I used to be against the war effort, but now I'm thinking twice.

[waif]

I have to say that while I'm generally in favor of tolerance and all that jazz, I really don't think they should build a mosque there. It's really, really fucking tasteless.

 

[metal_wrath]

^ But is it right to totally pull out if this kind of thing is so prevalent in Afghanistan? Keeping in mind of course (in the context of the Time photograph), the reason for invading Afghanistan wasn't anything to do with torture etc. We've discovered it's more widespread as a result of being there so long in the first place...

Such a hard call, this whole thing. There are pro's and con's to all the points we've all raised in this thread so far. The whole affair is messy as all hell.

I don't see how the US has benefited the women of Afghanistan in any way but there are plenty of obvious ways that the US has caused more pain and suffering. The US went to the country to start a war, and the war is not going to end peacefully, therefore there is no good that could come from the US staying in Afghanistan.

 

[King Richard]

I disagree with the people who claim the Iraq war was wrong to do, a mistake, or what have you. I'm not saying this because I'm a vet and have been over there watching my friends get blown up. My problem with the Iraq war was with the way it was initiated by the government and how a lot of people were deceived for the reasoning behind the war. I think invading Iraq and ousting Hussein was a no-brainer. To claim that Iraq would have been better off with Hussein still in power is a little crazy imo. Saddam Hussein was an oppressive fuckhead and deserved what he got. I would have been totally fine with Bush just telling the American people and the world, "Hey gang, Saddam Hussein is an oppressive fuckhead, and we're going to kick his ass." Making up a bunch of bs about WoMD and all that other crap was what angered me.

As I mentioned earlier, the Afghanistan war serves its purpose, and that's to remove terrorirsts and Al Qaeda from that region and to prevent it from returning. The "war on terror" however, is only begun. Pretty soon we'll be invading Pakistan and doing the same thing there and so on until that entire region has been cleansed of dbags who like to murder and use scare tactics to impose their will on innocent people.

 

[Pessimism]

I have to say that while I'm generally in favor of tolerance and all that jazz, I really don't think they should build a mosque there. It's really, really fucking tasteless.

I find it incredibly tasteful actually; to think that an American public could not only see a terrorist attack for what it is and rooted in, but be able to differentiate one religious zeal from another and recognize their fellow citizens and respect them and say "we can overcome this together".

But, unfortunately, this is America - A racist salad bowl that tries to tell itself it's a melting pot.

The tasteless aspect to this is that Bush had eight fucking years to build a memorial. Instead he sat there with his thumb up his ass.


Tensions Flare over Proposed Mosque - New York Times

But just 20 minutes earlier, as Bill Finnegan stood at the microphone, came the meeting’s single moment of hushed silence. Mr. Finnegan said he was a Marine lance corporal, home from Afghanistan, where he had worked as a mediator with warring tribes.

After the sustained standing ovation that followed his introduction, he turned to the Muslims on the panel: “My question to you is, will you work to form a cohesive bond with the people of this community?” The men said yes.

Then he turned to the crowd. “And will you work to form a cohesive bond with these people — your new neighbors?”

The crowd erupted in boos. “No!” someone shouted.

 

[Blind Guardian]

Similarly to what I wrote in the Europe VS USA thread; if people take offense from a mosque being built near ground zero, it's only because of their tiny reference frame when it comes to Islam. The religion is 1400 years old and has 1.5 billion followers, yet 9/11 is the only thing it symbolizes to some. I'm not trying to be PC or anything, but that level of uneducation and egocentrism annoys me. Same thing when some people can only link Germany to nazism, despite the enormous influence various parts of German culture have had on the world.

 

[waif]

I don't see how you can blame people for getting upset. The 9/11 attackers intended it to be perceived by Americans as a general assault on the west by the entire Islamic world - the extremists want to be perceived as the majority. Most Americans have extremely little if any contact with muslims, and 9/11 was a traumatic event that has seared itself into the national consciousness. It's no wonder that when most Americans think of Islam they can only think of 9/11 and the subsequent wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Regardless, the actual fact is that 9/11 was an attack by radical Islam - separate from but related to the non-psycho-dickhead brand presumably preached by the people who want to build this mosque - and so a mosque - a symbol of radical Islam as well as moderate Islam - being placed near the site of a horrible attack by radical Islam - you can't understand why that would offend perfectly rational people? Add in that most Americans have only been exposed to the radical Islam that dominates the news and, well....

