Let's talk about LABELS. I'm researching for my own bands and need advice!

coreysMonster said:
and who can off anyone who fucks with his bread'n'butter :heh:
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Thank you, that made me smile after having a terrible cup of coffee (trust me to be the first person to use the machine straight after cleaning...


yeah he's the ideal person you need...

he inspired me to stick in at when attending music business lectures...


You also need someone who can make an epic entrance like in Ep1 of Season 3... (yes i'm aware i watch this show too often... the tattoo proves it)
 
^wtf are you guys talking about? %)

Right now I'm negotiating a deal that would require the band to pay money to the label so they would release it. However this includes pressing, promo and distribution so it seems to be fair.

I also think that nowadays a band wouldn't need a label and could go diy. But that's only possible if at least one person in the band can work a fulltime job promoting the band and has the knowledge to do so. Also having a shitload of money helps. ;)
 
These are the costs associated with a release for Faderhead on my own label:

CD manufacturing (1000 CDs): 1000 Euros
Cover/booklet design: 350-600 Euros (I do this myself, so it goes back to 0)
Mastering: 250-350 Euros (I use US-based guys who cost only 70% because of the cheap dollar)
Promo Photography: 500-1000 Euros (this includes rights to use the photos for everything for all time in the whole universe - I do this myself too, since it's my job and I can use my assistant or a photographer friend to take the pics)

Press advertisements: 350-600 Euro per ad (you don't get interviews without buying ads, even if you are popular, but especially not if you are unknown - THIS is the biggest part of anyone's budget other than tour support!)

Video budget: 200-1500 Euros (I shoot and edit my own videos, this is just the materials, locations, rentals, etc.)

Tour support: 3000-6000 Euros (if you want to buy onto a 15-20 date tour and figure 200-400 Euros per date as a buy-on)

DJ promo: 400 Euros (I use an established agency for that but use my own a dj mailing list of the most important DJs who get full CDs instead of the mp3s that come through the agency)

Press/Review Promo: 100 Euros (sending out about 20 CDs to established print mags and webzines - the rest get mp3 delivery!)

This puts me up to something like 5500 (if I dont tour and only pay for ads in the 3 biggest mags) and 8-10000 Euros per release (if I add a tour to this).

If you take an average of 6 Euro net gain per CD (which is feasible) then you need to sell all 1000 to break even - and you still haven't toured. After selling the first 1000, then it starts getting profitable.

That (and the lack of networking connections) is the reason why I usually suggest going with a GOOD label for the first 1-2 records. It will also be helpful in getting a proper booking agency to get you on big festivals. After you made a small name for yourself and you have the appropriate contacts you can go DIY (with both label and booking) Well, unless you are like 98% of all musicians: a totally delusional dumbass who has no clue about excel sheets, organization, human contact and budgeting.

Most musicians (actually most humans) are like that. So if you have problems getting organized to play 3 shows in a row, your bassplayer can't remember his parts, your drummer is constantly drunk and the singer cares more about impressing the chicks than showing up early for rehearsal - then you should never DIY ... :)
 
I'll say this for you dude, you definitely don't sugar-coat things :lol: (to your credit though, make no mistake, it's really great insight! :headbang: )
 
HeadCrusher said:
^wtf are you guys talking about? %)

Right now I'm negotiating a deal that would require the band to pay money to the label so they would release it. However this includes pressing, promo and distribution so it seems to be fair.

I also think that nowadays a band wouldn't need a label and could go diy. But that's only possible if at least one person in the band can work a fulltime job promoting the band and has the knowledge to do so. Also having a shitload of money helps. ;)
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Headcrusher: look at my listings up there. I would NEVER EVER pay a label money to do pressing/promo/distro. The only reason the label actually exists is to a) front the money for those things and b) provide contacts.

A label that is not interested enough in a band to pay for all of this should never be even considered.
 
smy1: not my band, not my money. ;) if the band chooses to go for that deal i can only help them to make the best out of it. however i can see how that route is interesting: the band gets to be on the same label as some other cool bands in their genre and they would have to pay someone to do the promo anyways. so lets say the label asks for 2.000 euros for all the stuff mentioned above (no numbers have been talked that's just an assumption): If I take off 500 Euros for CD manufacturing (I don't think they would make 1.000 copies so I'm taking half of your budget plan) that leaves 1.500 Euros for all the promo/distro. With this kind of money left the band could buy 3 ads in magazines and that's it.

I'm totally with you on going diy but who's got the 10.000 euros to do it? I think touring is way more important than having a label. But which booking agency is going to take on this new band that just recorded their first record but haven't toured yet and hence don't have any fans who know them? I mean how would you approach a booking agency in this scenario?
 
Headcrusher: to be honest, if you want a label "to be on the same label as some other cool bands in their genre" - then you have your priorities all fucked up.

