I used to be against the war effort, but now I'm thinking twice.

[Hubster]

Perhaps this is the wrong place to post this, perhaps not, as I've seen some intelligent topics come and go. Mods can close this thread if so desired.

Like many of the leftist side of the fence, I've been against the war for some time.

Raised by an indepedent and feminist mother, and having been surrounded by strong female personalities all my life, this Time cover has rocked me to my core... and made my opinion on the war change a bit. An article about it is here. Please check it out.

If indeed our allied troops are making a difference, and to to the plight of these women, than I say fuck the Taliban and let's continue to support them.

This shit has to stop. Can we make it stop? I don't know. But we can't stand by and do nothing. This treatment of human beings is truly disgusting.

Pls, no leftist flaming. That's not what this post is about. It's about keeping our troops in Afghanistan. Discuss.

 

[metal_wrath]

I am of the belief that we did not have any reason to enter Afghanistan in the first place.

However, how many women have lost not only parts of their face but limbs, their sight, hearing... how many folks have lost their families at the hands of the US troops which wrongfully occupy their country.

We will not "win" this war. Look how long we have stayed in this country and how much has changed. Obviously our staying in the country has not prevented this woman from being mutilated.

This news piece is very manipulative anyway. If they are able to change people's minds about our continued "efforts" in Afghanistan then their propaganda has worked.

 

[Krigloch the Furious]

are we fighting the enemy correctly?

the picture doesnt surprise me at all.

 

[King Richard]

The Taliban only has pawns in Afghanistan, the place we need to invade, for lack of a better term, is Pakistan, because that's where most of the Taliban is headquartered.

In response to the OP, I find it disturbing that you are just now willing to say "fuck the Taliban" when they're guilty of much worse than some woman being disfigured.

 

[ArneZ]

"America is the enemy. Church is the enemy." - Varg Vikernes

 

[King Richard]

Yeah, well, Varg is also a fucking idiot so...

 

[Hubster]

@King Drunkard: No I'm aware that they have done much worse ... I'm not "just now" saying they suddenly are bad because of this one photo, certainly didn't mean it anyway.

I just feel that (for me anyway) seeing such a dramatic portrait does drive home a sense of legitimacy for troops remaining there. Previously I was very against it, but this more than anything has given me the inclination to pause and consider there is a legitimate need to warrant troops staying. But on what level or scale? I don't know.

I think your point about Pakistan is quite valid.

@metal_wrath & also Krig: The photo isn't surprising, but is no less a horrific visual portrayal of the things going on. And no doubt it happens in Iran and in Pakistan as well as Africa and other countries. No, we can't stop it.

With the war, it's not a black and white situation at all. I don't think any of the answers are simple. The length of time this has been going on in conjunction with the situation in which the allies ended up going there makes the enture thing very messy and very grey.

I agree: we won't "win" this war. And we barely know what our objective is anymore. What is the war really about? That a minority of Muslims are causing a LOT of problems for the west and something needs to be done about it?

As for the image itself... Is it as simple as saying the image is propaganda though? Is it possible we've come to expect propaganda so much that when something legitimate comes along we miss it altogether? We in the west have become so suspicious since 9/11, it borders on the hysterical (spending time in the middle east earlier this year made me really realise that). Mind you, it has calmed down since the Bush "regime" was outed...

"America is the enemy. Church is the enemy." - Varg Vikernes

No. Churches, Mosques and Synagogues. All three are the root of the problems we see continuing to this very day imo.

Yeah, well, Varg is also a fucking idiot so...

Also an extremely intelligent one, who does have some valid points.

 

[challenge_everything]

This is a situation which has been repeated numerous times throughout history. America - always keen to go to war, not so keen to stick around to put the country in a decent state afterwards. I agree Hubster, I was against the war too (I haven't changed my mind on the wrongness of that decision), but once you've committed to invading a country, you need to at least have the courtesy of leaving it in a manner which gives its citizens hope for the future. I know a lot of leading military officers have said going to war in Iraq was a ridiculous decision, as the shit in Afghanistan ought to have been dealt with. Both countries are now in a dire state, violence is entrenched, and there's not the military support in either place for even a medium-term solution.

 

[waif]

The war in Iraq was a mistake; things were definitely better under Saddam and they are unlikely to improve in any lasting way any time soon. At this point I would say both Iraq and Afghanistan are fucked. I'm undecided on whether it's better to cut our losses and pull out or if something could actually be salvaged.

