I Mix too Hot, is this a viable solution?

[Mikaël-ange]

Best advice I can give is, learn how gear you use work.
You mentionned PT but witch version HD TDM (48bits fixed point),or HD native and native (32bits floating point)?
Both didn't work the same way

Others best advice is calibrate your system from mic preamp to monitor

My system is calibrate for get 0db VU = -18dbfs

Hope that help

 

[LeSedna]

Dudes, I wanna try FreeG for its supposedly acurate metering, but the sonalksys website wants me to login to download their manager... but I can't see where you register, am I being retarded ?

 

[Chris Lucas]

Best advice I can give is, learn how gear you use work.
You mentionned PT but witch version HD TDM (48bits fixed point),or HD native and native (32bits floating point)?
Both didn't work the same way

Others best advice is calibrate your system from mic preamp to monitor

My system is calibrate for get 0db VU = -18dbfs

Hope that help

I'm on just regular native pt9, so 32bit I believe.

 

[Audiosprite]

Dudes, I wanna try FreeG for its supposedly acurate metering, but the sonalksys website wants me to login to download their manager... but I can't see where you register, am I being retarded ?

they're the same input field

 

[LeSedna]

they're the same input field

Hum, it only says "try again ? forgot password" etc

 

[Audiosprite]

hm? ok, go here: http://www.sonalksis.com/software.htm

then enter your info under "Downloading Demos" and click "Access Demos."

 

[LeSedna]

I found an old installer on gearslutz but still, I didn't find how to register on sonalksis

EDIT : oh, you have to go to demo ? But this is supposed free so I didn't go to the demo part. I think it's not clear enough. Anyway i've managed to make it work thanks

 

[TheWinterSnow]

...I always have to play the devils advocate when this topic comes up, but...the one and only big issue with tracking too hot is that you will have to pull down the channel faders too much and as they are logarithmic, if you are down at the bottom, the sensitivity to volume changes get all sorts of fucked up. The prefect tracking volume's criteria is simple enough. Track hot enough so you NEVER have to boost (go beyond unity gain), but track cold enough so you get best control over of the faders. Generally I track hot enough where the more constant volume instruments sit about -12db below unity and the quick transients usually sit anywhere from -6db to unity.

Track too hot, its harder to control volume
Track too cold, noise

 

[Brett - K A L I S I A]

I tend to clip my channels when mixing as well (on the snare, and occasionally here and there) but as said, it's not supposed to make any difference... Surely doesn't on percussive elements like a snare...

 

[drew_drummer]

the one and only big issue with tracking too hot is that you will have to pull down the channel faders too much

Not true as far as I know. There is another issue with tracking too hot - you're pushing your preamps and A/D converters past their point of tolerance. You're saturating the components. So as well as eating up your headroom, you're getting a slightly more brittle sound. On a single track, it's a minute difference. But it's like distortion... it adds up. So once you've recorded 24 tracks all extremely hot, no matter how loud your DAW faders are... it's still going to sound slightly brittle and excessively bright.

At least I *think* that's part of the theory behind tracking at -18DBfs.

I never used to track that low. I used to fall foul of the 'filling up my bits' mentality. But in the past year or so I've been bringing it down to peaking at about -12DBfs, and I'm still bringing it down too.

Ultimately you need to pay attention to the timbre of the recording, not the volume - in the digital realm, volume can be compensated for. A nasty saturated tone or digital clipping cannot.

 

[Brett - K A L I S I A]

Ok so I have confirmed this. Keep in mind the topic is about MIXING too hot, not TRACKING too hot, another whole issue.

Using Pro Tools 9 on a Mac (not HD).
- Took a guitar track, recorded pretty hot (24 bit wav).
- Put it on a track, and duplicated it twice. Created 3 Auxiliaries, one for each track.
- 1st Audio track volume at 0db, 2nd at +12, 3rd at -12 (obviously, 2nd one is clipping like crazy, starts in the RED and stays there the whole time)
- 1st Aux volume at 0db, 2nd at -12, 3rd at +12 (so when played all tracks have the exact same volume)
- Muted all audio tracks
- Reversed the polarity of the first audio track
- Un-muted 2nd track: total silence. Muted it again.
- Un-muted 3rd track: total silence. Muted it again.
- Inverted the polarity of the second audio track, muted the first one and played the 2nd and 3rd together: total silence.

Demonstration is done, they are ALL THE SAME. Thank you, good bye

 

[drew_drummer]

Ok so I have confirmed this. Keep in mind the topic is about MIXING too hot, not TRACKING too hot, another whole issue.

Whilst I accept that, I do think the two are inextricably linked and that we should discuss both aspects. Because as I said... if you track too hot, any volume adjustments later on when you mix wont do squat for the tone, and it's important people understand that.

 

[LeSedna]

Ok so I have confirmed this. Keep in mind the topic is about MIXING too hot, not TRACKING too hot, another whole issue.

Using Pro Tools 9 on a Mac (not HD).
- Took a guitar track, recorded pretty hot (24 bit wav).
- Put it on a track, and duplicated it twice. Created 3 Auxiliaries, one for each track.
- 1st Audio track volume at 0db, 2nd at +12, 3rd at -12 (obviously, 2nd one is clipping like crazy, starts in the RED and stays there the whole time)
- 1st Aux volume at 0db, 2nd at -12, 3rd at +12 (so when played all tracks have the exact same volume)
- Muted all audio tracks
- Reversed the polarity of the first audio track
- Un-muted 2nd track: total silence. Muted it again.
- Un-muted 3rd track: total silence. Muted it again.
- Inverted the polarity of the second audio track, muted the first one and played the 2nd and 3rd together: total silence.

