Killer idea on paper, but would it work?

[Brett - K A L I S I A]

I've been thinking about this. Has anyone tried it or seen it before?
Is it even possible and not dangerous for the amp? What do you think?
I don't see why it wouldn't work and I think this is pretty killer actually but I may be overseeing something important.

Cab output could be in stereo (clean on the left, saturated on the right) but that defeats my idea of having both units coming out from the same speakers.

Could also be used in stereo (both units in stereo) by using Y cables (Left FX Return would come from Left Pod and Left FX Send, and Right FX Return would come from Right Pod and Right FX Send). Unless Y cables are not a great idea, in that case a small mixer would do to mix signals.

Of course, Pod (or whatever device used for cleans) would have cab simulation turned off!

 

[Ben Johnson]

 

[alan1990]

I run my guitar to an ab box, one line to the front of the amp and the other to a pod and then to the effects return for a clean tone on my 5150 and it does indeed work

 

[Metaltastic]

I can't imagine why it wouldn't work - but do you have a head with two FX returns?

 

[JeffTD]

I've done it similar... guitar into splitter (not A/B/Y), one side to POD which then went into the FX return. other side went to the TS and then into the input. Hitting the footswitch to turn the effects loop on/off would switch between clean from the POD and dirty from the TS/Amp.


That said, I'm not sure with a stereo loop and trying to run effects in the loop on the dirty side of things. It won't screw anything up if you try it, so I'd give it a shot and see if it worked, cause in theory, yeah, it works, but in practice is always a bit different.

 

[Genius Gone Insane]

I don't see why it wouldn't work, but I also don't see what the point is. Is this for live purposes??

 

[AdamWathan]

There is a MUCH better way of doing something like this. I've never personally run into an amp with a stereo FX loop like that... But here's my rig...

Guitar > Boss GT5 input
Boss GT5 FX Send > 5150 input
5150 FX Send > Boss GT5 FX Return
Boss GT5 Output > 5150 FX Return

This is what's known as the 4 cable method. It will work with any processor that has it's own switchable FX loop. Basically the way it works is that I am placing the 5150's preamp section inside the GT5 effects loop, so by turning on the GT5 FX loop, it turns on the 5150 distortion, and then I switch to a clean patch on my GT5 that has the GT5 effects loop OFF, and it send my clean tone straight to the 5150 FX return. Works BRILLIANTLY.

I got rid of my Pod XT Live purely because it had no FX loop and I couldn't run a setup like this. Look into the GT5, GT6 or GT8 by Boss, they are all capable of this sort of setup. Fractal Audio Axe FX can do it too, as can tons of other processors I'm sure, just not the Pods.

Of course you can use the tube screamer as well, just put it right after the GT5 send and before the amp input.


Green lines are the FX loop section that I switch in and out to activate the 5150's preamp section...

I personally find the clean tones available in the Boss units to be superior to the Line 6 ones so it works out nicely for me... The acoustic simulator in my GT5 sounds fantastic for getting that traditional ultra clean metal clean tone... Doesn't actually sound like an acoustic but that's not what I'm after anyways.

 

[Unavailable]

Ben, that was class.

 

[GuitarHack]

There is a MUCH better way of doing something like this. I've never personally run into an amp with a stereo FX loop like that... But here's my rig...

Guitar > Boss GT5 input
Boss GT5 FX Send > 5150 input
5150 FX Send > Boss GT5 FX Return
Boss GT5 Output > 5150 FX Return

This is what's known as the 4 cable method. It will work with any processor that has it's own switchable FX loop. Basically the way it works is that I am placing the 5150's preamp section inside the GT5 effects loop, so by turning on the GT5 FX loop, it turns on the 5150 distortion, and then I switch to a clean patch on my GT5 that has the GT5 effects loop OFF, and it send my clean tone straight to the 5150 FX return. Works BRILLIANTLY.

I got rid of my Pod XT Live purely because it had no FX loop and I couldn't run a setup like this. Look into the GT5, GT6 or GT8 by Boss, they are all capable of this sort of setup. Fractal Audio Axe FX can do it too, as can tons of other processors I'm sure, just not the Pods.