I mean, this is about making the music you love and sustaining yourself financially. Here's how my "unknown band" budget would look:

a) Press 1000 cds (4 page booklet in b/w): 589 Euros (if you print 500 CDs, it'll still cost you 490 Euros, so you might as well get 1000 right away)

b) Find a great type designer to design a very minimalist frontcover with just your bandname and albumname: 200 Euros

c) Search DeviantArt, photo.net, flickr etc. for a great beginner/amateur photographer to take 1 main band photo: 100 Euros + 25 Euros for a bottle of his favorite booze

d) Get your website designed and coded by some asian/indian coder that you find on one of these "design bidding" sites: 150 Euros (base it on Wordpress or any other blog)

e) Create LOTS and LOTS of interesting content using your dad's videocamera and iMovie, your cellphone camera or similar things: 0 Euros

f) Spend 10h a week on all relevant internet forums for your music (local, national and international) and spread the word about your band: 0 Euros

g) buy 1 ad and negotiate a 2 page article in the biggest national magazine for your style of music: 600 Euros (if you are in a tiny country, buy an ad in the biggest German or US magazine).

h) Send out 100 CDs to relevant webzines, print magazines etc. for review: 300 Euros

i) Shoot a home video (just like Ken did for Borealis) and edit it to a song using iMovie or some other simple software: 0 Euros (make sure you come across as a band with personality and not small-town dudes who want to be rockstars).

j) Print up 100 shirts (70 for men and 30 for girls) of the same white on black design: 550 Euros

k) Get started playing gigs and festivals that you booked 6-12 months ago for the time of the CD release. If you didn't do that, start playing self-organized shows in your area. Buy the eBook "Tour:Smart", the best book on touring ever written. And most importantly:

l) DON'T SUCK!!! :)

Altogether that's 2600 Euros of costs. You will get EXACTLY the same amount of exposure (I'd bet you actually get a ton more) as you'd get with a label that lets you pay for stuff. Usually those labels do not believe in your band and don't do jack shit for you. If I was a label getting paid 2000 Euros by a band, do you think I'd spend more than 2000 Euros on that band that I don't really believe in anyway?

The difference now is that you earn EVERY cent you make off of the CDs and shirts. In a normal contract you buy the CDs you sell as merch from the label. So if you buy them for 6 Euros and sell them for 10, you make 4 Euros per CD. If it's your CD, you make 9 Euros per CD. Same with shirts. Make them for 5,50 Euro per shirt and sell them for 15 instead of buying them from the label or an affiliated merch company for 9 Euros and selling them for 15. You effectively double your income. Don't let me get started on how much I think it sucks to buy YOUR OWN ALBUM from your label for more than manufacturing cost (60-95 cents).

Also 2600 euros divided by 4 or 5 in a regular band is 500-600 Euros per person. That's not a lot of money, tbh.

I am all for using a label to get started, but use one that has the money to push you and not one that wants you to bring the money first ... unless all you care about is "being signed" so you can be cooler than your next door band ... :)
 
Thanks for all the detailed information. Again I have to say it's not my band and not my decision. But tbh some of your points have come to my mind too. Like, would they really spend more than the band gave them? I just thought maybe they might get better prizes for the ads than the band themselves would so they could get more ads for the same prize through the label.

Still there are some problems left unsolved: How do they get to play the festivals/other shows? I mean if they are not signed the show promoters wouldn't even consider them (after all nobody knows them, right? So why should they be playing the festival?). Maybe a booking company could get them there without being signed to a label but how do they get the booking company to take them on?
 
We set up our own label after negotiations for a deal stagnated, if you have the money time and motivation you can make it work. Just as Sammi said, the biggest part of the budget is ad's - we spent nearly as much on the ads as the whole production of the album. If you are self releasing you can always negotiate deals with the mags, the only UK mag we didn't have a covermount/ad with was Kerrang - the costs for an add that would only be available for a week were just astronomical.
 
HeadCrusher said:
Still there are some problems left unsolved: How do they get to play the festivals/other shows? I mean if they are not signed the show promoters wouldn't even consider them (after all nobody knows them, right? So why should they be playing the festival?). Maybe a booking company could get them there without being signed to a label but how do they get the booking company to take them on?
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+1
 
Headcrusher: yes, I wasn't adressing you personally but generally writing this up so everyone who reads it may profit from some of the info. :)

The booking problem is a problem that is generally the same for label and DIY bands. In many cases I only started playing more shows last year when I was on my own label, because unless there is a lot of power behind the label and they invest in your band, then even being on a medium sized label won't necessarily bring you the shows.

I was on one of the 5 biggest labels in my scene from 2006-2008, the records were very well received with a bunch of 2 page interviews and great reviews in all big magazines, but I still didn't get a lot of shows, despite being with one of the 4 main booking agencies. It was still completely random if it was possible to put me on a bigger festival (and those were always in foreign countries) and there were no attractive tours happening that would have warranted a buy-on.

It's just a problem in general and festival booking/touring is the most obscure business ever. Every booking agent I have ever talked to told me "we don't have a fucking clue what the festival people are thinking, but it's safe to say that they are probably not thinking but randomly picking bands because they don't have a clue". The way a lot of big agents (*cough* FKP Scorpio *cough*) work when it comes to the alternative/underground scene is that they look at the country's main magazines in the time from November to January and then pick the most represented bands. It's kinda hideous, but again, being represented "officially" via ads and stories still generates a lot of attention because it is perceived as "legit". Doesn't matter if you bought the ads and stories.

