Interesting....

[sixxswine]

http://www.bravewords.com/news/85143

The Church Of Satan's Reverend David Harris - "Most Of These Black Metal Musicians That Are Adorning Corpse-Paint And Setting Churches On Fire Are Actually Christians That Are Simply Worshiping The Representation Of Evil In That Model"
Posted on Sunday, March 09, 2008 at 12:24:20 EST

Norway's Imhotep spoke to Reverend David Harris, member of the Priesthood of Mendes and host of Satanism Today for an in-depth interview concerning the Church Of Satan and what it’s all about and what it really represents. Here are a few excerpts from the chat:

Imhotep: It seems many Death Metal and Black Metal bands consider themselves Satanists simply because they walk around with upside crosses carved into their foreheads or better yet, such in Scandinavia during the 1990’s there was an influx of black metal bands who wound up burning down local churches, how do you or the Church Of Satan feel about these actions?

Harris: “As I stated earlier, these folks are clearly not practicing Satanism, but are instead practicing devil worship. Most of these "black metal" musicians that are adorning corpse-paint and setting churches on fire are ACTUALLY Christians that are simply worshiping the representation of evil in that model. These folks are nothing more than kooks that are looking to score points with a devil that doesn't exist. And of course, they are causing destruction of someone else's property, whatever that property may be, which can cause you to be arrested, which certainly does not lead one to an indulgent, productive lifestyle. So make no mistake about it, if you're setting fire to churches, you are certainly an asshole, but you're no Satanist.”

 

[Wyvern]

Interesting indeed. I'm not going into details, I abhor religious discussions, but nevertheless this guy made an interesting point of view

So make no mistake about it, if you're setting fire to churches, you are certainly an asshole, but you're no Satanist.”

 

[poundingmetal74]

I liked that quote too, wyv. Interesting read.

And I agree, let's not get into a religious debate... We don't need another Global Warming argument popping up again.

NP: Siam - New Age Warning

 

[rokk]

“As I stated earlier, these folks are clearly not practicing Satanism, but are instead practicing devil worship."

I have a few questions...

Does that mean that "Satanism" and "Devil Worship" are two different things?

And if they are two differnt things does that then mean that Satan is not a Devil? or "The Devil"?

What would the definition of practicing "Satanism" be?

 

[sixxswine]

Interesting indeed. I'm not going into details, I abhor religious discussions, but nevertheless this guy made an interesting point of view

No debate intended. I just thought that it was interesting that the guy more or less called out the black metal people/musicians doing this posers...

 

[Wyvern]

And if they are two differnt things does that then mean that Satan is not a Devil? or "The Devil"?

Well actually it is not. Satan comes from the Hebrew Ha-Satan (the accuser) and it's basically a God subordinate who asks permission from God to smithe Job with grief and plagues to test his faith.

The devil is a more complex figure derived later in Christianism. I recommend to read this book:
[ame]http://www.amazon.com/History-Devil-Idea-Evil-Carus/dp/0766183009/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1205269774&sr=1-3[/ame]

it's pretty interesting (at least I enjoyed it).

 

[Thoth-Amon]

I have a few questions...

Does that mean that "Satanism" and "Devil Worship" are two different things?

And if they are two differnt things does that then mean that Satan is not a Devil? or "The Devil"?

What would the definition of practicing "Satanism" be?

Satanism as in LaVeyan Satanism and Devil Worship are two different things. Devil worship is the belief in and actual worship of Satan, the devil. Satanism is an atheistic, self-indulgent philosophy which uses Satan as a symbol or resistance against herd conformity and conventional morality. Satanists do not actually believe in or worship Satan, they use him as a symbol to represent their carnal philosophy.

 

[Trans-Siberian Outcast]

Satanism as in LaVeyan Satanism and Devil Worship are two different things. Devil worship is the belief in and actual worship of Satan, the devil. Satanism is an atheistic, self-indulgent philosophy which uses Satan as a symbol or resistance against herd conformity and conventional morality. Satanists do not actually believe in or worship Satan, they use him as a symbol to represent their carnal philosophy.

What he said! Nailed it dead on. You need to brush up on your Satanic Bible, rokk.

 

[rokk]

Satanism as in LaVeyan Satanism and Devil Worship are two different things. Devil worship is the belief in and actual worship of Satan, the devil. Satanism is an atheistic, self-indulgent philosophy which uses Satan as a symbol or resistance against herd conformity and conventional morality. Satanists do not actually believe in or worship Satan, they use him as a symbol to represent their carnal philosophy.

