I'm for letting people live their lives as they see fit. If they want an abortion, fine. If they want a gun, fine.
Kiss my ass Joey Tempest...
- Thread starter ashaman7122
- Start date
AngraRULES said:
Sorry to disappoint you...but I do not own one. I do, however, borrow one on occasion for...(ahem) personal reasons...BUT I AM NOT A HICK!
Rock on!
As long as we're covering all the bases on this post and getting it all aired out:
Let's talk about those damned wrong-number-dialers...what the hell do we do about them?
Rock on!
Let's talk about those damned wrong-number-dialers...what the hell do we do about them?
Rock on!
AngraRULES
Member
metal71
Member
Yngvai X
Dark Emperor
Yngvai X said:
Since Claus didn't answer, maybe I can.
I'm from Norway though, but that's scandinavia as well.
It's the same here in Norway as in most scandinavian countries....
if you are too patriotic, you're either a nazi or an old man. Or as we call it here, "new-nazis".
And I can guess that every norwegian citizen think that americans are too patriotic for your own good(no offense).
Personally, I'm kind of sick and tired of the fraze, "America, the best country in the WOOOooooooorld!".
But another thing is that I love your country as well. Goddamn you guys has alot of cool bands..hehe, and I can't wait to get down there in september to kick ass on stage and drink way to much beers for my own good!
Metal forEEEEEEEEEEEVERRR!!
Truls
drummer of Circus Maximus
Pellaz
Tigron of Immanion
(Yep, it's as we feared. The Norwegians are gonna kick some Swedish butt in the drinking contest yet again this year. 
)
I don't think the USA is the best in the world in every category, but considering the late start we got compared to the Old World, we've done pretty well for ourselves.
Back to the ANWR discussion, here's a good link for info on the petroleum deposits there in the "1002 Area" as it's called, along with some good maps...and some dense geological discussion, but that's what happens when those pesky true facts get in the way: http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/fs-0028-01/fs-0028-01.htm
Straight from the US Geological Survey's site. Gotta hate those true facts, huh?
I Googled to get it, and on the way I passed several pretty humorous eco-kook sites (including the Sierra Club's). Yep, just as I thought, they're -still- parroting the same "Help save the ANWR from depradation for just six months' worth of oil!" crap they've been falsely bandying around for years. But, that's how they get their donor-money; without fear, they are nothing.
You are correct........but not for the reasons you think. 5 out of 10 points.
We haven't gone to alternative sources of power because none of them so far have proven to be technically feasible from an engineering standpoint.*
Matt, name one alternative source that's viable for large-scale power generating applications. Before you answer, let me help you out by noting that, to equal even a small coal, hydro or nuclear power plant, a solar array would have to cover 40 square miles of otherwise animal-friendly land. And you'd still have a problem after sunset.
For an excellent discussion of the engineering issues involved, see the treatise "Know Nukes" by James P. Hogan, most recently collected in Minds, Machines and Evolution.
---
* there is one likely future power source currently under development, but since only futurists, engineers and hard SF fans know what it is, we're safe from discussing it for about ten more years....
)I don't think the USA is the best in the world in every category, but considering the late start we got compared to the Old World, we've done pretty well for ourselves.
Back to the ANWR discussion, here's a good link for info on the petroleum deposits there in the "1002 Area" as it's called, along with some good maps...and some dense geological discussion, but that's what happens when those pesky true facts get in the way: http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/fs-0028-01/fs-0028-01.htm
Straight from the US Geological Survey's site. Gotta hate those true facts, huh?
I Googled to get it, and on the way I passed several pretty humorous eco-kook sites (including the Sierra Club's). Yep, just as I thought, they're -still- parroting the same "Help save the ANWR from depradation for just six months' worth of oil!" crap they've been falsely bandying around for years. But, that's how they get their donor-money; without fear, they are nothing.
Yngvai X said:
You are correct........but not for the reasons you think. 5 out of 10 points.
We haven't gone to alternative sources of power because none of them so far have proven to be technically feasible from an engineering standpoint.*
Matt, name one alternative source that's viable for large-scale power generating applications. Before you answer, let me help you out by noting that, to equal even a small coal, hydro or nuclear power plant, a solar array would have to cover 40 square miles of otherwise animal-friendly land. And you'd still have a problem after sunset.