The Islamic world is fucked up because they're clinging to repressive 1400-year old traditions while faced with the modern, liberated west. Eventually, inevitably they'll cave in to modern social values but it will take time and what we are seeing now is in my mind the last stand of fundamental Islam. That said, it could be 20 or 50 years before Islam's role in middle eastern society is reduced to a similar level as Christianity's in western society (go ahead and complain about fundamentalist Christians but when was the last time you were harassed in any way for walking down the street without a hat?).

 

[Hubster]

Before I continue, I want to state I'm a lover of my life in the West. Being of ethnic origin (but not a practitioner of my religion or culture) of birth, I count my freedom in western life to be a real luxury. Yeah, I guess it's a disclaimer of sorts.

It's not as black and white as saying Islam is clinging to repressive 1400 year old traditions. Don't get me wrong, I disagree with many things I see them practice. I don't like their treatment of women, I can't stand it actually. I don't like the religion's disciminatory aspects (although all organised religions have this also: Christianity, Judaism, my religion by birth, Sikhism, the list goes on).

But there *is* some beauty to their way of life. We just don't see it here in the west, not much of it anyway. During Ramadan for example, they celebrate life in a way we just don't in the west. They take it to it's core, with simple lively meals and the enjoyment of their families. They turn this simple thing into a real festival, every night, for a whole month. It's beautiful.

There are also a number of newer generations of Muslims in the middle east and the west who are modernising/westernising, but also trying to remain true to their relgious beliefs. This is a tough balance, it will take several generations to even out. I hope they get there. Yes, they've been stagnant for well over a thousand years, but things are changing. This is one of the reasons they have so much internal debate with how their religion is practiced (just as Christianity did and still does).

I don't know if their religion will be so reduced in society as Christianity has become - their laws are VERY strong, and it will take at least 100 years for a significant change given the modern muslims are a minority. But I do think there's an element of truth to what you're saying.

There's another factor too though: the rate at which they're growing is massive. The spread of Islam around the globe is achieving what the Moors failed to do against King Charles of France (if my memory serves) back in medieval Europe, which is to make Europe an Islamic nation. At the rate of their growth now, if it continues, I think this quite possible. One only needs look at the effects of Islam in Norway and France for examples of this explosive growth and effects of migration. It's only the start.

 

[metal_wrath]

When was it that this happened? American troops have been in that country for almost a decade, and this is still happening?

There is no reason at all to believe that the US is going to somehow eventually stop this type of thing from happening, quite the contrary. Meanwhile you have woman and children having their bodies exploded in half by US troops, innocent people burning alive in buildings and vehicles targeted by US gunfire and bombs, Afghan woman being tortured and raped by US troops, and the future of the entire country gets more and more bleak every year the US continues this "war".

"In its annual report on human rights, the United Nations warned that women's condition has been deteriorating ever since the US forces invaded the country in 2001 under the pretext of liberating the Afghan nation from the Taliban regime." http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=87723&sectionid=351020403

Should we go to war with Mexico due to the enormous amount of kidnappings and torture that goes on in their country?

 

[Hubster]

^ But is it right to totally pull out if this kind of thing is so prevalent in Afghanistan? Keeping in mind of course (in the context of the Time photograph), the reason for invading Afghanistan wasn't anything to do with torture etc. We've discovered it's more widespread as a result of being there so long in the first place...

Such a hard call, this whole thing. There are pro's and con's to all the points we've all raised in this thread so far. The whole affair is messy as all hell.

 

[Pessimism]

I would never assume a fundamentalist/religious population that has clung to "traditional" values would cave to modernity just because it exists all around them.

If you want to stay in Afghanistan or anywhere else, there are some simple things that will actually work (as they have already been shown to work):

1. Build schools - education typically leads to some sort of questioning and self awareness

1a. Build schools for WOMEN - when the most heavily subjugated part of your society gains a modicum of opportunity, they will reach for more via education and civil action

2. Everything you build for them, physically give them - When you turn something like a newly built school into a gift, and build it with both your (the "west's" and "east's") physical requirements in mind, it looks really good. REALLY GOOD. The last time a massive section of civilians were killed, one of the uprising sectors that went on a spree of destruction destroyed every contractor and western housed area EXCEPT for the schools that were built. Those schools themselves were defended by the elders of the are who replied to the younger anger driven generations "this (the woman's school that had just been built two days prior) is ours; if you try to destroy it, we will kill you".