If Satanism is atheistic, why use the symbol of a Diety to represent themselves?

What he said! Nailed it dead on. You need to brush up on your Satanic Bible, rokk.

I have read it but I don't remember it representing my carnal philosphies.

 

[Thoth-Amon]

If Satanism is atheistic, why use the symbol of a Diety to represent themselves?



I have read it but I don't remember it representing my carnal philosphies.

Satan is not a deity in Judeo-Christian thought. Satan is a fallen angel. They use Satan (aside from the fact that it is an excellent gimmick) because he is the antithesis of the Judeo-Christian God. From the Satanist point of view in our society the Judeo-Christian God and his religion(s) represent the epitome of herd conformity and forced morality, therefore to show their opposition not only to Christianity per se but also to the qualities embodied in this religion (i.e. faith before reason, abstinence instead of indulgence, herd conformity instead of individualism, etc.) they use the symbol of the antagonist of the Christian faith.

 

[Wyvern]

Satan is not a deity in Judeo-Christian thought. Satan is a fallen angel.

As I explained before to Jewish faith Satan is just a subordinate of God (read Job on the Old Testament). Christianism which is a totally different faith from Jewish created the Devil and paired it with Satan, the serpent, the beast, etc.

I'm Jewish and I dislike the use of Judeo-Christian as a couple, we don't believe in Jesus, he IS NOT the Christ (Messiah in Greek) we are still awaiting for him. So anything related to Jesus, his followers and the faith created by them is pagan to us.

Just a brief clarification

NP: Benedictum - 'Steel Rain'

 

[Thoth-Amon]

As I explained before to Jewish faith Satan is just a subordinate of God (read Job on the Old Testament). Christianism which is a totally different faith from Jewish created the Devil and paired it with Satan, the serpent, the beast, etc.

I'm Jewish and I dislike the use of Judeo-Christian as a couple, we don't believe in Jesus, he IS NOT the Christ (Messiah in Greek) we are still awaiting for him. So anything related to Jesus, his followers and the faith created by them is pagan to us.

Just a brief clarification

NP: Benedictum - 'Steel Rain'

actually the identification of satan with the devil was something that occured before the christian era... you can see it in intertestimental books like the Wisdom of Solomon. the christians simply adopted this way of thinking from the jews who were all readly thinking this way.

 

[Hawk]

Thanks for all the info Thoth-Amon. Thats really interesting.

 

[desert_demon]

These folks are nothing more than kooks that are looking to score points with a devil that doesn't exist. And of course, they are causing destruction of someone else's property, whatever that property may be, which can cause you to be arrested, which certainly does not lead one to an indulgent, productive lifestyle. So make no mistake about it, if you're setting fire to churches, you are certainly an asshole, but you're no Satanist.”

Black metalers = "kooks"
Black metalers who set churches on fire = "assholes"

I couldn't agree more.

 

[Thoth-Amon]

Thanks for all the info Thoth-Amon. Thats really interesting.

no problemo

 

[rokk]

Satan is not a deity in Judeo-Christian thought. Satan is a fallen angel. They use Satan (aside from the fact that it is an excellent gimmick) because he is the antithesis of the Judeo-Christian God. From the Satanist point of view in our society the Judeo-Christian God and his religion(s) represent the epitome of herd conformity and forced morality, therefore to show their opposition not only to Christianity per se but also to the qualities embodied in this religion (i.e. faith before reason, abstinence instead of indulgence, herd conformity instead of individualism, etc.) they use the symbol of the antagonist of the Christian faith.

Definition of the word Deity (according to Wikipedia)is : A deity is a postulated preternatural or supernatural being, who is always of significant power, worshipped, thought holy, divine, or sacred, held in high regard, or respected by human beings. They are usually immortal. They are commonly assumed to have personalities and to possess consciousness, intellects, desires, and emotions similar to those of humans.

Would the commonly accepted idea of "Satan" fit the above description of a Deity?

Although many may not categorize Satan as "holy, divine, or sacred.", a person who may worship Satan (as a matter of their personal choice) may in fact consider him to be.

 

[Wyvern]

you can see it in intertestimental books like the Wisdom of Solomon. the christians simply adopted this way of thinking from the jews who were all readly thinking this way.