Of course you can use the tube screamer as well, just put it right after the GT5 send and before the amp input.


I personally find the clean tones available in the Boss units to be superior to the Line 6 ones so it works out nicely for me... The acoustic simulator in my GT5 sounds fantastic for getting that traditional ultra clean metal clean tone... Doesn't actually sound like an acoustic but that's not what I'm after anyways.

Do you have any issues with noise and a loss of overall volume and balls using this method with the 5150? I was using the 4CM with the GT-8 and my Krank and had to put the Noisegate last in the GT-8's assignable effects order to get rid of quite a bit of noise. Also, I had to set the GT-8's Effect Return Volume quite a bit higher than 100 to overcome the signal loss through the GT-8. Even once I had sorted out the Level problems, via adjusting the Level Pot on the back of the GT-8 and all other effects levels to maintain unity gain within the GT-8, it still sounded like I had dropped the gain to half and reduced all other amp settings. I still think this is caused by the GT-8 and not the Effect Loop on the amp since all that is is a breakout point between the Pre and Power Sections. I think the GT-8 is too lossy. It is a great idea in theory to be able to use the Wah's and OD's before the Amps Distortion and then Delay, Verb, Modulation effects after that or to use the GT-8's nice cleans straight into the Power section of the amp and whatever effects after. The problem wasn't nearly as noticeable whilst using Clean tones from the 8 into the Power section as it was when using the Amps distortion. I even used the Channel Select option on the GT-8 so I could change amp channels using the GT-8 when changing between clean and Distorted Patches and not the amp's footswitch (not sure if the GT-5 has that option). Great in theory.

To make a long story short, have you noticed that your amps distortion tone is somewhat "sapped" using the 4CM? I am hoping your answer is no since I am getting a 6505 soon and would love to successfully be able to use the 4CM. I can't recall anyone over at BossGTCentral getting it to work perfectly either, particularly with any Mesa's or amps with Parallel Effects loops.

Thanks for any feedback.

 

[Fifth_Horseman]

I use the 4-cable method with a GT-5 as described above as well. Works well with both my old Peavey XXL and my ENGL Fireball.

To address the question of tone loss:
Yes, there is a little (!) bit of tone loss. Apparently it is caused by level inconsistencies between the amp's FX loop and the GT-5.
That basically means that the loss can be minimal with some amps and quite big with others. Just like some amps take pedals in the loop very well and others don't.
I lose about a 0.5 step of gain when using the GT-5 instead of going straight in... so I'm having the gain on my Fireball on 4.5/10 without and 5.5/10 with the GT-5 to achieve the same gain level. There is a noticeable loss of tone but it's not big enough to cause me grief, and since I always use the GT-5 I forgot about it after a few days. Wouldn't use this setup for studio purpose of course, but live I could care less... the soundguys usually kill/change way more of the tone than my GT-5 ever could.

GH, so far I haven't tried either the GT-8 or the 6505 (or the Krank), so I can't comment on your question. I suspected you might have your GT output level wrong because of the gain loss but you explained quite well how you sorted out the level issues. So I guess you did everything you could. Maybe have a look at the Boss GT forums if there is information about your combination.

 

[AdamWathan]

I don't notice any difference at ALL, I had mine setup so I could quickly AB between the 2 when I was trying to match volumes and I notice zero gain/tone loss... If you are noticing a loss in gain, maybe you need to increase the input level on the GT8? I'm not sure if it has that knob, but my GT5 has an input level so I can set the input gain coming from the guitar... I just set it so that my amp was receiving the same level of signal as it is when I plug straight in... There may be a bit of a tonal difference but I never run my 5150 without my GT5 so I couldn't tell you to be honest. I do get some noise, but I've never noticed it being more than when I plug straight in...