I think it's safe to say that a label that wants a band to partially pay for things like pressing and promo doesn't even have a lot of power to push a newcomer band effectively into interesting festivals (like maybe Roadrunner or similar labels can). They can help with getting the newcomer band a support slot on a well-known band's tour, but then again I doubt that a label that gets paid up-front will provide tour support. So the buy-on comes out of the band's pocket again (tour support would be recoupable anyway, but it's still a difference if you are not getting paid anything after a year or if you have to actively front money).

Obviously I don't know the band and label that you are talking about, but I always think that labels and modelling agencies are the same: the good ones pay for everything up front and then recoup from a percentage of the sales because they believe in the band/model and work hard to make a profit. The bad ones let the bands/models pay for a lot of stuff up-front and then basically sit on their asses hoping to collect a bit while doing jack-shit ...
 
Also: it's not particularly hard to sell 2500-3000 records in the metal scene in Europe if you play club shows regularly AND DON'T SUCK.

1000 records sold x 5 Euro net = 5.000 Euro turnover
2000 records sold x 5 Euro net = 10.000 Euro turnover
3000 records sold x 5 Euro net = 15.000 Euro turnover

So if you DIY, you could actually turn a profit from between 1000 and 2000 records onwards (with a label that wouldnt happen).

EDIT: by "DIY" I mean: create your own label with a proper logo, website, etc. I even "signed" two other acts to make it more legit. Saying "we are signed to XXX Records" sounds much better than "yea, bro, we be self-releasing, yo!" - even if it is the truth :)
 
Thanks again for the great insight. I recall you talking about creating a "fake" label a while back. It certainly seems to be a good idea. That's how I do the booking for my band btw. I always introduce myself as the booker of the band rather than the guitar player. Makes everything look more legit for sure.

Yet a few things remain to be discussed: You recommend to go with a good label that would rather give you money than ask you to give some to them. Provided YOU DON'T SUCK ;) how do you get the good labels to sign you? I mean it's not like you could call Roadrunner and tell them you would like them to release your record. Hell, even if the record is outstanding chances are it gets lost in the pile of demos on the A&R's desk. Actuallly I've been thinking about this for a while. Imagine you have the perfect concept for a band: Style, a potential fanbase that has money and is willing to spend it, even some decent songs... (I wrote these things in that particular order for a reason ;) ). You could lay it all out on the tables of the label bosses but how do you get in their office? (At least make them read your concept/listen to your songs; personal appointment is optional. ;) )

Same goes for the booking agencies. It might be true that festival people don't new too much about the underground. But since you are talking about FKP Skorpio - I think they don't have to. I mean all the bigger bands are obvious choices (Major Label Acts, new record out or coming out soon; Look at the Lineups of all the big Festivals and you'll find this scheme) and who cares who plays on the tent stage at 2 in the afternoon?
But this could actually be an advantage as well. I hope you don't mind if I take you as an example smy1: I assume FKP Scorpio are particularly interesting to you as the are doing M'era Luna. Given that you are in the same city don't you have a chance to get to know the guys, maybe even try to get friends with them so they would book you over any other artist they picked out of a magazine?

Btw would you mind naming the four major booking agencies you talked about? FKP Scorpio is one of them, Marek Lieberberg too.

Cheers
 
Headcrusher: I was unsigned for a long-ass time (always had offers in the late 90s from indie labels for my metal band that we turned down). I immediately got offers from four EBM/Darkelectro labels after my first ever electro track made it onto a compilation. My DJ friend played it, a girl from a promo agency that compiles the compilation heard it and they put it on the next edition. The boss of that agency asked me for a demo, so I wrote 3 songs in one week, burned them on a CD which he sent out to 4 scene/indie-labels. 3 weeks later I had 4 offers for deals.

My point here is: yes, get to know the people around the labels. I still think that one of the most important things to do when you want to make it in any business is to move to the places where the bigger players are. This could be Hamburg or Berlin in Germany, London in the UK, NYC/LA/Nashville/Atlanta in the US, etc.

The four booking agencies I was talking about were related to the EBM/Electro scene, not major mainstream agencies. Those are: Neuwerk, Contribe, Pluswelt and Protain for "my" scene. They don't have any metal bands in their roster.
 
I'm with you on the moving-to-where-it's-happening idea. However this seems to be necessary in Europe only. In America it seems bands can make it out of anywhere in the country. Slipknot (Iowa), Anti-Flag (Pennsylvania), Strike Anywhere (Virginia) and Rise Against (Illinois) come to my mind...
 
HeadCrusher: actually Martin Atkins (Pigface, NIN etc.) makes the point that it's much easier to start out AWAY from the big cities in the US because competition is a lot less fierce. I totally agree. The thing is that "the smaller markets" in the US still have bigger cities than the big cities in Germany, so there will still be industry/press/media to cover you.
 
Good point. Is that also from that "Tour: Smart" book? Looks like I have to get that. Any other books on that topic (Touring, Music business in general) that anyone can recommend?
 
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