For an excellent discussion of the engineering issues involved, see the treatise "Know Nukes" by James P. Hogan, most recently collected in Minds, Machines and Evolution.
---
* there is one likely future power source currently under development, but since only futurists, engineers and hard SF fans know what it is, we're safe from discussing it for about ten more years....
metal71
Member
Wind power is where it's at. We could even harness it and then transfer the charged batteries to our electric capable car engines. And the good thing is, with all the hot air blowing around this forum, (my own included) WE'LL NEVER RUN OUT!!!
Yngvai X
Dark Emperor
Pellaz said:
I think theres sources that have been developed that we don't know about, or ways of using what has been developed that we don't know about, thats basically being kept from us because of the reasons I gave. Is it realistic for me to think that? Maybe not, but I'm a bit of a conspiracy theorist...I don't think we are being told the full story about everything that goes on in the world.
I included your little footnote to show a possibility of what im talking about.
Leave it to Europeans to learn all the wrong lessons from the Second World War. Patriotism isn't the problem, it's tyranny and the appeasement of tyranny. And the lack of national will to fight until it's too late.
chibitotoro
Member
When riding around the Japanese countryside on the rail system last summer, one thing I noticed is that around 75% of all the houses I saw had solar panels on the roofs. Obviously these panels are not enough to fuel every appliance in the house, but I'm sure it helps a lot and cuts down on energy costs significantly in the long run. I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting that we jump to another energy source instead of coal or oil, but if we start inserting alternate sources like the sun or wind into our daily lives a little at a time, then the reserves of our non-infinite energy sources will last much longer, and allow some significant advances in research to be made.
metal71
Member
Leave it to Europeans to learn all the wrong lessons from the Second World War. Patriotism isn't the problem, it's tyranny and the appeasement of tyranny. And the lack of national will to fight until it's too late.
I've never seen 2 quotes in a row like these that I absolutely agree with. You two should get together and start a political party. Or something. Seriously good points, though.
chibitotoro said:
I've never seen 2 quotes in a row like these that I absolutely agree with. You two should get together and start a political party. Or something. Seriously good points, though.
Yngvai X
Dark Emperor
adaher said:
No, patriotism is the problem. Patriotism ALLOWS tyrants to control their population. You incite patriotic feelings and nationalism, and it all of a sudden becomes much easier to convince people that what the government is doing is the right thing. I think GERMANS more than anyone else know a thing or two about this.
Let me ask you this: *why* do you think patriotism is necessary? Let me remind you that the dictionary definition of a patriot is someone who vigorously supports their country. I'm not talking about you thinking the US is a nice place to live cause, lets be honest...talking day to day living, talking a nice community in any part of this country, differs very very little from normal day to day living in nice communities is *any* wealthy nation. The question is why is it necessary to "vigorously support your country"? Why is it important to BLINDLY FOLLOW every decision made by groups of people who make these decisions based first and foremost on THEIR PERSONAL INTEREST and not yours?
I fear it is much worse to live in a country where criticising the government and their actions is deemed unacceptable by the OTHER CITIZENS rather than the government itself. Because at least if voicing your opinion just got you thrown in jail, at least some other people might have heard you.
No, patriotism is the problem. Patriotism ALLOWS tyrants to control their population. You incite patriotic feelings and nationalism, and it all of a sudden becomes much easier to convince people that what the government is doing is the right thing. I think GERMANS more than anyone else know a thing or two about this.
Perhaps German patriotism didn't involve a love of democracy. It involved a love of the German race. Perhaps Europeans can't see the difference between American-style patriotism and European nationalism.
Without love of liberty and democracy, American patriotism wouldn't exist. There is no American race. Our patriotism is based on our traditions of liberty. But it wouldn't be the first time Europeans projected their shortcomings onto us.