Now, this one is certainly debatable. I have no idea where I really stand on it because I have no idea how it would play out...

3. Let the Taliban exist - in light of education and the increased social dynamics (which have already been shown to be a glorious option because it works), let the Taliban exist as a political entity. The hope is that as people become more self aware, they will realize that there own worst enemy is themselves. Over time, the party will be done away with. Whether this is even possible is completely up to debate.


TLDR: Focus on education, specifically educating women, and the area should become much better overall.

 

[Pessimism]

Frankly, teaching women how to throw acid might help stop assholes from disfiguring women.

A bad joke, I know.. but fucking hell.

 

[Hubster]

true. And it might not sound as absurd as you may think. Women in Pakistan for example have been slowly standing up and defending themselves.

 

[waif]

I would never assume a fundamentalist/religious population that has clung to "traditional" values would cave to modernity just because it exists all around them.

Maybe, but

Not exactly the greatest threat facing our society.

 

[Pessimism]

I've never seen Jebediah throw acid in his betrothed's face because she was afraid of being married to her cousin (age 32) and age 16.

 

[False Joe]

The whole affair is messy as all hell.

Goodness, I had no idea! For you see, I have been on Mars for the last decade, in a cave, with my eyes shut and my fingers in my ears.

 

[Hubster]

Goodness, I had no idea! And the thing is that because I have nothing to contribute to the discussion, I'm just going to write something incredibly stupid instead!

Fixed.

 

[Hubster]

No doubt you folks have heard about this by now:

Mosque Near Ground Zero Clears Key Hurdle
By JAVIER C. HERNANDEZ

After a protracted battle that set off a national debate over freedom of religion, a Muslim center and mosque to be built two blocks from ground zero surmounted a final hurdle on Tuesday.

The city’s Landmarks Preservation Commission voted 9 to 0 against granting historic protection to the building at 45-47 Park Place in Lower Manhattan, where the $100 million center would be built.

That decision clears the way for the construction of Park51, a tower of as many as 15 stories that will house a mosque, a 500-seat auditorium, and a pool. Its leaders say it will be modeled on the Y.M.C.A. and Jewish Community Center in Manhattan.

Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg was scheduled to deliver a speech in support of the mosque Tuesday afternoon on Governors Island.

The vote on Tuesday was free of much of the vitriol that had been part of previous hearings. One by one, members of the commission debated the aesthetic significance of the building, designed in the Italian Renaissance Palazzo style by an unknown architect.

Christopher Moore, a member of the commission, said the vote was not a matter of religion, though he argued that the building could not be divorced from the memory of the Sept. 11 attacks.

“It is not directly on ground zero, but it is a part of ground zero,” Mr. Moore said.

After the commission voted, several members of the audience shouted “Shame on you!” and “Disgrace!” One woman carried a sign reading, “Don’t Glorify Murders of 3,000; No 9/11 Victory Mosque.”

The issue had divided family members of those killed on Sept. 11. Some argued it was insensitive to the memory of those who died in the attacks. Others saw it as a symbol of tolerance to counter the religious extremism that prevailed on that day.

The debate over the center has become a heated political issue, drawing opposition from former Gov. Sarah Palin of Alaska and members of the Tea Party.

The Anti-Defamation League, an influential Jewish organization, unexpectedly entered the fray on Friday and said it opposed the project.

On Tuesday, Rick A. Lazio, a Republican candidate for governor, appeared at the vote, in an auditorium at Pace University near City Hall, to oppose the project. Mr. Lazio called on his Democratic rival, Attorney General Andrew M. Cuomo, to investigate the finances of the group spearheading the project, the Cordoba Initiative.

“Let’s have transparency,” Mr. Lazio said. “If they’re foreign governments, we ought to know about it. If they’re radical organizations, we ought to know about it.”

He added, “This is not about religion. It’s about this particular mosque.”

Sharif El-Gamal, chief executive of SoHo Properties, the developer of the project, praised the commission’s decision. He said the center represented “an American dream which so many others share.”

“We are Americans — Muslim Americans,” he said. “We are businessmen, businesswomen, lawyers, doctors, restaurant workers, cabdrivers, and professionals of every walk of life, represented by the demographic and tapestry of Manhattan.”

* Copyright 2010 The New York Times Company

The comments on the page after the article are interesting too.