Hardcore - Metal song... song/sound feedback please !

Djabthrash

Djabthrash

Member
Aug 26, 2007
4,138
3
38
Paris / Montpellier, FRANCE
Hi guys.

I've been checking this forum for almost a year now.

Here is a song i wrote a long time ago (late 2006) for my previous band :

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=789228&content=songinfo&songID=6657866

Don't mind the sloppy guitar playing (this was recorded for a guitar tone test mainly, and i wasn't ready to track when i did, so you'll hear a lot of fuck-ups :) ).

Guitars are recorded direct with Schecter Hellraiser C1-FR loaded w. EMG 81 > Korg AX1500G (Marshall head sim + Marshall cab sim) > M Audio Fast track pro > computer DAW.
I recorded one track on each side. the only difference in the signal chain between those 2 takes is the eq on the preamp (i mean the KORG AX1500G "amp modeling" eq section), since one setting is more mid-rangey, and the other one is more scooped (not "noob scooped" though :) ).

Drums and bass are programmed. Drums is Fruity loops using some samples from here and there, don't mind the programming, i didn't finish it, need to work on velocities and make it sound more realistic. Bass is an export from Guitar Pro, then eq-ed.

No vocals yet sorry.

Gimme your feedback on :

-the song... catchy ? not catchy ?

-the production, especially:

-the guitar sound on its own : too gainy? not enough gain ? too much mids ? not enough mids ? Do you feel that different guitar amp eq on each side is a bad choice ?

-the mix in general (didn't spend too much time mixing at now).


Keep in mind my goal is to have something that sounds decent for demo-ing, not something pro a la Sneap (i learn step by step... now i'm focussing on writing songs, recording them, and improving my guitar sound (i have an ENGL SE at my Mom's place but for now i'm stuck with my AX1500G and try to get the best out of it) ).

Thanks in advance for your feedback.


EDIT : new version following JoeJackson's suggestions : trying to get more bite on the guitars with +2dB around 3k and +2dB around 5K on the guitars EQ :

http://soundclick.com/share?songid=6665252

You can download a 224Kb mp3 version here : http://gabriel.nodet.free.fr/enemy down - song 1 (korg grs Marshall)vNewMixTest_20080625.mp3

(Former version : http://gabriel.nodet.free.fr/enemy down - song 1 (korg grs Marshall).mp3 )

EDIT 2 : Here are the guitar tracks (without EQ): (!!! WAV files !!!)

http://gabriel.nodet.free.fr/korg gr left Marshall.wav

http://gabriel.nodet.free.fr/korg gr right Marshall.wav

Tell me if they sound decent already...

Considering the EQ changes i had to make in Cubase afterwise to give them more bite (see previous posts), i'm tempted to do the following in the KORG settings: a tad less gain, a tad more presence, a tad more air. What would you guys do ?

EDIT 3 : I did the forementioned tweaking changes on the Korg AX1500G (a tad less gain, a tad less bass, a tad more air, a tad more presence) and recorded another old song of mine with those settings, check "enemy down - song 4 (korg grs Marshall)_20080630.mp3" here:

http://www.esnips.com/webfolder/7e208f8c-0af2-4657-8b17-a933f3f27975

I didn't record the guitar tracks at the same volume than last time (and settings were a bit different by the way) so it seems guitars are not loud enough compared to last time, so i guess i'm gonna fix that tonight. Bass seems too loud in the mix, what do you think ?

I'm also gonna try a C4 to tame the low-mids on the guitars later.

Apart from this, tell me how it sounds (song, production, guitar tone...).

EDIT 4 : Posted a new version of song 4 with less bass : "enemy down - song 4 (korg grs Marshall)_20080701.mp3"

http://www.esnips.com/webfolder/7e208f8c-0af2-4657-8b17-a933f3f27975

EDIT 5 : Didn't realize my esnips folder was set private... :(

Just made it public.

Give it a listen.

http://www.esnips.com/web/DjabthrashStuff
 
I had the Korg myself and the "Marshall" was the only tone that convinced me :)

The guitars sound a bit dull, though. MOOORE BITE :D

The song itself is pretty cool. I would love to hear vocals on that track.
 