Let me ask you this: *why* do you think patriotism is necessary? Let me remind you that the dictionary definition of a patriot is someone who vigorously supports their country. I'm not talking about you thinking the US is a nice place to live cause, lets be honest...talking day to day living, talking a nice community in any part of this country, differs very very little from normal day to day living in nice communities is *any* wealthy nation. The question is why is it necessary to "vigorously support your country"? Why is it important to BLINDLY FOLLOW every decision made by groups of people who make these decisions based first and foremost on THEIR PERSONAL INTEREST and not yours?
Here's where you go wrong. Vigorously supporting your country is not the same as blindly following your country's leaders.
I'd say the reverse is a problem in Europe. There is little patriotism, and thus little will to fight for their survival. Europe hasn't the foggiest notion of how to deal with the problem of other cultures coming in and acting in ways that are decidedly not in the European tradition of liberalism. I get the feeling that Europe will just quietly allow itself to be conquered demographically.
The same thing may happen here in the US, but it's a good thing in our case. We are multicultural, but everyone who comes here loves the idea of America and proudly seek to become Americans. Our country may be mostly brown instead of white in 50 years, but we'll still be fundamentally the same nation. That's because there is pride in the idea of America and what it stands for, and it's infectious. IT's a tradition that has been passed on to every generation of immigrants that has entered this country.
How is Europe imparting their vision onto their immigrants? Not at all as far as I can see. Where is the pride in being French, or German, or Swedish? Why would anyone want to become those things? Sure, they want to live in your country to have a better life, but do they really want to become a part of the nation and its traditions? Apparently not. So what you have is a very assertive immigrant group trying to hold on to its traditions in the face of what it sees as a weak and decadent culture, and extremists are even urging the transformation of European nations into Muslim states. How are Europeans resisting this? Do Europeans believe their culture is worth defending?
I fear it is much worse to live in a country where criticising the government and their actions is deemed unacceptable by the OTHER CITIZENS rather than the government itself. Because at least if voicing your opinion just got you thrown in jail, at least some other people might have heard you.
When a foreigner criticizes America, he can count on half the citizens supporting him and half disagreeing. That's what happens when you have a vibrant national debate. When an American criticizes Europe, Europeans are 99% unanimous in not accepting the criticism. Why is this? I don't know. Maybe not enough private media sources, not enough protection of free speech?
Perhaps German patriotism didn't involve a love of democracy. It involved a love of the German race. Perhaps Europeans can't see the difference between American-style patriotism and European nationalism.
Without love of liberty and democracy, American patriotism wouldn't exist. There is no American race. Our patriotism is based on our traditions of liberty. But it wouldn't be the first time Europeans projected their shortcomings onto us.
Let me ask you this: *why* do you think patriotism is necessary? Let me remind you that the dictionary definition of a patriot is someone who vigorously supports their country. I'm not talking about you thinking the US is a nice place to live cause, lets be honest...talking day to day living, talking a nice community in any part of this country, differs very very little from normal day to day living in nice communities is *any* wealthy nation. The question is why is it necessary to "vigorously support your country"? Why is it important to BLINDLY FOLLOW every decision made by groups of people who make these decisions based first and foremost on THEIR PERSONAL INTEREST and not yours?
Here's where you go wrong. Vigorously supporting your country is not the same as blindly following your country's leaders.
I'd say the reverse is a problem in Europe. There is little patriotism, and thus little will to fight for their survival. Europe hasn't the foggiest notion of how to deal with the problem of other cultures coming in and acting in ways that are decidedly not in the European tradition of liberalism. I get the feeling that Europe will just quietly allow itself to be conquered demographically.
The same thing may happen here in the US, but it's a good thing in our case. We are multicultural, but everyone who comes here loves the idea of America and proudly seek to become Americans. Our country may be mostly brown instead of white in 50 years, but we'll still be fundamentally the same nation. That's because there is pride in the idea of America and what it stands for, and it's infectious. IT's a tradition that has been passed on to every generation of immigrants that has entered this country.
How is Europe imparting their vision onto their immigrants? Not at all as far as I can see. Where is the pride in being French, or German, or Swedish? Why would anyone want to become those things? Sure, they want to live in your country to have a better life, but do they really want to become a part of the nation and its traditions? Apparently not. So what you have is a very assertive immigrant group trying to hold on to its traditions in the face of what it sees as a weak and decadent culture, and extremists are even urging the transformation of European nations into Muslim states. How are Europeans resisting this? Do Europeans believe their culture is worth defending?
