How common are "producers" in metal

[nialldoran]

Hey a thought has been floating around in my head the last few days and i was just wondering, how many guys on this forum are producers in the sense that they have creative input in the bands they are tracking, (i know this isnt the only role of a producer)

i know in metal alot of bands write their own material, but in other genres this isnt as true, alot of pop right back to old motown music producers have had a very creative input to the songs being tracked,

have you ever jumped in and suggested something to a band about the actual musical material? have they ever asked your advice? or have you ever worked with a band that had their own producer in the studio with them telling you how they want things done?

Just curious to see how common it is in metal if at all, i dont track alot of bands, but i do a a fair amount of mixing and sometimes wish i was there to jump in at tracking stage

 

[StefTD]

I recorded a song from a few good friends of mine, and I had a few ideas which they
liked. They play Thrash/Prog Metal and asked me about their vocal lines and stuff.
In the end we "deleted" one part completely, changed a few riffs a little bit, wrote
an intro together and changed a few vocal lines.
Especially on the chorus, because it's a pretty cool part and the vocals just didn't
suit this part very well, it sounds more memorable now.

 

[Perishh]

I think putting ideas forward is a must as a producer, after all you are the one who always has the bigger picture in mind. When i'm tracking a band i'm always throwing ideas at them, and questioning why they decided to put this bit there and so on. In the end the songs always benefit from it and the bands are always thanking me for making them move riffs around to make the song flow better, or add harmonies here and there.

I like to let them know that they need to be open minded about their songs when they come in and not to shoot down ideas straight away. The studio is the last creative filter that a song needs to get through before its released and I believe its the most important.

 

[Melb_shredder]

I'm not sure how common they are, but I can safely say our album is much better off because of Ermins input. Sure, we disagreed on a few things, but for the most part, he just helped suggest things that were productive to the overall picture, and also, to concrete thoughts we had but weren't sure about. It's an outsiders perspective, and hopefully, from someone with a little insight to how the buiz goes

 

[jimwilbourne]

I definitely help shape the songs.

I've never worked with a Separate producer. but I have co-produced with a mixing engineer.

we're in the age of indie studios. it's important for you to be an all in one package.

 

[Mago]

With a producer for the band it's the same advantage as a guy who does mastering for the mixer
helps to take a look at your work from a different perspective, if you know what I mean...
Havent come across anyone who calls himself also "producer" for metal over here though.

 

[Fragle]

common practice over here...unless the band has a really worked out and clear vision of what exactly they're trying to do with each part/vocal line, i'll always comment on shaky parts or parts that don't fit, make a few suggestions, but ultimately it's up to the band of course.
since most of metal stuff is written on guitar, the riffing tends to be pretty solid so i'm not really encountering any difficulties there. bass is a different story though, i'll often suggest changed to make the line more interesting or to make it fit better with guitars and kick.

vocals are where most of the work is done...i'll spend a great deal of time together with the vocalist to make sure the vocals are at their best. we often add layers and interesting background stuff too...plus you got to make sure that he's performing in the right way....singing in the right style for that particular part, including gradual buildups etc.

to me, that's just part of the job.

 

[DeclanWhite]

joey?

 

[guitarguru777]

I "produce" every band I work with. 98% of the bands out there are open to the idea of having an outside perspective. The bands I work with in particulat are all this "new generation of thrash" type bands and being a guy who listens to and grew up in the 80s when this shit was popular is a big plus in that area. On the flip side I have also worked with bands that do this crab core death metal job for a cowboy / black dahlia / white chapel thing, and even those bands were open to ideas and input from an outside source. I have helped shape and sculpt riff, lyrics, solos, and even drum & bass parts.

I personally feel any musician who isn't willing to listen to an outside opinion is a fucking moron.

 

[Machinated]

i do preproduction with 99.9% of the bands i work with, if i dont like something in the song I'll bring it up and we'll discuss it. I dont expect to get my way all the time, but I want to get the band thinking about things with another perspective.

 

[Ermz]

I try to get involved in this way with every band. Some more than others of course, depending on their level of seniority and the quality/thoroughness of their preparation. For some projects I'm happy to just be the engineer, or mixing guy, but for most I like to get hands on in there and help flesh out the songs. The issues you run into as a consequence tend to be ones related to the band not understanding the importance of pre-production and not feeling confident booking time or investing their record funds into it. I always stress the importance of looking over the arrangements and making sure they will translate well to the record. The music, arrangements, tightness etc. are all interwoven and will affect you down the track when you mix the record. If you carry an attitude of preparedness with you the whole way, then things will be easier, and you will be fighting yourself less along the way.

Of course you don't get your way all the time, disagreements are natural as this is one big subjective affair. On the whole though if you can bring marked benefits to the band's end product, then it's all worth it.