JoeJackson said:
I had the Korg myself and the "Marshall" was the only tone that convinced me :)

The guitars sound a bit dull, though. MOOORE BITE :D

The song itself is pretty cool. I would love to hear vocals on that track.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the feedback dude !

I totally agree on the Korg... I don't love the Marshall sim (not a huge fan of the Marshall sound in general), but IMO it's the only usable one for metal on this pedal, and it can sound quite decent.

Then, what should i do to make the guitars sound less dull and have more bite ?

Last but not least... yeah i'd love to have killer vocals on that song too I have good ideas (and recorded some) but i'm not a good singer (i mean i think i have good ideas but my performance sucks at now ) so it will take time before i record vocals (except if i find someone who's up to do some vocals on it). The kind of vocals i want for this song sound a bit like : Merauder, Madball, Hoods, Eyeless, Terror, Barcode, 100 Demons, E Town Concrete, Down my throat/St.Hood. (some Sneap forumite is playing in those last two bands, can't remember is name though... i only remember he works in a studio in Finland) ...

Right now i'm focussing on recording better guitar tones (from both AX1500G direct and my ENGL SE miked), but the next step is improving my singing (i just need to work and check out both Melissa Cross DVDs ).
 
Melissa's DVDs are awesome. She teaches in a very comfortable way (neither boring nor absurd). And the scenes with all the singers are hilarious. I loughed my ass off when Randy from LoG had to do some of the exercises.

You've only got the Korg-Sounds, right? I'm far from beeing an expert, but I would sweep the EQ for the bite - I always apply nearly the same EQ on my guitar-tracks/busses. Depending on the track itself I boost a db or two at around 3k and some at around 5k. A tiny notch at around 800hz can take out some of that "wobbly" sound. Maybe some of the more experienced guys can help you with other techniques. Maybe it would help to duplicate the tracks, take everything below around 2k out, eq it again and slightly mix it in?
 
JoeJackson said:
Melissa's DVDs are awesome. She teaches in a very comfortable way (neither boring nor absurd). And the scenes with all the singers are hilarious. I loughed my ass off when Randy from LoG had to do some of the exercises.

You've only got the Korg-Sounds, right? I'm far from beeing an expert, but I would sweep the EQ for the bite - I always apply nearly the same EQ on my guitar-tracks/busses. Depending on the track itself I boost a db or two at around 3k and some at around 5k. A tiny notch at around 800hz can take out some of that "wobbly" sound. Maybe some of the more experienced guys can help you with other techniques. Maybe it would help to duplicate the tracks, take everything below around 2k out, eq it again and slightly mix it in?
Click to expand...

Totally agree on the Melissa DVDs. I own Volume 1 and i'm gonna order Volume 2 pretty soon.

About the guitar sound, i forgot to mention i applied a LP-HP on the guitars in my DAW. Can't remember which frequently exactly (maybe around 70-90 hz in the low end, can't remember the frequency in the high-end though). Sorry i forgot to mention this.

So according to you, i should not try to change my settings on the AX1500G (amp head settings (gain + EQ), cab sim settings (air, presence) ), and i should rather EQ a bit in the DAW ?

I'll try to post the raw guitar takes here when i come home tonight (don't remember if there is a noticeable difference between the raw files and the EQ-ed (LP-HP) files ), so that you guys can tell me if the guitar takes have a good sound already (which means i have to mess up with the DAW EQ as you suggested) or if i need to tweak the AX1500G a bit.

I'll also try your EQ suggestions as soon as i can.

Thanks again for the advice.
 
Dude, I missed something. I thought, you've only got the Korg-Tracks and you want to make them sound as good as possible.

If you've raw tracks of your guitar to re-amp, try a good amp-sim instead!!!
Download the Revalver MKIII demo, apply Sneaps Settings to the 6505, turn up the input-signal in Rev and you're going to throw away your Korg.
There are also a few free amp-sims in Win-VST-format ... Wagner Sharp is one of them. Check it out, a few people up here get really good results out of it.

Of course you could set up a reamp-chain through your Engl (Cab connected!!!). You can take the pre-amp-signal of the FX-send and again pass it through impulses. Instant "real-tube-amp"-sound without having trouble mic'ing.

If you really want to stick with your Korg, bypass the Cab-sim and use impulses in your DAW.