I fear it is much worse to live in a country where criticising the government and their actions is deemed unacceptable by the OTHER CITIZENS rather than the government itself. Because at least if voicing your opinion just got you thrown in jail, at least some other people might have heard you.
When a foreigner criticizes America, he can count on half the citizens supporting him and half disagreeing. That's what happens when you have a vibrant national debate. When an American criticizes Europe, Europeans are 99% unanimous in not accepting the criticism. Why is this? I don't know. Maybe not enough private media sources, not enough protection of free speech?
Yngvai X
Dark Emperor
Maybe Americans latch onto patriotism because we have no culture. Europeans have a culture thats over a thousand years old. Our culture begins with McDonalds. I think many Europeans don't feel a need to have nationalistic views because its the culture they are proud of, not the country itself, per se. Europeans tend to value tradition MUCH more than Americans do, and (to bring this slightly back on to a musical topic) I believe this has much to do with the overall higher level of appriciation for many different kinds of music that Europe has as a whole that we don't.
Patriotism, to me, is a political idea. Hence when you are overly patriotic you tend to follow politicians without question, because you feel you need to "support" them. As far as European immigration is concerned, I can't speak too much for it since I don't know so much, only that, at least Germany has pretty strict immigration laws (I entertained the idea of moving there earlier in the year and pretty much unless you're being hired by a company, have a special skill, or are marrying a German, you can't get a permanent work visa), and I know they (are/were) passing a law in Sweden where if an immigrant cannot fluently speak Swedish within 2 months of moving there that they will be deported.
And I find your last paragraph really funny, only because I wanna know what sources you're getting those percentages from. Although you might have a point about Europeans typically not accepting criticism from an American, but I think thats because, as has been stated in this thread already, many Americans probably couldn't even name what country was what on a map of Europe, let alone know enough about European culture/politics to even give criticism worth taking to heart.
Anyway, maybe I'm just a really big cynic, but I much prefer individualism to patriotism.
Maybe Americans latch onto patriotism because we have no culture. Europeans have a culture thats over a thousand years old. Our culture begins with McDonalds. I think many Europeans don't feel a need to have nationalistic views because its the culture they are proud of, not the country itself, per se. Europeans tend to value tradition MUCH more than Americans do, and (to bring this slightly back on to a musical topic) I believe this has much to do with the overall higher level of appriciation for many different kinds of music that Europe has as a whole that we don't.
I disagree with everything but the last part.
Americans do have culture. Liberty and democracy and the American dream are deeply embedded in American culture and the reason for our patriotism. Europeans(British excepted) don't have that tradition. They adopted democracy because it "works" the best, but I don't detect that innate love of freedom, or the faith that we can all be anything we want to be if we work hard enough. I get the impression that Europeans have fallen into being fatalistic about their lives. Why is the suicide rate so high? Why is there so little citizen action to prevent crime? Why are so many people unemployed for months, if not years? Why does Europe never fight to stop genocide or defend itself from attack? I get the impression that if AL Qaeda had hit Berlin on 9/11/01, the attitude would have been "What's the point? We won't win anyway, even if we do fight."
Patriotism, to me, is a political idea. Hence when you are overly patriotic you tend to follow politicians without question, because you feel you need to "support" them.
Well yeah, there is "overly", but I think you guys have been criticizing the idea of any patriotism at all. Of course it's possible to be too patriotic to the point where you never question your leaders.
And I find your last paragraph really funny, only because I wanna know what sources you're getting those percentages from. Although you might have a point about Europeans typically not accepting criticism from an American, but I think thats because, as has been stated in this thread already, many Americans probably couldn't even name what country was what on a map of Europe, let alone know enough about European culture/politics to even give criticism worth taking to heart.
I get it from forums like this one, although political forums, not metal forums.
And Americans that bother to comment on European politics generally know as much as Europeans do about American politics. Those ignorant Americans don't generally frequent political forums. So if Europeans are justifying their inability to take criticism based on perceived American ignorance, they are deluding themselves.
I disagree with everything but the last part.
