How to create a great Tom-Sound???

[FuryG]

Hello all,
I'm wondering how to create that awesome punchy and highly defined tom-sound, that is heard on most of the modern metal albums (Opeth "Deliverance", Dimmu Borgir "Death Cult Armageddon",...). Are they natural or triggered? Or a mix between both? Are these Drummers really hitting the drums that fucking hard, even with the fast rolls??
I'd be very grateful for some hints and tips! :Smug:

 

[Plec]

Depends on the playing and the drummer how you go about. A great kit with the right toms and drumheads for your intended sound are of course a must and then you can use samples subtly to enhance that original sound depending on what you need or wasn't able to capture in the original performance.

 

[Barth]

Are they natural or triggered? Or a mix between both?

Mix and more and more triggerd!

Are these Drummers really hitting the drums that fucking hard, even with the fast rolls??
I'd be very grateful for some hints and tips! :Smug:

There are a few who really hitting real hard, but then there is the bleed between the mics. Sometimes I replace everything. Not that the guys are makin' mistakes or hitting soft, but a sample you can comp without introducing unwanted noises.

 

[Andy Sneap]

Opeth is all natural, no trigger

 

[FuryG]

thx guys... so, if you want to replace the toms - how to do it the best way? with drumagog? or converting the single hits into midi-notes?

 

[Hopkins-WitchfinderGeneral]

Hello all,
Are they natural or triggered? Or a mix between both? Are these Drummers really hitting the drums that fucking hard, even with the fast rolls??

Compression and tight tuning.

 

[metaldrmmer83]

If the drummer doesnt know how to tune his toms, then you're going to have a tough time with your tom sound no matter where the place the mic or how much EQing you do. It all comes down to tuning!

 

[Hopkins-WitchfinderGeneral]

Well thats partly true IMO.

But to get really snappy hard sounds you're going to have to compress some to get that hard as hell sound.

 

[MR NINE]

If the drummer doesnt know how to tune his toms, then you're going to have a tough time with your tom sound no matter where the place the mic or how much EQing you do. It all comes down to tuning!

I agree completely!!!
Good drums + right heads+ good tuning + hard beating drummer+ good recording=
BIG DRUM SOUND!!!

 

[Kenny Lee]

Hardest hitting drummer I've ever seen -LIVE-
Kevin Talley! He hits hard and precise!!

 

[SPLASTiK]

Analogue Tape and a solid drummer with a good kit

 

[Soundscaper]

the harder they're hit, the nicer they sound is about 99% of my experience. Learn to tune the toms yourself, most drummer fail at doing this (at least the ones i come across) and experiment with all kinds of drumheads. Buy 5 different types for all toms and just keep on mounting and taking them of until you have it in the fingers, it's not that hard, just takes a little eartraining. As soon as you're able to predict the sound in the room, start experimenting with mikes and their position too, don't fear the EQ and start by taking out a lot of mids, see where that gets you. Watchout for bleed from cymbals, i usually ask drummer to positioin their cymbals a bit higher then what they would do for live playing. This helps in getting more definition in the tomsound and gives you freedom to add highEQ without too much cymbal interfering. Then finally compress 4:1 or more depending on dynamics of the drummer. A longer release helps if cymbalbleed becomes an issue.

And bottomline, Great Drummers get GREAT SOUNDS, good analog tape helps too.

 

[Plec]

I like balanced drummers more than hard hitting ones. Hitting the drums hard gives you more peak than resonance, and that's not what drums are all about. I'm not saying to hit loosely, but firm and with lots of control

I don't understand how you get good drumsounds with digital recording. I've never been satisfied with any drumsound, all the projects I've been doing digitally. But now, I've just started doing drums and guitars on 24 ch analogue and then transferring to digital, and it is soooooooo much easier to get a great sound that way it's almost redicioulus. Would be interesting to hear Andys' view on analogue vs. digital recording of drums and guitars.

 

[MR NINE]

I like balanced drummers more than hard hitting ones. Hitting the drums hard gives you more peak than resonance, and that's not what drums are all about. I'm not saying to hit loosely, but firm and with lots of control

I don't understand how you get good drumsounds with digital recording. I've never been satisfied with any drumsound, all the projects I've been doing digitally. But now, I've just started doing drums and guitars on 24 ch analogue and then transferring to digital, and it is soooooooo much easier to get a great sound that way it's almost redicioulus. Would be interesting to hear Andys' view on analogue vs. digital recording of drums and guitars.

Hi Plec!
I love analogue! And I'm with you about the analogue recording concept!
Digital just sounds arsh and cold!
By the way wich analogue recorder are you using? And what type of converters AD/DA are you using?
I usually record it in analogue then edit it in protools and after send it to analogue again for mixing!
Bottom end kiks ass like hell!!!

 

[Plec]

Hey MR NINE!

I've been using a Studer A827. I don't do analogue at my studio, so I've been going to a studio down the road for tracking the stuff I need (mostly drums) and then go back. I transfer to digital with Apogee AD8000 converters and might be using a Cranesong HEDD192 for a couple of channels too. Since I don't know jack about recording analogue I've had an assistant engineer take care of all the physical stuff in the machine room.