The reason I went with the GT5 over the GT6 and GT8 is because on the GT5, the Loop is it's own effect that can be turned on and off and placed anywhere in the chain whereas on the GT6 and GT8, you have to set the overdrive to external to activate the loop, so you can't use the GT6 and GT8s internal overdrives as boosts for the 5150 (at least that was my understanding reading through the manual...) On my GT5, I use the Natural Overdrive as a boost to save me having more pedals and cables all over the place and I actually just returned my Sparkle Drive yesterday because I couldn't notice a significant difference in an actual band situation between my tones using the GT5 overdrive and using the Sparkle Drive... Anyways, that's enough off topic rambling haha, let us know how the 4 cable method works out with your GT8/6505 once you get it!

 

[fremen]

The reason I went with the GT5 over the GT6 and GT8 is because on the GT5, the Loop is it's own effect that can be turned on and off and placed anywhere in the chain whereas on the GT6 and GT8, you have to set the overdrive to external to activate the loop, so you can't use the GT6 and GT8s internal overdrives as boosts for the 5150

You didn't read the manual well, I've been using a GT8 with the 4CM method for a year, using the GT8 TS9 simulation to boost the drive channel of my amp Tomorrow my GT8 is going though, just got a Digitech GSP1101
BTW, the POD X3/X3L now have an effect loop

 

[Kazrog]

It's this kind of stuff that eventually led me to play through a Line 6 HD 147 half-stack live instead of a tube amp. Way easier to deal with. Effects loops ALWAYS suck.

 

[alan1990]

but the only pod with a loop is the x3 and the pro model so the old beans are out of the question

 

[AdamWathan]

You didn't read the manual well, I've been using a GT8 with the 4CM method for a year, using the GT8 TS9 simulation to boost the drive channel of my amp Tomorrow my GT8 is going though, just got a Digitech GSP1101
BTW, the POD X3/X3L now have an effect loop

Why do you have to say these things and make me want to spend more money on a GT8 Damn you.... damn you to hell.

 

[GuitarHack]

Fifth_Horseman: Thanks for that info. "That basically means that the loss can be minimal with some amps and quite big with others. Just like some amps take pedals in the loop very well and others don't." Rev doesn't like pedals in the loop, at least not Guitar Level pedals. Pedals with Line Level ins/outs are supposed to work better. I did spend quite a bit of time level matching with just the 8 into the effect return, then just with the 8's Send in the front of the amp, then full 4CM with my cab mic'd and looking at the Input Level in my DAW (not that I was using the 4CM for recording, just thought it was a good way of level matching) checking I had unity gain within the 8 with all the effects in any patches turned on/off, etc... Then when I changed the amps volume it was all wrong again. Gave up. Looks like it just doesn't work properly with the Rev.


F0RBIDDEN: It's good to hear that the tonal difference is minimal with the 5150. I assume it takes pedals in the Loop well then.

As fremen mentioned, the Loop is definitely its own Effect and is able to be assigned ANYWHERE inside the GT-8's Effect Chain (a feature which I don't think the GT-5 or even 6 has). As you will see, the OD can be put before the Loop.

EDIT: may contain nudies in banner ads on the following image pages, sorry, maybe NSFW





You should be able to check out the GT8Editor and patch with this file:
http://www.keepmyfile.com/download/a557f82074296

To move any items in the Effect Chain, just click on the Tab of the item you want to move at the top (EG LOOP) and then click the "To Right" or "To Left" buttons to position it anywhere. Included was one of the patches I was using. This one has the NS at the start of the chain and not on the Loop as I previously mentioned.

 

[fremen]

Why do you have to say these things and make me want to spend more money on a GT8 Damn you.... damn you to hell.

Oh, and did I mention the GT8 have a channel amp switcher ? For each patch you can specify if you want the clean or drive channel. No more tap dancing on stage :Smokin: If you can live without the channel amp switcher, get the Digitech instead. You'll then use your GT5 as a MIDI pedalboard

 

[Brett - K A L I S I A]

Hey guys thanks a lot for your answers (even yours Ben, hahaha)! I think I'll just go the easy route then (the 4 cables) Too bad it doesn't allow to use clean AND dirty at the same time but oh well, I'll survive

 

[Ericlingus]

Can't you run dual tones in the boss gt8?

 

[JeffTD]

After talking to Brett, I bleeb he's going for the PODpro and 4-cable method, and using his Laptop to change patches, as well as run clicktrack/synths.