Help with Guitar Tone, Clips

[Melodeath]

So after seeing how successful Ryan's thread for his snare was, I figured I'd make one for my guitar tone.

I have:

-5150
-Splawn 4X12 Cab with Eminence speakers. Basically the Eminence "clones" of a V30 and GT-75 X-Pattern
-SM57

I've improved my tone a bit by experiementing with the different speakers in the cab, and mic position. So, the tone I'm posting is basically the best I've gotten out of my 5150 recorded so far. However, my perception might be a bit jaded at this point, so I need some help. It sounds pretty good to me, but I feel there is always room for improvement.

So what you're hearing DI reamped through Redeye into 5150. SM57 on an Eminence Governor in my Splawn cab. Going through the API emulation pre on my Liquid Saffire 56. No post processing. Just dither down to 16 bit and convert to mp3

Clip: http://www.lightningmp3.com/live/file.php?id=19585


Do you think this tone sounds decent? How would you go about improving it? My 5150 is stock bias, and the tubes have never been replaced (other than 2 preamp tubes that went bad) during my ownership (6 years about, and I bought it used). My "live room" is also my control room, so I can't really tweak the amp while listening to the tone through my monitors.

I will post some pics of the amp settings and cab/mic soon

Thanks guys.
P.S. I felt this forum was more appropriate in this case than the "rate my tone" forum

UPDATED CLIP: http://files.getdropbox.com/u/1579861/Best Guitar Tone Reamp.wav

 

[Melodeath]

No one?

Further info: Pickup used was a Duncan JB. DI recorded with Redeye

 

[madmuso]

im keen to hear it with some drums and bass just to hear it in context, sounds alright to me, again, would be good to hear it against other instruments.

 

[slayercannibalsuffohead]

The tone by itself sounds dull flat and fizzy to me. Maybe to much gain? Sounds as though the mic is further away from the grille than standard (1 inch). Even in a mix I think it would struggle. Could be a tube issue, cant hear much tubiness in it, more pedal into solid state type sound.

Were the strings new? What guitar and pickups were used? Good leads?

I know its a lot of questions, but start with guitar (strings pups) > leads > amp > tubes. You have good ingredients, maybe a bad link somewhere in the chain.



Oooopppss! Just saw what the pups were, please disregard that question.

 

[Melodeath]

Interesting. Someone else mentioned to me it sounded "distant." I haven't posted the pic yet obviously, but the mic is actually even closer than 1 inch. It was basically 1 mm from the grille cloth, around the area where the dust cap and cone meet. In fact, after I made the clip, I worried that the mic might have accidentally been touching the grille cloth haha

Strings were not new, but not especially old. Cable was just a standard cable you used to find at guitar center. Nothing special or particularly poor (I hope).

I'm not used to using the High Input on my 5150, so I may have had the gain too high. Gain was on 7 or slightly lower iirc. I usually use that gain setting using the Low Input, but I thought maybe my tone was suffering due to the lower input impedance of the Low Input, so I tried High without really changing amp settings.

Thanks for the reply

 

[tr3nt]

Hey dude, I'm sorta having the same problem.

Do you have msn messenger we could share clips fast and help out?

 

[Melodeath]

Yeah, my MSN is under my username.

Anyone have any ideas why a really close mic sounds sort of distant?

 

[TheWinterSnow]

The underbiased tubes are a huge sign in this clip, the fizzyness and lack of dynamic. The fizz can be removed by adding a low pass at 12k and you can add some presence at the 6-10k area to get some more in your face sound. But honestly the distant tone is a result of some bad tone dialing. Try bringing downt he res knob down, i never record with it beyond 5, usually off. The mic should be right on between the cone and the dustcap, on the edge where they meet and you should have the mic about half an inch away if not closer (up to .5cm) but don't get too close of you have a grille cloth becuase it will move in the wind and thats the last thing you need to hit your mic.

mic only the top speakers on your cab and keep the cab away from walls and don't record in a room that has a resonant floor if your not on a first floor or basement, elevated floors have bad news in the bass region and as a result give some nasty clarity clouding properties. I would recommend micing the 75 over the 30 since they are brighter. And definately turn down the gain. On my 5150 i have an SD-1 before the amp and when i record I usually have the gain at about 3 using the high gain. I like overly satyrated music as well so I am not playing shit with the sound of the gain being turned down, so that is just saying how much gain the 5150 has on tap.

your tubes might also be bad as fuck and need to be chucked, huge sign of aging tubes is clarity loss.

 

[Melodeath]

Thanks TheWinterSnow

I didn't do any EQing because I wanted to see how I can improve the source itself. I want to get the best source possible.

Here were my settings:

High Input
Pre Gain 7
Low 7
Mid 2
High 6.5
Post Gain Almost 3
Res 7
Pres 7

I imagine lowering the gain will help the dynamics a lot.

The cab is not near any walls. It's basically in the center of a big room. I miked the bottom V30-clone because it sounds better than the top one to me. The cab is on a carpeted basement floor.

I assume a tube change can only help, considering how old these are.

 

[TheWinterSnow]

Thanks TheWinterSnow

I didn't do any EQing because I wanted to see how I can improve the source itself. I want to get the best source possible.

Here were my settings:

High Input
Pre Gain 7
Low 7
Mid 2
High 6.5
Post Gain Almost 3
Res 7
Pres 7

I imagine lowering the gain will help the dynamics a lot.

The cab is not near any walls. It's basically in the center of a big room. I miked the bottom V30-clone because it sounds better than the top one to me. The cab is on a carpeted basement floor.