My feeling so far is that if you have a half descent sound and record it to great analogue it will usually turn out good, and if you have a great sound and record to analogue it will sound superb!

 

[Barth]

I bought me a Studer 820 and an Amek/Neve "Dead Man Series"

In wish I could mix on it! But here's the strongest point of ProTools, editing/Automation.
I record the slowerstuff, like Stoner on my Studer. Mixer and recordlevels on "Complete Nuts". Till I hear distortion and then a bit back. Then print it back to Protools for mixing. Ohh, and do'nt use noise reduction, this wiil distroy the famous tapecompression!

The fast guys, (and dolls), in Protools. If you record analog, import in Protools, replace a lot by samples, especially drums, whats the use of analog? None. It is for guitar and bass tough. Then there has Andy a good point, with fast stuff it gets muddy in the lows, so no analog.

And another major thing. Repairs!! My Studer punches great! But in PT you can do almost everything inmaginable. Tune, replace, copy, BeatDetictive, etc. You can make it (to?) perfect!

I believe in best of both worlds! Depends on what type of music you record.

For the fast stuff I use Andy's mixes as reference. He does great things!!
He knows perfect how to use compression and let the instruments fuse together! Further, he shares some of his secrets here on this forum!
I think he is a great inspiration for us!

And, eh Andy? I tried to crank the KSE FatCity snare with Channelstrip but does'nt even comes close to yours! It still sounds like......brrr.
Please Andy, how did you do it?!

 

[Andy Sneap]

Still sounds like brrr...is that a technical term

I really felt I was missing top end last time I used tape, which was 3 years ago now, there is a charm to it, but I can't be doing with the messing around, especially because I don't think it suits the style of music I am doing.

Just recorded the Arch Enemy show in London the otherday, Daniel was using the new Carbon Fibre Pearl kit with pretty shallow toms and Audix D2 and D4 mics, and it sounded surprisingly good, very controlled. He was using ambassador heads also, which I think can get a bit clacky (technical term again), but they worked well with the deadness of the carbon fibre.
I think my least favourite heads were the Aquarian pinstripe (quite a thick black stripe), whats everyone else using?? More of an Emperor fan myself.

 

[Barth]

Still sounds like brrr...is that a technical term

QUOTE]

Haha. No...Is is not a technical term. )
It still sound like crap, no matter what I tweak! What I'm I doing wrong?
The KSE production is a killer one Andy. Compliments ......again!

In fact, when you record on tape and you push levels, yeah then you miss attack. It's the tapecompression. When you record bands with the speed of sound then it is obvious to do it in ProTools. I do'nt always have topmusicians so, Repairs and copy. Thats what I like about PT!!

 

[MR NINE]

Still sounds like brrr...is that a technical term

I really felt I was missing top end last time I used tape, which was 3 years ago now, there is a charm to it, but I can't be doing with the messing around, especially because I don't think it suits the style of music I am doing.

Just recorded the Arch Enemy show in London the otherday, Daniel was using the new Carbon Fibre Pearl kit with pretty shallow toms and Audix D2 and D4 mics, and it sounded surprisingly good, very controlled. He was using ambassador heads also, which I think can get a bit clacky (technical term again), but they worked well with the deadness of the carbon fibre.
I think my least favourite heads were the Aquarian pinstripe (quite a thick black stripe), whats everyone else using?? More of an Emperor fan myself.

HI Andy!

Ok I agree that we loose some top end in analogue. But with the Quantegy GP9 tape it's a big difference, of course I'm talking about recording at 30ips. Anyway I think that with digital if you don't have good converters (and that's such a thing that you have!! RME rules! Even recording in digital with some kik ass preamps!) I always will choose analogue. But that's a matter of taste and direction or even the budget for the project I'm recording.
Oh the sound you got with KSEngaged it's awesome! I love the guitars sound is killer!!! They sound like if they were recorded with analogue, Jesus!!!
Oh my god and the bass on the coverversion of Megadeths's "symphony of..." by Arch Enemy!...OMG:


As for the drumheads I'm using Evans G2 coated (on top), G1 clear (bottom) on toms; kik Remo Emperor with patch; snare Evans dry with airvents (top), Hazy opaque (bottom). Drumkit Premier Resonator: 13", 14", 16", 18" (toms), 22"x16" (kik) 8"x14 (snare)

 

[MR NINE]

Hey MR NINE!

I've been using a Studer A827. I don't do analogue at my studio, so I've been going to a studio down the road for tracking the stuff I need (mostly drums) and then go back. I transfer to digital with Apogee AD8000 converters and might be using a Cranesong HEDD192 for a couple of channels too. Since I don't know jack about recording analogue I've had an assistant engineer take care of all the physical stuff in the machine room.

My feeling so far is that if you have a half descent sound and record it to great analogue it will usually turn out good, and if you have a great sound and record to analogue it will sound superb!

HI there Plec!!
Nice machinery you've got there!!!
I'm using (everytime that's possible!) an Otari MX80 with digidesign converters, besides that I'm still using Adats with a Digirack002.
As for analogue recording take a look at this:

www.modrec.com

and this:
www.digido.com

Lots of info about recording with analogue and converters!