Is exporting a mix with the Master Fader not a ZERO WRONG ?

[A Toolish Circle]

Hi guys

always wanted to ask this question

is it essentially important that when u export a mix that the master fader must be on 0db ???


usually when i mix it goes to about +6 -8 db too loud at the end and i just lower the master fader to -6db and export so that the mix doenst' clip


is this a bad thing ?


Regards
Roland

 

[RootBoundApollo]

you should try to get it as close as possible without using the master then tweak it to level out big inconsistensies or to slightly raise or lower the overall level. This is a rule of thumb. I hate rules of thumb. As long as it sounds good and isn't clipping, go wild.

 

[Black neon bob]

I try to keep the fader as close to zero as possible... i try to have the volume of the instruments as input at a certain volume as well, but i do wonder if this is mandatory though... i mean, if it sounds right, it sounds right no?

I have done a mix of a band, where i had to put the master fader down quite a bit.. because the input was pretty loud, but it ended up just fine..

 

[Kazrog]

I always have the fader at zero. Anything less would be uncivilized.

Not something I've ever questioned or had a desire to do differently - I'm sure that it's not bad as long as you have healthy levels - but ultimately the more you pull a fader down, the less resolution you're using. I sometimes pull my master down when tracking a lead so I can hear myself better, and occasionally I've accidentally run off reference mixes like this and they sound awful, even if I have a lot of limiting.

 

[smy1]

but ultimately the more you pull a fader down, the less resolution you're using.

According to Bob Katz this is only true with 16bit and not with 24bit audio. I read his book a couple of times but didn't understand most of it ... ... what I understood though was that when working in 24bit mode the amount of loss from using lower levels is negligible and he recommends going quite low to preserve transients.

 

[kev]

I always keep it at zero, but what the hell do i know

 

[Kazrog]

According to Bob Katz this is only true with 16bit and not with 24bit audio. I read his book a couple of times but didn't understant most of it ... ... what I understood though was that when working in 24bit mode the amount of loss from using lower levels is negligible and he recommends going quite low to preserve transients.

Interesting. I have that book too and I remember reading that. Still - paranoia...

 

[A Toolish Circle]

^ thanks for all the answers guys

smy1 !!!! oh man i'm getting worried now cos i use 16bit

i've asked andy and he's kindly replied that if u can't hear distortion it isn't a problem but andy works in 24bit but i work in 16bit so smy1 has a point

uh oh.....looks like i have to do some reexporting


do u guys reckon if i just bus all the mixes to ONE group channel and lower that instead and bring up the master fader will that work nicely ???

 

[Ben Johnson]

16 bit is fine, but 24 will get you all the ladiez.:Smug:

 

[Kazrog]

ATC - why not just work in 24 bit? Surely your setup should be able to handle 24 bit / 44.1 khz files right?

Your group channel idea isn't really achieving anything because all a master fader is, at the end of the day, is a channel with a different name.

 

[A Toolish Circle]

^ hahaah yea i knew someone was gonna ask me about that

This is my last project in 16bit as i've been working on an OK comp ( 3.2ghz P4 /1Gb ram) and Tascam soundcards which don't have the best A/D converters and pretty crappy preamps

My projects usually hit about 60 - 70 tracks and i use plugins on just about every track plus super CPU intensive ones like C4 and Verbs and SSL ( use about 5 C4 and 20% of cpu power gets chomped up ) plus i never use DAW eq , only RenEQ/SSL/TC eq

on my 16bit projects , after i finish mixing,my cpu power is usually used up to about 70 - 80% so yea i'm sweating most of the time lol !

If i ran my project in 24bit i 'll only usually be able to use like 1/2 the plugs i usually do and i've had a few instances in which my CPU overloads too quickly and crashes my comp

so far 16bit has been the most stable on my comp, and none of my customers have noticed any differences or complained to me ( only been in proper business Jan 2006 ) plus i don't charge alot

It's only us Audiophiles/ engineeers that will pick out the slight differences

But yea , i'm buying a new( really powerful) computer + possible DSP card next month that will let me work on big projects in 24bit ( and shopping for a swanking audio interface at the moment. i really wanna go MOTU , but because i need to learn Pro Tools i'm probably having to go M-audio .....