I assume a tube change can only help, considering how old these are.

your pre gain is too high, , your ushing it witht he bass, especially considering where the res is, with both at 7 is asking to loose clarity, I never have more than bass on 6 and res on 5 and I end up haveing to high pass and low shelf that as it is till to much in a mix.

Bottom speakers can get cloudy due to the fact all the bass likes to go to the ground. The ground also acts like another wall, it would be stupid to put the cab in the middle of the room to get away from the wall and turn around and have the mic maybe 6 inches from the floor.

My recomendation is to use the top 75 speaker with the bass, res and gain knopbs turned down and throw some tape saturation in your DAW to warm up the sound if your tone doesn't have enough balls, be sure to add a low pass filter at 12k to get rid of the underbiased fizz (and just as a general rule for all amps)

get that in a mix and tell us how that works out for you.

For your reference

My current settings:

Pre: 3.5
Bass: 6
Mid: 2
High 3.5
Post: >2
Res: <5
Pres: 7

GT-75 Speakers

 

[Metaltastic]

Hey Damian, listening to the clip in the OP, I wouldn't say it sounds particularly distant; in fact, I'd say it's pretty farkin' chunky and has a good bite (though could use a bit more presence IMO; the fizz is there at around 5k-6k, but it needs a little more 4k IMO to "cut" more) But it has a cool character that I dig, and actually, listening again, I think a better solution would perhaps be lowering the lows and/or resonance (pretty rusty on the specific effect of each, it's been awhile), cuz it feels a bit muddy. But tons of great tones have been recorded with stock 5150's, so while upping the bias will help, it will not solve your problem IMO; what I hear sounds like an issue with amp settings! (which IMO are even more important than hyper-specific mic positioning, as I've learned through endless tweaking, clips, and excellent feedback on here)

Of course, double-tracking it (and maybe even putting some drums under it, if the spirit moves you ) would make it much easier to determine!

 

[Metaltastic]

Bottom speakers can get cloudy due to the fact all the bass likes to go to the ground. The ground also acts like another wall, it would be stupid to put the cab in the middle of the room to get away from the wall and turn around and have the mic maybe 6 inches from the floor.

Ever think of elevating the cab and having it right on the edge of a surface? Like...this? And as for mic'ing the T75 vs. V30, well, needless to say my preference is V30, but Damian, definitely try both! And since you have a straight cab, the top or bottom position really doesn't matter, though since every speaker sounds a little different, it's still a good idea to try them all! (but at least you don't have to worry about the differences just in whether they're mounted in the top or bottom row, as you do with a slant) Big +1 for HP/LP (I set it at 80 Hz/10.5k though personally), but the fizz I hear in this clip is much lower, though I wouldn't necessarily go wild with cutting it until you hear it in a mix!

 

[Metaltastic]

AND FINALLY, as for setting gain, the way I do it that works really well for me is to palm mute an open A (that is to say, the second string from the bottom, not necessarily an A if you're tuned down, but I'm too lazy to call it anything else ) and then turn up the gain on the amp just until you start to get that wonderful saturated fizz that makes it sustain longer than the initial attack (which is what I HAET about undergained tones). And ever consider trying a Tube Screamer? Also, I wouldn't recommend using the Redeye as a DI with passive pickups, since it doesn't have a very high input impedance (by virtue of being passive) - try out the DI input on your Liquid Saffire, and go with whichever sounds best!

 

[Melodeath]

Thanks for the tips guys. I appreciate the time you took with them.

I will try to post a new clip soon with some of these things in mind.

 

[XnaySaturo]

A bit unrelated, but I don't know if this deserves a thread of it's own. It's something regarding the "distance" issue.
I've been struggling to get a good tone, and I was wondering how far back into the cab is the speaker in relation to the grille cloth. The ones on my 3/4 back Mesa 2x12 seem really far and I've been thinking that might be why I'm not getting a good tone with a 57.

 

[TheWinterSnow]

A bit unrelated, but I don't know if this deserves a thread of it's own. It's something regarding the "distance" issue.
I've been struggling to get a good tone, and I was wondering how far back into the cab is the speaker in relation to the grille cloth. The ones on my 3/4 back Mesa 2x12 seem really far and I've been thinking that might be why I'm not getting a good tone with a 57.

it takes at least 6 incehs before that happens, and usually if you use a condenser mic 6 inches away from the grille if you play at a really high volume its still really in your face. IME the lack of in your face or the "distant" sound is the result of back micing. I used to think that I had good micing, and had the mic right on the edge of the dustcap buut through further and scrutinizing examinations, I found that it was off. Once you get the heart of the voice coil from the speaker going right through (perpendicular) the center of the voice coil inside the mic, you get realistic results

 

[Melodeath]

Part of the issue is the Splawn cab grill is so thick you can't see the speakers at all. Even in a picture they are tough to see. I had to take measurements and put tape on the cab, but I suspect it's still off by a centimeter or more in certain places.

 

[Metaltastic]

Even shining a flashlight through doesn't help?

 

[Melodeath]

Nope. Just looks like a flashlight pointed onto a thick grill cloth

Even with a really bright light, the most you can see if some vague sparkling reflections on the inside...but not nearly distinguishable enough to even drawn an outline.

I opened my cab and took measurements and tried to put tape on the grill cloth where the center of each speaker should be. It's definitely not perfect. Then on top of that I have to guestimate mic position since there's no chance in hell I can see the dustcap.

 

[Metaltastic]

Wow, that sounds fucking maddening dude Good for durability on long tours though at least!