 

[Pessimism]

Maybe people should read up on the differences of an American coalition of Muslims versus some wahhabist fuckhead group before forming an opinion on what should or should not be built.

 

[The Emptier]

theres nothing to stop, taliban and al qaeda are fake

 

[Cythraul]

I haven't read up much on the whole 'mosque at ground zero' issue, but from what I know about it, I simply do not see what the problem is. Since when did the fact that something offends personal taste and an inability to make simple distinctions regarding a particular religion constitute a compelling justification for prohibiting some activity???

 

[waif]

That is true, it's the American thing to do. People would probably be fine with a German restaurant across the street from a World War 2 memorial, and that's more or less the same thing.

 

[metal_wrath]

I personally do not believe everything I see on TV. I would need actual PROOF to believe that the perpetrators of the attacks on the WTC were actually radical Muslims.

theres nothing to stop, taliban and al qaeda are fake

Even if they are in fact real, there is still nothing to stop. For every actual Al Qaeda or Taliban leader killed the US troops are destroying many times more Afghani lives and more people will join these groups.

 

[rms]

I don't see how the US has benefited the women of Afghanistan in any way but there are plenty of obvious ways that the US has caused more pain and suffering. The US went to the country to start a war, and the war is not going to end peacefully, therefore there is no good that could come from the US staying in Afghanistan.

how can you gauge this? lol I don't think you understand how strict the ROE in the war for the American Military

 

[metal_wrath]

wtf

 

[Dak]

We had no real reason to be in Iraq or Afghanistan except to make Cheney and friends money.

Both countries are now worse off than before we invaded, and in neither country have we made any progress on bringing the people supposedly responsible for 9/11 to justice.

We should have never invaded, and every day we are in either country, is a day too long.

Edit: And this is coming from someone with 6 months of boots on the ground in the Al Anbar province of Iraq, handing out food/patrolling small villages/countryside.

@RMS: But the ROE hasn't always been as strict, and there apparently is no ROE for Predators/other UAVs. Also, Blackwater and other merc services have no ROE.

 

[Hubster]

Similarly to what I wrote in the Europe VS USA thread; if people take offense from a mosque being built near ground zero, it's only because of their tiny reference frame when it comes to Islam.

This is a great point. In Australia since 9/11, things have been very Islamaphobic, and I really didn't get that until I was in Dubai because of how differently I saw Islam and attitudes there. Provided, the UAE is probably the most liberal Islamic region there is, so it's hard to say just how much in its 'natural state' I saw Islam being.

It brought to light just how skewed the western perception of Islam has become since 9/11. Our reference point was 9/11, sprinkled with things like the first Gulf War and other events, and we haven't moved on from that enough. You can understand why a lot of the good Muslims are getting so frustrated and constantly having to defend themselves.

At the same time though, and as someone who works with and knows plenty of Muslims in IT, from my discussions with them there does seem to be, socially anyway, a practice of intolerance and lack of flexibility in their attitudes towards western culture. It's not as big as everyone thinks it is, but it's definitely there and does need some work.

I think we in the west also need to understand more about Islam. Islam is now a much larger part of the western world, that's a reality. We need to understand more about it so we can make our own adjustments too.

 

[challenge_everything]

I would never assume a fundamentalist/religious population that has clung to "traditional" values would cave to modernity just because it exists all around them.

If you want to stay in Afghanistan or anywhere else, there are some simple things that will actually work (as they have already been shown to work):

1. Build schools - education typically leads to some sort of questioning and self awareness

1a. Build schools for WOMEN - when the most heavily subjugated part of your society gains a modicum of opportunity, they will reach for more via education and civil action

2. Everything you build for them, physically give them - When you turn something like a newly built school into a gift, and build it with both your (the "west's" and "east's") physical requirements in mind, it looks really good. REALLY GOOD. The last time a massive section of civilians were killed, one of the uprising sectors that went on a spree of destruction destroyed every contractor and western housed area EXCEPT for the schools that were built. Those schools themselves were defended by the elders of the are who replied to the younger anger driven generations "this (the woman's school that had just been built two days prior) is ours; if you try to destroy it, we will kill you".