Cheers about the group channel thing , i'm just gonna have link all my channels and pull down all the faders at one go !

Regards
Roland

 

[A Toolish Circle]

oh , thanks for all the inputs and suggestions btw guys !!!

and i think Ben nailed it on the spot in regards of 16bit and 24bit

i defintely wanna get the ladieezzzz

LOL !

 

[axeman720]

I always keep the master at zero. If the mix is to loud through the master i group all the tracks and bring them down. Or if i'm mixing on the ssl i use the VCA's to bring the mix down IF i have to. But if the mix is gain staged correctly in the first place, none of that should happen.

That being said your levels through the stereo buss are CRITICAL. For instance in pro tools, i notice that there is most certainly a sweet spot on the stereo buss. I try not to have anything above -3 in the stereo buss on an unamstered mix and that may be pushing it sometimes. I firmly believe that if the stereo buss in pro tools sounds like utter shit when pushed to hard. The mix gets cloudy and loses definition. When im mixing i'm extremely conscious of the gain staging of my mix. For instance when i start a mix i dont usually bring a fader above -5db and that sometimes may be a little high in the beginning. This goes for console and pro tools mixes. If start with your faders at a reasonable level (not cranked up to zero) then you have more headroom for boosting, AND your mix is less likely to start getting jumbled.

I also never recommend bouncing anything to disc in any program. Bouncing your tracks in real time via bussing to a stereo track in the session sounds much better to me. I believe this is absolutely critical in pro tools LE. In fact i think they should rename the bounce to disc feature "mix destroyer" because it does just that. Im not sure how or why the internal summing is so much better via bussing than bounce to disc, but believe me you'll hear a HUGE difference.

Hope that helps.

 

[STINNETT]

24 bit has more dynamic range, so you can get by with using lower levels initially without the noise floor being a problem as quickly as it would be at 16 bit.

This little tidbit doesn't really apply with what you're asking though.

You wouldn't want to turn the level down and work with a quieter file if you didn't have to, but if you're just turning the level down to keep from clipping that's a different story alltogether. Your audio is still approaching 0dbfs so you are using your entire dynamic range.

Now whether or not attenuating the master fader has any impact on the sound is subjective. In a DAW usually not I would think. Any perceived issues are going to be more about what your actual levels are rather than your fader position. Also, the accuracy with which most DAW's calculate (usually 32 bit floating point) means fader positions and gain staging don't mean as much in the virtual world.

For instance, you can turn up a single track until it is clipping like mad, but route it through a bus and attenuate it there and the resultant audio will sound the same as the original track before you cranked it up. That's why you can route 50 tracks that are clipping like crazy through the 2 bus at unity gain, but if you just turn down the master fader it won't really sound any different than if you turned down all 50 tracks. There is probably a point after which it would make a difference, but I'm not sure what it would take to reach it. By that rationalle, it makes sense to be mindful of gain staging in a DAW just to be on the safe side, but ultimately it is all up to what you can hear and if it makes any difference to you personally.

Beyond all of this, it's just a matter of your prefered working style. I like to turn all my tracks down quite a bit to start a mix so I have plenty of headroom. This means that sometimes I'm turning up the master fader to get my level where I want it. Usually not past zero, but that's just what I'm used to doing. I don't think it would make any noticable difference if I worked the opposite way.

 

[Gnash]

I also never recommend bouncing anything to disc in any program. Bouncing your tracks in real time via bussing to a stereo track in the session sounds much better to me. I believe this is absolutely critical in pro tools LE. In fact i think they should rename the bounce to disc feature "mix destroyer" because it does just that. Im not sure how or why the internal summing is so much better via bussing than bounce to disc, but believe me you'll hear a HUGE difference.

Hope that helps.

Axeman, When I "mixdown" to a wave file, I have to turn up the master to beyond clipping (+6!), to get a "mix/master". This is a final mixdown of an entire mix to wav. file. The transfer from 24 bit to 16bit sucks the life out of the transfer. You obviously send your mixes to a mastering house. When you say "realtime", do you mean playing the mix, and recording to another device, such as a "Masterlink?" I think I've been destroying my mixes!
Thanx!