The LP-HP-thing is good. The lowpass keeps you out of trouble with the low-end of your mix. I would apply it at 60-70Hz (so does Andy). You definitly need to check your HP-filter. Maybe you're cutting too much (Andy cuts at 12kHz). Anyway, I would boost a bit in the area around 3-5kHz.
 
JoeJackson said:
Dude, I missed something. I thought, you've only got the Korg-Tracks and you want to make them sound as good as possible.

If you've raw tracks of your guitar to re-amp, try a good amp-sim instead!!!
Download the Revalver MKIII demo, apply Sneaps Settings to the 6505, turn up the input-signal in Rev and you're going to throw away your Korg.
There are also a few free amp-sims in Win-VST-format ... Wagner Sharp is one of them. Check it out, a few people up here get really good results out of it.

Of course you could set up a reamp-chain through your Engl (Cab connected!!!). You can take the pre-amp-signal of the FX-send and again pass it through impulses. Instant "real-tube-amp"-sound without having trouble mic'ing.

If you really want to stick with your Korg, bypass the Cab-sim and use impulses in your DAW.

The LP-HP-thing is good. The lowpass keeps you out of trouble with the low-end of your mix. I would apply it at 60-70Hz (so does Andy). You definitly need to check your HP-filter. Maybe you're cutting too much (Andy cuts at 12kHz). Anyway, I would boost a bit in the area around 3-5kHz.
Click to expand...

Sorry guy i didn't explain well. I don't have the RAW guitar takes. I used the word "raw" to make a difference between the guitar tracks (out of the Korg) vs guitar tracks (out of the Korg) eq-ed in the DAW. So basically i only have Korg guitar tracks at now.

Maybe i'll try to buy some reamping gear and do some tests someday, but at now i'll try to get the best sound out of the Korg + tweak my DAW eq a little bit according to your suggestions, and maybe A/B the result with the same shit with the cab sim off and impulses instead.

About the High-pass you may be right, maybe i've cut too much, need to check that when i come home.

As i mentioned before, i'll try to post the Korg guitar tracks here so that you can tell me if it's good already (and maybe need some EQ-ing in my DAW) or if i should tweak the Korg a bit more (maybe add some more air and/or presence in the cab sim settings) before messing up with the DAW eq.
 
So i checked out my DAW session. I nOObie-ishly had some weird EQ on the Master... (which was : http://gabriel.nodet.free.fr/GabmasterEqCUT.jpg ). It does not make much sense and explains some crap with the guitar tone :) So basically i just removed the 350 Hz + 2k + 12k boosts/cuts from this Master EQ, and left it only with the +1,7 dB boost around 80 hz (Q : 7 ), which is still a bit nOObish i know :). So now i have this : http://gabriel.nodet.free.fr/MasterEQ_20080625.jpg

Then, i had only a HP-LP at 80 hz / 12 Khz on the guitars. I tried your suggestions: +2dB around 3k and +2dB around 5K. Also tried a slight notch around 800hz but i didn't like it so didn't keep it. So basically now i have this : http://gabriel.nodet.free.fr/KorgGrsMarshallEQ_20080625.jpg
It improved the guitar sound a bit, added some britghtness and bite. I like it. Not a HUGE change but an improvement for the mix.

So here is the new version : http://soundclick.com/share?songid=6665252

You can download a 224Kb mp3 version here : http://gabriel.nodet.free.fr/enemy down - song 1 (korg grs Marshall)vNewMixTest_20080625.mp3

(Former version : http://gabriel.nodet.free.fr/enemy down - song 1 (korg grs Marshall).mp3 )

What do you guys think of the new version ?

Tomorrow i'll try to post the Korg guitar tracks so that you guys can tell me if they sounded good already or not.
 
Well I think the "raw" tone is too far away from a suitable tone. Sure you can tweak it to make it acceptable but you'd better off redoing it imo. Plus I hear clipping and there's probably too much gain.
Maybe you should disable the speaker sim of the Korg if applicable and use an impulse instead.
Pretty cool riffs btw.
 
I couldn't get something good out of that tones, sorry man.

You should lay the Korg aside and work with decent amp-sims + impulses. Really! ;)
 
JoeJackson said:
I couldn't get something good out of that tones, sorry man.

