is a re amp box needed?

topsoul182

Member
Dec 18, 2009
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okay here is my signal chain

guitar > Art mp preamp > presonus firestudio

then to reamp its just the output of the firestudio into the amp

do i need a re amp box?
 
I would like to know as well considering I always just go out of my MOTU 828 mk3 into the amp. I've never had an issue with that method. Someone let us know the advantages if any.
 
WTF again? Did you even REMOTELY try to find one of the countless threads about this? One of those has to be on the first page of the equipment subsection (where this question would have been appropriate anyway)

Look here
 
This topic was something I was thinking about last night. IMO I think that the companies making reamp boxes and eve DI boxes are completely scamming the electrical illiterate musicians for their money, and the use of a reamp box is precisely only that. I will probably write a Impedance tutorial/lecture to shut up all the conceptions of how all this stuff works, but simply put impedance matching does not mean that you are matching the load to the output impedance that would actually be a mismatch. The input impedance of the next stage should always be at least ten times greater to that of the previous stage output and one hundred times greater in a precision circuit. Impudence matching is only a practice to load the stage high enough to prevent a loading effect.

Simply explained, for a guitar amp, a reamp box should not be needed. The internal output impedance of an audio interface should be pretty small so the high impedance in will load the stage in a way that it operates how it was designed (without a load). The only thing that a reamp box is doing, its not matching impedance, its mirroring the impedance by changing the voltage to current (decreasing voltage, increasing current). However if you are reamping a tube amp, which is a voltage controlled amplifier, a reamp box is doing nothing more than attenuating the input volume to that "SIMILAR" to pickup, but since you don't know the actual output of your pickup, it doesn't really matter. All your doing is dropping over $100 for a fixed attenuation device which you could have easily done in your DAW. Same goes for your DI box, it is increasing voltage, decreasing current and mirroring the impedance, you aren't matching shit.

The reason that reamping without a Reamp box is that reamping still needs a buffer (high impedance in, low impedance out) so that the next stage can be driven correctly. The buffer acts as a current amplifier, giving the voltage the kinetic energy it needs to drive into the next stage. And this is only needed because the output buffer on most interfaces are not strong enough for this function. The opposite goes for DI, since the impedance of the pickup is not at least 10 times less than the input of an interface (though from my experience most interface inputs are high enough to not have a problem (as long as it is around 100K or higher), a buffer stage that acts as an unity gain amplifier with a lowered output impedance prevents the loading effect.

The big concern is the DI though since you have a high impedance into a low (and all that you need is a small signal step up transformer (maybe about $30-50 max)), however in a reamp situation you are going low to high, which is good, you just need that current gain. And a simple $5 transistor project could get you the same place as a more expensive reamp box if you even need it as it depends on your interface.
 
This topic was something I was thinking about last night. IMO I think that the companies making reamp boxes and eve DI boxes are completely scamming the electrical illiterate musicians for their money, and the use of a reamp box is precisely only that. I will probably write a Impedance tutorial/lecture to shut up all the conceptions of how all this stuff works, but simply put impedance matching does not mean that you are matching the load to the output impedance that would actually be a mismatch. The input impedance of the next stage should always be at least ten times greater to that of the previous stage output and one hundred times greater in a precision circuit. Impudence matching is only a practice to load the stage high enough to prevent a loading effect.

Simply explained, for a guitar amp, a reamp box should not be needed. The internal output impedance of an audio interface should be pretty small so the high impedance in will load the stage in a way that it operates how it was designed (without a load). The only thing that a reamp box is doing, its not matching impedance, its mirroring the impedance by changing the voltage to current (decreasing voltage, increasing current). However if you are reamping a tube amp, which is a voltage controlled amplifier, a reamp box is doing nothing more than attenuating the input volume to that "SIMILAR" to pickup, but since you don't know the actual output of your pickup, it doesn't really matter. All your doing is dropping over $100 for a fixed attenuation device which you could have easily done in your DAW. Same goes for your DI box, it is increasing voltage, decreasing current and mirroring the impedance, you aren't matching shit.

The reason that reamping without a Reamp box is that reamping still needs a buffer (high impedance in, low impedance out) so that the next stage can be driven correctly. The buffer acts as a current amplifier, giving the voltage the kinetic energy it needs to drive into the next stage. And this is only needed because the output buffer on most interfaces are not strong enough for this function. The opposite goes for DI, since the impedance of the pickup is not at least 10 times less than the input of an interface (though from my experience most interface inputs are high enough to not have a problem (as long as it is around 100K or higher), a buffer stage that acts as an unity gain amplifier with a lowered output impedance prevents the loading effect.

The big concern is the DI though since you have a high impedance into a low (and all that you need is a small signal step up transformer (maybe about $30-50 max)), however in a reamp situation you are going low to high, which is good, you just need that current gain. And a simple $5 transistor project could get you the same place as a more expensive reamp box if you even need it as it depends on your interface.

You sir just blew my mind. Thanks for the info.
 
For those interested. Easy to build your own.
DIY reamp box

RGCReampFinal2.jpg
 
how do you do that in your daw?

channel volume on the dry guitars.

You sir just blew my mind. Thanks for the info.

cheers. To simply sum it up, and output impedance of one stage (device) needs to go into a higher impedance stage. Low to high.