Americans do have culture. Liberty and democracy and the American dream are deeply embedded in American culture and the reason for our patriotism. Europeans(British excepted) don't have that tradition. They adopted democracy because it "works" the best, but I don't detect that innate love of freedom, or the faith that we can all be anything we want to be if we work hard enough. I get the impression that Europeans have fallen into being fatalistic about their lives. Why is the suicide rate so high? Why is there so little citizen action to prevent crime? Why are so many people unemployed for months, if not years? Why does Europe never fight to stop genocide or defend itself from attack? I get the impression that if AL Qaeda had hit Berlin on 9/11/01, the attitude would have been "What's the point? We won't win anyway, even if we do fight."
Patriotism, to me, is a political idea. Hence when you are overly patriotic you tend to follow politicians without question, because you feel you need to "support" them.
Well yeah, there is "overly", but I think you guys have been criticizing the idea of any patriotism at all. Of course it's possible to be too patriotic to the point where you never question your leaders.
And I find your last paragraph really funny, only because I wanna know what sources you're getting those percentages from. Although you might have a point about Europeans typically not accepting criticism from an American, but I think thats because, as has been stated in this thread already, many Americans probably couldn't even name what country was what on a map of Europe, let alone know enough about European culture/politics to even give criticism worth taking to heart.
I get it from forums like this one, although political forums, not metal forums.
And Americans that bother to comment on European politics generally know as much as Europeans do about American politics. Those ignorant Americans don't generally frequent political forums. So if Europeans are justifying their inability to take criticism based on perceived American ignorance, they are deluding themselves.
Pellaz
Tigron of Immanion
Yngvai X said:
Yep....and it's nothing super-secret, it's just that there isn't too much noise being made about it...yet. I'll give you a hint, though..... I have yet to meet an anti-nuke activist who had a CLUE about nuclear fusion power generation. We've surpassed the break-even point with small test reactors in Europe, so it's only a matter of time.
chibitotoro said:
Yep, I agree with you here...my question referred to large-scale applications. Solar cells can help reduce your dependence on utility-supplied power, but they are still annoyingly expensive for the wattage....and they have to be maintained....and they are useless at night...are resource- and pollution-intensive to manufacture (germanium often has to be strip-mined).
Still, every little bit helps.
Yngvai X
Dark Emperor
adaher said:
Well, I gather you consider holding deep rooted political ideals (liberty and democracy) as "culture." Let me give you an example of what I mean when I say "culture" and its one that I experienced first hand. When I was in Germany I walked into a church that was built in the 1300s (more accurately, it was finished being built then, but started much earlier). The architecture was absolutely fucking gorgeous. The fact that I was standing in a structure that was older than anyone even sailing across the atlantic ocean to the continent I live on had me awestruck. And what was even cooler was that this church existed amidst a modern shopping area complete with a Starbucks coffee shop just down the street. That is what I mean by culture, and Europe's appriciation for it. The only real culture in the United States is that of the American Indian. Culture to me is deep rooted artistic, creative, and ceremonial workings. We don't really have that at all here. Whatever culture we have was brought here by immigrants, hence why sometimes you'll hear the US refered to as having an "anti-culture."
As far as the rest of this quote...I'm sorry but what? Lack of an innate love of freedom? I'll tell you something, when I was in Germany, I had a greater sense of "freedom" than I do here. No one really gives a shit about anyone else over there, and I don't mean that in a negative way. I mean that, for example, when I was wearing leather jeans while walking around my town, I got called a "faggot" by not one but two passers by, yet while in Germany no one gave a shit. How there is an inherent need to conform to some sort of social status, lest you be ostricised by your peers over here, yet in Europe (and this is coming from the mouth of my german friend) no one really cares. People are just overall much more accepting and less judgemental there, and to me that allows true freedom.
Crime and suicide rates I can't speak much for, only that I know the US has a much higher murder rate than any western european country (taking into account population sizes). As far as stopping genocide, at least as far as the Milosovic thing a few years back goes, it was a joint effort from the US as well as NATO and the UN to put a stop to that. And when talking about Europe, its kind of pointless to include eastern european countries into the mix, since even western europeans consider those countries as near 3rd world countries.
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