 

[Sacha]

I definitely like to get really hands on if the band is open, adding guitar parts, keys, arrangement and vocal ideas all that shit. With Metal the budgets aren't really going to allow for seperate engineers and producers usually!

 

[GarethSE]

I liked to try and coach the best PERFORMANCE possible out of the performer, always going for a more heartfelt take, because that's what will connect with people, it may not be what sells, but it's what connects, and that's what'll lead a musician to be remembered.

There was on particularly instance with a vocalist who was terrified of singing any louder than the volume of a quiet conversation. 2 hours later I had him belting out his vocal lines, and it sounded fucking excellent.

Never really got that hands on with the songs themselves though,

 

[jipchen]

I'll tell whether I like a certain part or not, and if you got a "good" idea there's no use keeping it for yourself. Never had a band complaining about that, usually they are like "nice, good idea blabla".
I won't do any kind of furthergoing song arranging, but I tell them "this is a good part for a doubled rythmguitar / you could add a "third" there / how about playing a high melody over those chords / i'd add some sample here".
Never made a pre-production though.

 

[HandsOfDespair]

The problem with metal bands ( at least in my case) is that they're pretty stubborn with their ideas. Sometimes I just KNOW that this riff don't fit there, but they'll still want to keep it. It pisses me off but I can't do much more until I have a bigger reputation.

One of the weaknesses of the bands I worked with are definitely the keyboards. I recorded bands that no one in the band played keyboard or knew some virtual instruments, so I always add a ton of stuff, like ambiance or instruments, sometimes really low in the mix but it still add colors.

 

[nialldoran]

cool, alot of great advice there and some very straight forward reasoning i never really thought about it, i would be afraid to speak up in a session to do with creative input as im not the best songwriter or instrument player in the world,

but i suppose if ideas are suggested to the band in a modest, egoless way, then they should be open to ideas, even if they turn it down, i just dread the "what? your totally wrong dude, that section rocks, stick to working the desk, NERD"

suppose thats kinda over exagerating but you get the point

 

[aortizjr]

Typically you can kind of feel it out as the session goes how much creative input a band is willing to take.

These days I hope we are all doing this for the love of music, because we sure as hell aren't getting rich. And if your love is not for music, just turning knobs and staring at a computer for hours on end, then there are other much more profitable careers. Just sayin...

So... even if you aren't the best instrument player, you can still have a great understanding of music and how things flow. In fact sometimes the best instrument players are the most disconnected.

Typically I won't make full on arrangement changes or riff changes or something. Usually it is layers since for most bands since recording opens whole new doors. They can do harmonies, or background vocals, extra leads, etc. So it is helping them find a balance of too much but also needing more. Also getting the song to better portray the feeling and artist's vision.

So that may mean changing lyrics a bit, or fills, or altering guitar runs and such slightly for cleanliness, and what I think people will actually notice or care about.

Of course some are better at this than others, and personal style of the producer will show to some degree as well.

I think the only way to get better is to LISTEN to as much music as possible. All styles, all genres, etc. Even ones you don't like, think of what bugs you about it and how you would make it better.

 

[jipchen]

but i suppose if ideas are suggested to the band in a modest, egoless way, then they should be open to ideas, even if they turn it down, i just dread the "what? your totally wrong dude, that section rocks, stick to working the desk, NERD"

I know you were joking but really - on a sidenote - I don't think they'll ever say something like that, not even the direction. I never saw a full band that agreed on one topic anyways
I got used to say what I think of the songs because the first two EPs I recorded were for a good friend and I could tell him "that riff sounds like poop" and it was OK.
Just kept on with it (allthough a bit softer) with people I didn't know, especially in the beginning you really have to be careful not to "judge" them.
But normally you get to know the band members pretty quick, so you can recon how far you could go with your comments and ideas.
Not like I am super experienced, only had a few bands here.. but the atmosphere was really great and very relaxed.
Guess they can appreciate the engineer being honest. Don't see why you should not tell the singer that the take was not exactly that good - "that was good, but I know you can do better"<- singers love that sentence, and so do I

Singers are imho a bit special, the ones I worked with were really sensitive and discouraging them doesn't seem like the best idea to me

 

[nialldoran]

yeah if someone sucked at the take they just did, id make them do it again definatly, while being as nice as i can as you said you dont want to shatter their confidence in the middle of recording, i wouldnt anyway, im too nice but i just think id hold back a bit more when it comes to helping with how tracks are wrote played, etc, id have no quams about telling someone that im gone replace some drums with samples or change their tone if it doesnt suit or their amps cant get what they want, i just dont know how id feel telling some one differently about songs they have put work into,

i suppose i just need more tracking experiance, ill be a ruthless mofo in no time

 

[Fifth_Horseman]

Singers are imho a bit special, the ones I worked with were really sensitive and discouraging them doesn't seem like the best idea to me

I think that's because the voice is the only instrument you are born with.
If you criticize their performance, they feel like you automatically criticize THEM.