Those are non-canonical books (actually never heard of it) I was never teached about the devil or Satan in any form and I attended a religious school. Award and punishment came strictly from God, when characters of the bible divert from God's praising they were punished, plain and simple (Sodom and Gomorrha, Saul, many other kings). Again Satan appears only in the book of Job (as far as I recall) as a pawn of God.

Christians may have started as a Hebrew sect but they diverted rapidly creating Jesus, the Trinity, Satan, the Holy Virgin , etc.

I strongly recommend you to read Dr. Paul Carus "The History of The Devil And The Idea Of Evil" pp.65-73, related about the Hebrews and the subject.

I quote a few passages:

In all the older books of Hebrew literature, especially in the Pentateuch, Satan is not mentioned at all. All acts of punishment, revenge and temptation are performed by Yahveh himself, or by his angel at his direct command.

The prophet Zechariah speaks of Satan as an angel whose office it is to accuse and to demand the punishment of the wicked.

It is noteworthy that Satna, in the canonical books of the Old testament, is and adversary of man, but not God; he is a subject of God and God's faithful servant.

Very different from poor old Nick in Christian faith.

 

[Thoth-Amon]

Definition of the word Deity (according to Wikipedia)is : A deity is a postulated preternatural or supernatural being, who is always of significant power, worshipped, thought holy, divine, or sacred, held in high regard, or respected by human beings. They are usually immortal. They are commonly assumed to have personalities and to possess consciousness, intellects, desires, and emotions similar to those of humans.

Would the commonly accepted idea of "Satan" fit the above description of a Deity?

Although many may not categorize Satan as "holy, divine, or sacred.", a person who may worship Satan (as a matter of their personal choice) may in fact consider him to be.

Deity is from the latin Dei which means GOD. Thus a Deity is a God. Satan is not viewed as a God in Judeo-Christian theology, he is a created being of great power, an angel who has rebelled against God.

 

[Thoth-Amon]

Those are non-canonical books (actually never heard of it) I was never teached about the devil or Satan in any form and I attended a religious school. Award and punishment came strictly from God, when characters of the bible divert from God's praising they were punished, plain and simple (Sodom and Gomorrha, Saul, many other kings). Again Satan appears only in the book of Job (as far as I recall) as a pawn of God.

Christians may have started as a Hebrew sect but they diverted rapidly creating Jesus, the Trinity, Satan, the Holy Virgin , etc.

I strongly recommend you to read Dr. Paul Carus "The History of The Devil And The Idea Of Evil" pp.65-73, related about the Hebrews and the subject.

I quote a few passages:

In all the older books of Hebrew literature, especially in the Pentateuch, Satan is not mentioned at all. All acts of punishment, revenge and temptation are performed by Yahveh himself, or by his angel at his direct command.

The prophet Zechariah speaks of Satan as an angel whose office it is to accuse and to demand the punishment of the wicked.

It is noteworthy that Satna, in the canonical books of the Old testament, is and adversary of man, but not God; he is a subject of God and God's faithful servant.

Very different from poor old Nick in Christian faith.

you misunderstand me friend.
i'm not saying that jews today make this identification nor am i saying that the hebrew bible makes this identification... Satan is only mentioned in Job, Zechariah and Chronicles in the Hebrew Bible and the roles he is pictured in there do not make any kind of positive identification as the devil. The Wisdom of Solomon was written in the 1st or 2nd century BC by well Jews and it expresses the idea that Satan is the devil and he tempted Adam and Eve. This shows that Jews were thinking this before Christianity was even around. Christians simply adopted the interpretations that some of the Jews had regarding Satan and incorporated it into their religion. The Wisdom of Solomon BTW is included in Catholic and Orthodox bibles as part of their Old Testament.

 

[Wyvern]

The Wisdom of Solomon was written in the 1st or 2nd century BC by well Jews and it expresses the idea that Satan is the devil and he tempted Adam and Eve. This shows that Jews were thinking this before Christianity was even around. Christians simply adopted the interpretations that some of the Jews had regarding Satan and incorporated it into their religion.

Since I have no more info on this I will take your word on the subject. I'm get a little picky when the phrase Judeo-Christian is used. Christianity persecuted Jews for centuries, so I'm not particularly fond to be put in the same basket.

The Wisdom of Solomon BTW is included in Catholic and Orthodox bibles as part of their Old Testament.

Why it doesn't surprise me? Apocrypha rampages in Catholic bibles.

Who said this forum does not bring intelligent discussion?

NP: Death Angel - 'Sonic Breakdown'