I Mix too Hot, is this a viable solution?

[Chris Lucas]

First off I use Pro Tools.
I have a bad (or good?) habit of pushing my tracks individually into the top of their headroom and then basically using faders to keep everything in check.

My individual tracks aren't peaking but my master inevitably always does so I end up mixing with a clipper of some sort on my master from the get go, which from what I've heard isn't smart, (I use an L3 or Slate FG-x or the like).

I noticed I can just turn my master fader down 8 or so db and then I'm never clipping the master fader, but is that actually the same as mixing quieter, or is it just lowering the volume of my squashed signals?

I guess that may not be the best way to describe it but I think you get what I mean.

 

[Empathy]

Listen to the difference. Turning the master fader down to compensate for insanely hot mixing just results in a poor, static mix. You should try mixing quieter, and USE the dynamic range available to you. I never go above -6db on the master fader when mixing, with the master fader always at unity. There's a lot of material to read regarding this, do some searches both on here and on other sites.

 

[Chris Lucas]

It definitely doesn't sound poor and static, which is why I pose this question. I will do some more research though.
Edit: I'm reading there's a 48 bit floating point buffer in PT so that technically unless you're clipping on the 24/16bit output of the master bus you're not clipping. So turning down all the tracks 5b is the EXACT same thing as turning down the master fader 5db.

So if I understand it it's goes like this. Assuming a greater than 24bit floating point value for the internal bussing on pro tools means that each meters on each tracks 0dbfs point is just 0dbfs @24 bits. But there's actually 8 bits of theoretical headroom on top of that, that's why if you take say, a channel strip, and it's output is going over 0db, and then you say, put a limiter on it, it won't clip, even though (THEORETICALLY) it was clipping as it left the channel strip?

Oh and for the record I'm not clipping during tracking obviously that'd be retarded.

 

[nch3966]

if you record too quiet youll end up with annyoing hisssssssssssssssss

 

[Chris Lucas]

I definitely do not track too quiet, I track as hot as I can manage without clipping to make best of my bit depth. And that hiss is just adding far too much gain.

 

[Fr0zen]

i just watched a tutorial on groove 3 on that topic. There it says:" In a 32 bit environement there is absolutely no difference between pulling down the master fader and pulling down the channels".

 

[greyskull]

All kinds of bad.
In the digital realm in 24 bit there is NO NEED to try and record as hot as possible.
This is a hangover from analogue days and the early days of digital recording. Recording towards the upper limits of the DAWS headroom is a sure fire way to make stuff sound shit.

 

[Damage, Inc.]

There is no reason whatsoever to record or mix that hot. Try mixing with your peaks at -6 as a starting point. Any extra volume you may need can be done in mastering.

 

[Lasse Lammert]

just engage the "all" group, lower all the faders and then raise the FX and master faders to unity again.


but still...track less hot would be the best advice

All kinds of bad.
In the digital realm in 24 bit there is NO NEED to try and record as hot as possible.
This is a hangover from analogue days and the early days of digital recording. Recording towards the upper limits of the DAWS headroom is a sure fire way to make stuff sound shit.

this

 

[jeid]

Interested in this.

So if you track at -6, when you start with your processing, where abouts do your peaks lay for individual tracks?

 

[Lasse Lammert]

I'd track far lower than minus6.

usually my tracks are peaking between -14 and -18dB.....then the entire mix peaks around -6

 

[LeSedna]

In the digital realm there is no "need" to track hot. It's just mentally you are thinking you should use your whole range but the benefit is not there. Personnally I track with a minimum of -18dBFS because it's where it's supposed to work the best (internally). But I don't think of it more than that.

Try this : start the mix with the bass around -18dBFS, and don't touch it anymore, mix around it. You should end around -6 dBFS more or less, and your mix will be in better control.

 

[jeid]

I'd track far lower than minus6.

usually my tracks are peaking between -14 and -18dB.....then the entire mix peaks around -6

Cheers for the info Lasse. What about your DI's for re-amping? Are they usually hotter? Or still down at -14/-18?

Much appreciated.

In the digital realm there is no "need" to track hot. It's just mentally you are thinking you should use your whole range but the benefit is not there. Personnally I track with a minimum of -18dBFS because it's where it's supposed to work the best (internally). But I don't think of it more than that.

Try this : start the mix with the bass around -18dBFS, and don't touch it anymore, mix around it. You should end around -6 dBFS more or less, and your mix will be in better control.

All good info, thanks man

 

[greyskull]

also, when you're not blitzing your headroom, your faders will seem more responsive, and you'll appear to have more control over minute changes in volume..
YMMV

 

[kramer1309]

but say for DI's ... I tried tracking at a lower volume, but felt that the sound was weaker than when it was clipping near zero?

 

[Chris Lucas]

But see by the same respects there's also no need NOT to track hot and just run your faders lower, is that not also true?

The other thing I wonder about is like, internal clipping in plugins and if that matters or not in the sense that they have extra theoretical headroom above 0db

 

[Chris Lucas]

but say for DI's ... I tried tracking at a lower volume, but felt that the sound was weaker than when it was clipping near zero?

Well the sound will definitely sound "weaker" in the sense that it is quieter at unity gain, you might have to turn the output up on your reamp box also =/

 

[Charles J]

i track VERY OCD like hitting nothing between -18dB and -12dB.... my meters are specially setup for this so it's green at -18 and turn yellow up until -12 then above that is red....

ASIDE from that, I tend to mix HOT AS FUCK!!! As someone else mentioned, there is no difference I can tell between cranking the fuck out of your channels and turning the master down or doing the opposite.

i think my most used plug is Sonalksis FreeG..... TBH, and this sounds terrible, but during the course of a mix (which FreeG ALWAYS been the first plug on my master) I have to pull down the level like -55dB. Yes, I am pushing the whole mix buss 55dB OVER 0dB.....

I've tried and tried and tried to keep all my levels conservative but I like how my mixes come out MUCH better when I just do my thing.

I am using VCC in all channels and busses/2BUSS so that does help..... plus I can use these FreeG's to hit certain stuff harder or back it off... almost like a trim on every channel but more convenient...

i've mastered hitting VCC on the 2BUSS and where I like to see the needle hitting dB wise... soooo, all it takes is raising or lowering my FreeG... I also put ANOTHER FreeG on the master AFTER VCC going into Duende SSL comp and use that to hit IT a certain way also..... since the MixBuss plug has no trim.

Call me crazy but I've noticed I mix faster and I like how my shit comes out better when I do this.

REMINDER: this only applies to the FADERS themselves... any inserts or anything between the audio event and when all the inserts hit the fader is a different story. it's IMPERATIVE to achieve proper gain staging here as MOST plugs just shit the fuck out when they're hit too hard (depending on the plug... some saturate beautifully...

just me two cents..

 

[kramer1309]

Well the sound will definitely sound "weaker" in the sense that it is quieter at unity gain, you might have to turn the output up on your reamp box also =/

I'm actually working with ampsims, so the output volume is in my hands, but I've read time and time again that tracking DI's should have peaks around -6dB. I would assume that this was what they wanted to convey as the 'ideal' level to hit the amp/ampsim with. But, the time i tried that, it sounded much weaker than having the DI peak at unity gain (yeah, most of the body was under -6 though). Note this is with the output having similar volume.

Thats why I'm confused.. I'm I doing something wrong or are my ears just used to an over-gained sound?

 

[crillemannen]

Use trim as an insert before you start to mix. Set it to -10db and you should be fine. If you start out mixing and realizing later on that the master fader (or auxes) will clip then use trim on all channels as the last insert, and your settings will remain the same but without the clipping