Now, this one is certainly debatable. I have no idea where I really stand on it because I have no idea how it would play out...

3. Let the Taliban exist - in light of education and the increased social dynamics (which have already been shown to be a glorious option because it works), let the Taliban exist as a political entity. The hope is that as people become more self aware, they will realize that there own worst enemy is themselves. Over time, the party will be done away with. Whether this is even possible is completely up to debate.


TLDR: Focus on education, specifically educating women, and the area should become much better overall.

This.

 

[Hubster]

I came across an interesting article in the New York Times, in light of the opposition for building a mosque at Ground Zero:

Across Nation, Mosque Projects Meet Opposition
By LAURIE GOODSTEIN

While a high-profile battle rages over a mosque near ground zero in Manhattan, heated confrontations have also broken out in communities across the country where mosques are proposed for far less hallowed locations.

In Murfreesboro, Tenn., Republican candidates have denounced plans for a large Muslim center proposed near a subdivision, and hundreds of protesters have turned out for a march and a county meeting.

In late June, in Temecula, Calif., members of a local Tea Party group took dogs and picket signs to Friday prayers at a mosque that is seeking to build a new worship center on a vacant lot nearby.

In Sheboygan, Wis., a few Christian ministers led a noisy fight against a Muslim group that sought permission to open a mosque in a former health food store bought by a Muslim doctor.

At one time, neighbors who did not want mosques in their backyards said their concerns were over traffic, parking and noise — the same reasons they might object to a church or a synagogue. But now the gloves are off.

In all of the recent conflicts, opponents have said their problem is Islam itself. They quote passages from the Koran and argue that even the most Americanized Muslim secretly wants to replace the Constitution with Islamic Shariah law.

These local skirmishes make clear that there is now widespread debate about whether the best way to uphold America’s democratic values is to allow Muslims the same religious freedom enjoyed by other Americans, or to pull away the welcome mat from a faith seen as a singular threat.

“What’s different is the heat, the volume, the level of hostility,” said Ihsan Bagby, associate professor of Islamic studies at the University of Kentucky. “It’s one thing to oppose a mosque because traffic might increase, but it’s different when you say these mosques are going to be nurturing terrorist bombers, that Islam is invading, that civilization is being undermined by Muslims.”

Feeding the resistance is a growing cottage industry of authors and bloggers — some of them former Muslims — who are invited to speak at rallies, sell their books and testify in churches. Their message is that Islam is inherently violent and incompatible with America.

But they have not gone unanswered. In each community, interfaith groups led by Protestant ministers, Catholic priests, rabbis and clergy members of other faiths have defended the mosques. Often, they have been slower to organize than the mosque opponents, but their numbers have usually been larger.

The mosque proposed for the site near ground zero in Lower Manhattan cleared a final hurdle last week before the city’s Landmarks Preservation Commission, and Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg hailed the decision with a forceful speech on religious liberty. While an array of religious groups supported the project, opponents included the Anti-Defamation League, an influential Jewish group, and prominent Republicans like Sarah Palin and Newt Gingrich, the former House speaker.

A smaller controversy is occurring in Temecula, about 60 miles north of San Diego, involving a typical stew of religion, politics and anti-immigrant sentiment. A Muslim community has been there for about 12 years and expanded to 150 families who have outgrown their makeshift worship space in a warehouse, said Mahmoud Harmoush, the imam, a lecturer at California State University, San Bernardino. The group wants to build a 25,000-square-foot center, with space for classrooms and a playground, on a lot it bought in 2000.

Mr. Harmoush said the Muslim families had contributed to the local food bank, sent truckloads of supplies to New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina, and participated in music nights and Thanksgiving events with the local interfaith council.

“We do all these activities and nobody notices,” he said. “Now that we have to build our center, everybody jumps to make it an issue.”