You should lay the Korg aside and work with decent amp-sims + impulses. Really! ;)
Click to expand...

Thanks for being honest :)

As i'm stubborn i'll try to improve the korg tone a bit and use it for demo-ing for a few months, after that i'll be back home with my dear ENGL rig and might check impulses (and maybe software sims when i don't have the ENGL rig at hand).

So Joe... What would you do to make this crappy Korg tone less crappy ? :)
 
Like I said before, I'm a noob myself. And I always tried to get the best possible guitarsound before mixing it. So I've never really been in the position to enhance tracks, y'know. Maybe you could try to "cut" the tracks into a few frequency-ranges and work on them seperately. Then you could mix that tracks to your actual track.

It's just an idea and I have no idea if it's the most dumb idea anyone ever thought of :D
I would try to duplicate each track 3 times. Now you've got 4 tracks - one I would only apply HP/LP. The next one I would LP to let only the low frequencies in. Do the same for the mids and the highs. Now you've split the frequencies. Now I would apply some compression on the "low" track to tame it (maybe Andy-style'd multiband). EQ-sweep the "mid"-track and cut whatever sounds muddy and undefined. I would try to add a bit of Vintage Warmer to the "high" track as well as some EQ to give it more air (maybe boost some 8-10k).

Now mix those three tracks to the original track, repeat for the other side and check, if that helps.

Throw stones, if that was total bullshit ... thank you ;)
 
JoeJackson said:
Like I said before, I'm a noob myself. And I always tried to get the best possible guitarsound before mixing it. So I've never really been in the position to enhance tracks, y'know. Maybe you could try to "cut" the tracks into a few frequency-ranges and work on them seperately. Then you could mix that tracks to your actual track.

It's just an idea and I have no idea if it's the most dumb idea anyone ever thought of :D
I would try to duplicate each track 3 times. Now you've got 4 tracks - one I would only apply HP/LP. The next one I would LP to let only the low frequencies in. Do the same for the mids and the highs. Now you've split the frequencies. Now I would apply some compression on the "low" track to tame it (maybe Andy-style'd multiband). EQ-sweep the "mid"-track and cut whatever sounds muddy and undefined. I would try to add a bit of Vintage Warmer to the "high" track as well as some EQ to give it more air (maybe boost some 8-10k).

Now mix those three tracks to the original track, repeat for the other side and check, if that helps.

Throw stones, if that was total bullshit ... thank you ;)
Click to expand...

I'm not gonna throw stones... but ROCKS at you !!!

...

Just kidding :)

I'll try to improve the korg tone by itself (a tad less gain, a tad less bass, a tad more presence, a tad more air); keep the "more bite" eq boosts, + do this but on one track (i like simple things :) ) "Now I would apply some compression on the "low" track to tame it (maybe Andy-style'd multiband). EQ-sweep the "mid"-track and cut whatever sounds muddy and undefined".

I'll post results when i record new stuff (which can be tomorrow... or in 1 month :) ).

Thanks again for your advice and your time dude.

Too bad nobody else gave it a try.
 
Actually I thought about my strange idea ... and kinda liked it ... I wonder if someone did that already.
Maybe I'll give it a try one day ...
 
I did the forementioned tweaking changes on the Korg AX1500G (a tad less gain, a tad less bass, a tad more air, a tad more presence) and recorded another old song of mine with those settings, check "enemy down - song 4 (korg grs Marshall)_20080630.mp3" here:

http://www.esnips.com/webfolder/7e208f8c-0af2-4657-8b17-a933f3f27975

I didn't record the guitar tracks at the same volume than last time (and settings were a bit different by the way) so it seems guitars are not loud enough compared to last time, so i guess i'm gonna fix that tonight. Bass seems too loud in the mix, what do you think ?

I'm also gonna try a C4 to tame the low-mids on the guitars later.

Apart from this, tell me how it sounds (song, production, guitar tone...).
 
Hi there Djabthrash, I think the boosts you made at 3k and 5k made a huge difference
in the guitar tone, much better. I wouldnt bother with compression on the low-mids
because you dont have a problem in that area, you only have to do this if you get
a "booming" sound during palm muting which you haven't got.
I wanted to mention your song writing though, I love it, the drums perfectly complement
the guitar parts and the song as a whole has good progression between the sections.
 
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