing, but:
While there's a whole lot of fuzzy grey areas, for me it comes down to song complexity and attitude.
Metal songs are generally more complex in regards to tempo changes and key changes and the whole "twiddly-diddly" stuff, while rock songs are a whole lot simpler in structure. So a rock song can be "heavier" than a metal song. (I remember this discussion way back between Spawny and Trent when they were trying to figure out who was more metal, Skid Row or Vinnie Vincent.)
Also the rock attitude is more of a group "togetherness" thing, while metal is more individualistic. It's part of the reason why Poison get to be metal, and AC\DC get to be rock.
While there's a whole lot of fuzzy grey areas, for me it comes down to song complexity and attitude.
Metal songs are generally more complex in regards to tempo changes and key changes and the whole "twiddly-diddly" stuff, while rock songs are a whole lot simpler in structure. So a rock song can be "heavier" than a metal song. (I remember this discussion way back between Spawny and Trent when they were trying to figure out who was more metal, Skid Row or Vinnie Vincent.)
Also the rock attitude is more of a group "togetherness" thing, while metal is more individualistic. It's part of the reason why Poison get to be metal, and AC\DC get to be rock.
Bucko
Member
Makes me think about a lot of the NWOBHM bands that did'nt really make it... a few come to mind... RAVEN, TANK, SAMPSON (after Bruce), Tigers of Pang Tan, Diamond Head, Praying Mantis, Vardis just to name a few....gore can you think of any more...
Spiff
I have the power
Goreripper
Metal as fuck
Geez mate, why don't you ask an easy one? There were tons of NWOBHM that *almost* made it, but you've pretty much listed the one most people would have heard of. I'd add Girlschool, Rock Goddess and White Spirit to the list too, along with Holocaust, Satan, Cloven Hoof and More.
Goreripper
Metal as fuck
When you think about it, you can kind of understand why bands called Holocaust, Satan and Cloven Hoof didn't make it.
There's one other I forgot: Angelwitch!
There's one other I forgot: Angelwitch!
Bucko
Member
Goreripper:
When you think about it, you can kind of understand why bands called Holocaust, Satan and Cloven Hoof didn't make it.
There's one other I forgot: Angelwitch!
Ahh Anglewitch yes thats a biggie I really only know 1 song " Anglewitch" .
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