Demonstration is done, they are ALL THE SAME. Thank you, good bye

Did you print the auxes ? Because i guess it plays the clipping one but has in memory its original signal the while time, no ? If you print them, if its clipping like hell like you said, there is obviously information destroyed.

Oh i got it, youre just talking about mixing.

I do start my mixes at -18 for convenience cause therefore i dont have to manage the overall volume on the masterbuss, it only hits 0 on snare hits on denses mixes and a few clipping instances solves this.

From what i got, many things stay calibrated at -18dbfs / 0vu, and they usually are hardware or emulations. If you dont use any of these, its useless technically. I remember people saying this made a difference by ear cause using the fader is a destructive action since it adds another signal treatment in the chain blabla

 

[Mikaël-ange]

Copy and past from gearslutz:

There's several reasons to record less hot:

1 - most standalone analogue preamps are designed to work at a nominal operating level of 0VU - in the digital world, the most common lineup is 0VU = -18dBFs. This might sound confusing - so all you need to remember is that if you're recording close to 0dBFs (ie clipping) you're running your preamp 15dB or more hotter than it's normal operating range is. Which might sound cool for the right source, but might also mean that it's distorting more, and so it's a less clean sound.

2 - if you record ALL your signals super hot, you'll then need to turn them down (using a trim plugin) to mix them, or you'll clip your mix buss (digital or analogue, ITB or OTB).

3 - with these super hot tracks, as soon as you put an EQ over it or similar, you could end up clipping the plugin itself, because the original audio is close to full scale. Now - in the floating point world, this might not matter, but many plugins will clip internally, and your audio might be changed for the worse.

4 - recording close to 0 on the way in means you run the risk of either clipping your converters, or saturating the analogue stages. Either will make the original recording less clean, and won't be salvageable later on.

All in all - record less hot and all your issues go away.

 

[jeid]

I get the recording less hot thing, but what sort of peaks are your levels hitting during mixing?

 

[mjlaudio]

I admit that i mix things too hot.....it can really hurt getting loudness in the mastering phase. To fix this....I have resorted to tracking with faders at zero. I usually track on a console, but this applies in protools as well.....when I record my drums I make them sound good all faders at zero no eq and i record with eq compression all that printing......mix buss will not be clipping. Then I add samples, then I add guitars, bass and vox and finally overdubs. I use the preamp gain to place the elements in the mix....or if i am tracking with outboard, compressor makeup gain. If I accomplish my goal the song sounds roughly mixed all faders at zero. A side benefit to this is that alot of older gear is designed to work optimally at analog zero not fs digital zero....i find things sound less pushed and I can do then extra pushing at the mix stage but at least i have the control.

The problem with clipping is that if you are clipping at the mix stage then clipping again at mastering you are really taking back the punch.

 

[drew_drummer]

I get the recording less hot thing, but what sort of peaks are your levels hitting during mixing?

I've begun to have Cytomic The Glue on my master bus, for some light bus compression. My master I try to get hitting at about -6db.

The rest is going to be very dependent on the material and how you want it to sound. I'm trying to get away from this habit of making the kick drum too loud. Something I think I've picked up from the Sneap forum, but I don't actually like it most of the time. I want the kick to sit with everything nicely and not overpower.

 

[Chris Lucas]

I appreciate all the discussion in here, it's been incredibly informative. Also thanks Kalista for that test.

Like I said, I don't track too hot, just mix. But it seems like mixing too hot just makes things more of a pain than not doing it, but there's no ultimate downside if I avoid things that obviously are bad.

 

[Lasse Lammert]

Ok so I have confirmed this. Keep in mind the topic is about MIXING too hot, not TRACKING too hot, another whole issue.

Using Pro Tools 9 on a Mac (not HD).
- Took a guitar track, recorded pretty hot (24 bit wav).
- Put it on a track, and duplicated it twice. Created 3 Auxiliaries, one for each track.
- 1st Audio track volume at 0db, 2nd at +12, 3rd at -12 (obviously, 2nd one is clipping like crazy, starts in the RED and stays there the whole time)
- 1st Aux volume at 0db, 2nd at -12, 3rd at +12 (so when played all tracks have the exact same volume)
- Muted all audio tracks
- Reversed the polarity of the first audio track
- Un-muted 2nd track: total silence. Muted it again.
- Un-muted 3rd track: total silence. Muted it again.
- Inverted the polarity of the second audio track, muted the first one and played the 2nd and 3rd together: total silence.

Demonstration is done, they are ALL THE SAME. Thank you, good bye

yeah, it's a DIGITAL audio workstation after all, and those worksations have enough headroom usually, and just because you're raising the fader it doesn't mean it's clipping the waveform
but what happens if you're using plugins or even outboard on the auxes and the maser bus? I guess the ones driven way too hot will sound different than the other ones........and most of us are using compressors and EQs etc in their mixes

as you said, tracking too hot is another thing altogether again...most (especially cheaper) converters don't sound too good too close to 0dBfs (I think Bob Katz has a nice section about that in his book...or was it lavry's paper? dunno....


so summed up: there are no advantages of tracking and mixing hotter...only possible disadvantages


EDIT: dammit, Analgrinder said it already

 

[drew_drummer]

Some plugins are built to withstand numbers outside of -1.0 and 1.0 - other plugins HARD CLIP on input OR output.