 

[STINNETT]

Axeman, When I "mixdown" to a wave file, I have to turn up the master to beyond clipping (+6!), to get a "mix/master". This is a final mixdown of an entire mix to wav. file. The transfer from 24 bit to 16bit sucks the life out of the transfer. You obviously send your mixes to a mastering house. When you say "realtime", do you mean playing the mix, and recording to another device, such as a "Masterlink?" I think I've been destroying my mixes!
Thanx!

Are you saying that you have your level in the "red" by 6 db or that you just have your master fader at +6?

 

[Loren Littlejohn]

Yep another one for master fader on 0.

 

[Gnash]

Are you saying that you have your level in the "red" by 6 db or that you just have your master fader at +6?

Yeah, if I leave the master at 0, the audio is real fuckin quiet after transfer. If I boost the fuck out of it (Master fader at +6 db) (and I've done it this way a 100 times! ), it will sound "normal", or "at the prefered, bitchinest level" for the cd" Pretty fucked up, I know. Maybe this is my wake up call to try something different. Sounds like I'm the only one doing this. I'm switching from 24/96 to 24/44.1 on my next project, so maybe that will make me 0db normal!

 

[nuclearass]

I also never recommend bouncing anything to disc in any program. Bouncing your tracks in real time via bussing to a stereo track in the session sounds much better to me. I believe this is absolutely critical in pro tools LE. In fact i think they should rename the bounce to disc feature "mix destroyer" because it does just that. Im not sure how or why the internal summing is so much better via bussing than bounce to disc, but believe me you'll hear a HUGE difference.

I've also been reading about this a lot from Gearslutz and since I started using pt le as my only DAW program, I've been thinking about doing a comparison... after reading axemans post , I finally decided to do the test, since the stuff that he's been engineering sounds really killer . Some people say this "pt bounce" thing is a myth and some say there is a difference. The material i'm working on is propably not the best kind for doing this kind of "delicate" test (old school hardcore punk :-D), but i still did a quick test and my first impression was that there is no difference (i was only able to listen to the tracks with AKG k271 headphones).

1 version was using bounce to disk (24bit 44.1khz, convert after bounce) and the other one was recorded to a stereo track through a buss. There was no master fader in both cases. Then I imported the tracks to a new project and inserted "trim" plugin on both tracks and flipped the phase on the other one. They seemed to cancel each other out perfectly. I heard nothing, and the master fader was showing nothing. Then I inserted the roger nichols inspector to the master fader channel and it showed that something was going on... After this I inserted a couple of trim plugins before inspector and raised the output by 36 db. At this point there was clearly something going on... mainly below 150hz , but when the drummer was hitting his cymbals harder, there was clearly some action in the highs too (www.mindworks.fi/anttim/ptbounce_vs_recorded.png)... When listening to the difference loud I could clearly notice the drumbeats, so the main difference was probably in the transients... I also made another version of the recorded file to see if there were differences between between versions which were made with the same method and there were some differences again... but only in the 100hz and below area (www.mindworks.fi/anttim/recorded1_vs_recorded2.png ). Nothing "visible" above that.

However, this was just a quick test and something else might have caused this difference... what can it be? I know that the effects (especially compressors) might not behave 100% identically every time, so that is clearly causing differences too.

 

[STINNETT]

Yeah, if I leave the master at 0, the audio is real fuckin quiet after transfer. If I boost the fuck out of it (Master fader at +6 db) (and I've done it this way a 100 times! ), it will sound "normal", or "at the prefered, bitchinest level" for the cd" Pretty fucked up, I know. Maybe this is my wake up call to try something different. Sounds like I'm the only one doing this. I'm switching from 24/96 to 24/44.1 on my next project, so maybe that will make me 0db normal!

There's nothing fucked up about that at all. The level is what matters, not the fader position. Don't worry about it!
This is what the advantage of 24 bit is in essence, you can record your tracks at a lower level and still turn up the faders to get the volume where you want it without worrying about noise, etc.