Recently, a small group of activists became alarmed about the mosque. Diana Serafin, a grandmother who lost her job in tech support this year, said she reached out to others she knew from attending Tea Party events and anti-immigration rallies. She said they read books by critics of Islam, including former Muslims like Walid Shoebat, Wafa Sultan and Manoucher Bakh. She also attended a meeting of the local chapter of ACT! for America, a Florida-based group that says its purpose is to defend Western civilization against Islam.

“As a mother and a grandmother, I worry,” Ms. Serafin said. “I learned that in 20 years with the rate of the birth population, we will be overtaken by Islam, and their goal is to get people in Congress and the Supreme Court to see that Shariah is implemented. My children and grandchildren will have to live under that.”

“I do believe everybody has a right to freedom of religion,” she said. “But Islam is not about a religion. It’s a political government, and it’s 100 percent against our Constitution.”

Ms. Serafin was among an estimated 20 to 30 people who turned out to protest the mosque, including some who intentionally took dogs to offend those Muslims who consider dogs to be ritually unclean. But they were outnumbered by at least 75 supporters. The City of Temecula recently postponed a hearing on whether to grant the mosque a permit.

Larry Slusser, a Mormon and the secretary of the Interfaith Council of Murietta and Temecula, went to the protest to support the Muslim group. “I know them,” he said. “They’re good people. They have no ill intent. They’re good Americans. They are leaders in their professions.”

Of the protesters, he said, “they have fear because they don’t know them.”

Religious freedom is also at stake, Mr. Slusser said, adding, “They’re Americans, they deserve to have a place to worship just like everybody else.”

There are about 1,900 mosques in the United States, which run the gamut from makeshift prayer rooms in storefronts and houses to large buildings with adjoining community centers, according to a preliminary survey by Mr. Bagby, who conducted a mosque study 10 years ago and is now undertaking another.

A two-year study by a group of academics on American Muslims and terrorism concluded that contemporary mosques are actually a deterrent to the spread of militant Islam and terrorism. The study was conducted by professors with Duke’s Sanford School of Public Policy and the University of North Carolina. It disclosed that many mosque leaders had put significant effort into countering extremism by building youth programs, sponsoring antiviolence forums and scrutinizing teachers and texts.

Radicalization of alienated Muslim youths is a real threat, Mr. Bagby said. “But the youth we worry about,” he said, “are not the youth that come to the mosque.”

In central Tennessee, the mosque in Murfreesboro is the third one in the last year to encounter resistance. It became a political issue when Republican candidates for governor and Congress declared their opposition. (They were defeated in primary elections on Thursday.)

A group called Former Muslims United put up a billboard saying “Stop the Murfreesboro Mosque.” The group’s president is Nonie Darwish, also the founder of Arabs for Israel, who spoke against Islam in Murfreesboro at a fund-raising dinner for Christians United for Israel, an evangelical organization led by the Rev. John Hagee.

“A mosque is not just a place for worship,” Ms. Darwish said in an interview. “It’s a place where war is started, where commandments to do jihad start, where incitements against non-Muslims occur. It’s a place where ammunition was stored.”

Camie Ayash, a spokeswoman for the Islamic Center of Murfreesboro, lamented that people were listening to what she called “total disinformation” on Islam.

She said her group was stunned when what began as one person raising zoning questions about the new mosque evolved into mass protests with marchers waving signs about Shariah.

“A lot of Muslims came to the U.S. because they respect the Constitution,” she said. “There’s no conflict with the U.S. Constitution in Shariah law. If there were, Muslims wouldn’t be living here.”

In Wisconsin, the conflict over the mosque was settled when the Town Executive Council voted unanimously to give the Islamic Society of Sheboygan a permit to use the former health food store as a prayer space.

Dr. Mansoor Mirza, the physician who owns the property, said he was trying to take the long view of the controversy.

“Every new group coming to this country — Jews, Catholics, Irish, Germans, Japanese — has gone through this,” Dr. Mirza said. “Now I think it’s our turn to pay the price, and eventually we will be coming out of this, too.”

 

[mutantllama]

I don't think any religious building should be built on Ground Zero.