Low to high - matched
High to low - mismatched

*in a matched circuit, the high impedance needs to be AT LEAST 10 times greater.
 
I sold my radial reamp box because I got just as good of results going direct from my interface outputs to the amp. Keep in mind I don't do it much but still....

I felt like it was a big waste of money. It seemed like a glorified knob to adjust the level but I can do that in Reaper as well.

My two cents for what their worth. I would at least add for anyone looking to buy a reamp box:

Try your interface outputs first and see what happens. If not satisfied buy a reamp box. If you don't get better results just return it or sell it like me.
 
I sold my radial reamp box because I got just as good of results going direct from my interface outputs to the amp. Keep in mind I don't do it much but still....

I felt like it was a big waste of money. It seemed like a glorified knob to adjust the level but I can do that in Reaper as well.

exactly what I was saying. Thats really all they are, glorified knobs, since most interfaces generally work without one.
 
I'd love for someone to do a clip comparison of interface output vs. reamp box.

Just a thought though, how do you guys that go straight from the interface get around the whole balanced cable issue? Are you guys just plugging in a standard guitar cable to it? I would think that would cause some issues right there.

Also, I don't know if I'm a fan of pulling down the level in the DAW to get it into the right range for the amp, I'm very cautious of chomping bits like that, especially something that is essentially going to be sent back through a mic and have to go through another round of AD/DA conversion.
 
pulling the volume down won't degrade the signal like an A/D conversion goes, as the output voltage from a D/A conversion will be the same, the allocation of output voltages will be transposed across the matrix so to speak, eventually at extreme attenuations will the bits begin to be removed, but we are talking extreme. Besides as I have done reamping I have found that even at 0db, the DAW doesn't have enough voltage to drive the amp, so I don't think you would need to worry about attenuating the signal, even though line level is massively higher in voltage than a guitar pickups output, I think its a current to voltage relationship that is important to keep. Since the vacuum tube is a voltage controlled device, you should have within the ballpark of the voltage needed to drive the amp, it might just be a matter of recalibrating your pre gain controls (maybe more or less to compensate for the line outs difference in volume compared to a real pup.

the balanced issue is the one thing that I have had a problem with, but the case should be that the ground is defeated to the cold terminal going to the amp. Of course that would increase output impedance of the interface but only by an attenuation of 14db (pro audio/commercial audio differences). In some cases the ground may have to be completely lifted and defeated, if the source is providing noise from a ground loop, really depends on the situation. If you were to record without a reamp box, you should either have a device that functions as a ground lift or build two separate cables (one with a common ground connected to the cold terminal and one with the ground defeated).
 
I just wanted to make a few corrections :

"impedance matching does not mean that you are matching the load to the output impedance"

Actually it does, that is the definition of impedance matching. The long winded definition of impedance matching to an electronic engineer ( such as myself !! ) is that the load impedance is equal to the complex conjugate of the source impedance. If there is no reactive component to the source/load impedance then the load impedance will equal the source impedance. The correct term you were searching for was "impedance bridging".

"The only thing that a reamp box is doing, its not matching impedance, its mirroring the impedance by changing the voltage to current (decreasing voltage, increasing current)."

No it isn't. The input current flowing into the guitar amp is determined by ohms law just like every electronic circuit.

"a reamp box is doing nothing more than attenuating the input volume to that "SIMILAR" to pickup, but since you don't know the actual output of your pickup, it doesn't really matter."

Actually it does really matter because the input stage of a guitar amplifier was designed for the signal level of a typical pickup.

"The buffer acts as a current amplifier, giving the voltage the kinetic energy it needs to drive into the next stage."

No, a buffer acts as a driver than can source high output currents. A current amplifier is a device that receives a current at the input and applies gain to it to produce an output current. In addition, the term kinetic energy is a term from kinematics not electronic engineering. One Volt is a measure of electrical potential measured in Joules per coulomb while kinetic energy is related to the mass and velocity of a moving body.

"pulling the volume down won't degrade the signal like an A/D conversion goes, as the output voltage from a D/A conversion will be the same, the allocation of output voltages will be transposed across the matrix so to speak,"

Yes it will. If you reduce the range of the digital codes going into a DAC then you reduce your effective resolution. What is this matrix that you speak of because it has nothing to do with how a Delta-sigma DAC operates.

"even though line level is massively higher in voltage than a guitar pickups output, I think its a current to voltage relationship that is important to keep."

The relationship between voltage and current at the input stage of the amp is determined by ohms law so if the amp sees a voltage higher than a pickup then the current will be higher than a pickup.

Summary
--------
You should use a reamp box instead of using the line out because this will ensure that the input stage of the amp is
receiving the level that amp designers intended. If you don't use a reamp box then it may still work on YOUR amp but
it will not work properly with ANY amp in general.
 
You know, reamp boxes exist for a reason.

DI boxes too. does everybody use them, no. :)

there is no need for a reamp box if you don't bother the impedance/output relation matching your amps input. it'll work without that is for sure, but does it sound right? if so, you're lucky because your interface is either matching the impedance/output voltage by default or is pretty close to do so. if not, go to the store get a reamp box.

same goes for Di's