Let's talk wrasslin'

The Grayfox

#MusicTheoryBro
Feb 27, 2004
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Bay Area, CA
I saw some wrestling chatter in the new music thread and thought I'd create a spot to discuss more of it. I'm a lifelong fan and could talk wrestling all day, every day. These days I'm more into AEW as far as wrestling in the States goes. As DE4life said, their roster is really bloated, but when it comes to actual wrestling, like the art of wrestling, it's way more interesting than WWE.

What're you guys into/watching currently?
 
I keep up with Raw but find three hours is too much of a slog, particularly when the writing isn't particularly good. They've got some incredible talent on that show but so often just waste it. Smackdown I find more manageable due to only being two hours, but I wouldn't say it's must-see for me either. I'd say the last time I genuinely looked forward to watching WWE was around 2016 - for a little while both Raw and Smackdown were going strong, with Smackdown especially having an incredible year before 2017's Wrestlemania. After that everything kinda started going downhill, and I don't think WWE has ever really gotten close to returning to that level of quality again. With that said, I don't think it's ever gone back to 'League of Nations' level bad.

I've been on board with AEW since the beginning - as an old school WCW fan it was hard not to be excited about a wrestling show returning to TNT. Seeing the likes of Tony Schiavone, Sting and Arn Anderson again was really cool, and Schiavone especially sounds reinvigorated compared to his final couple of years in WCW. People talk about AEW like it's WCW reborn but I don't really see it that way. It's more like a mixture of WWE, NJPW and ECW. I like that the show feels a lot less predictable to WWE, and by and large AEW tries to listen to its audience rather than antagonise it. They've built some good characters and have some solid storylines. I thnk their main flaw is that the shows are often too fast-paced, moving from one story to the next without leaving any room to breathe. Some segments don't have the impact they should because you've already been moved along to the next story being told.

One thing they have got right is the overall aesthetic. I was a fan of TNA during the 2005-2009 period, but they always seemed small-time because the Impact Zone was so dinky. In comparison, AEW feels like the big leagues, and that perception makes a big difference.
 
It's weird because I can watch a 3 hour Nitro and be entertained the whole time. I can't watch half an hour of Raw without wanting to turn it off. I haven't watched a full 3 hour Raw in years. I skip around because there's just too much shit I don't care about. The problem I have with WWE in general is that it isn't organic. It always feels very forced. Right down to the talent they push. They're putting the rocket on Theory (stupid name btw) and nobody really gives a shit.

I was watching a Chris Jericho interview last night and he said it best; if a million people want something and Vince doesn't, it doesn't happen. If a million people don't want something and Vince does, it happens. Too much rests on what one guy wants.
 
Yeah, completely agree. Even WCW in its dying days is more entertaining to me than modern day Raw. At least it's fun in a "so bad it's good" kind of way. Raw is just... boring. WWE has become so homogenised over the years that nothing feels new or exciting anymore. Everyone works the same style. Almost everyone cuts the same basic promo.

Speaking of Vince ideas, remember a few years ago when he decided he didn't want matches going on during commercials anymore? So suddenly there were a ton of 2/3 falls matches or super quick matches :D it was so stupid, although at least that time they realised their idiocy and stopped after a few weeks.

The only way WWE knows how to get big pops and ratings nowadays is bringing back nostalgia acts. Lesnar, Goldberg, Undertaker (before retirement), DX, Stone Cold, The Rock, Sting, even the nWo. All part timers coming in way past their prime and making the current guys look like chumps. Panic booking that elevated nobody.

Speaking of ridiculous WWE decisions, this vendetta they have against full names is hilarious. They'll have someone appear for a while under their full name, then suddenly drop it. I can't even begin to understand it. Does Riddle really sound any better than Matt Riddle? Austin Theory just becoming Theory? There's a million examples, and sometimes they'll randomly go back to using the full name again, like with Mustafa Ali recently. Very, very strange behaviour.

Talking about Ali now reminds me of Retribution :rofl: worst faction of all time? Take a group of genuinely talented performers, give them puntastic names and stupid masks, a nonsensical gimmick and then have them portrayed as jobbers. What the fuck were they thinking? I remember genuinely laughing so hard at poor Shane Thorne being called "Slapjack", and King saying on commentary that T-Bar stands for "That Boy Ain't Right" :D it was funny mainly because none of it was intended to be funny.
 
Well Vince McMahon is a very strange individual. If you listen to Bruce Prichard's podcast or really listen to anyone who has had dealings with him, it's pretty apparent. Even throughout the 80s and 90s, you can see his stamp on almost everything. He gets in weird moods and wants things done a very specific way and that's how they're done. The first name thing is a good example. And I wonder, does he just wake up one day and decide "I really hate first names?" He is so hellbent on owning everything and everyone that he doesn't care how ridiculous the whole thing is.

Retribution could have worked. Granted, not with the stupid name or the look. But the idea of Mustafa Ali leading a faction could have worked. But they don't get the time to make things work. They're given a few weeks and if it doesn't get over, they get shitcanned or made to look weak. The Judgment Day is a prime example. It was just getting going and then they turn on Edge? Why didn't Balor just turn on AJ the night before instead of walking out to a confused audience? None of that shit lines up. And it's because one guy loses the will or want to do something that was his idea in the first place.

Say what you want about HHH, but I loved what he did with NXT. It was enjoyable to watch. It felt different. Now it's WWE-lite. Somebody else needs to be in charge of making decisions. Vince is such a weird human being.
 
Lol yeah, there's definitely something not quite right there with Vince mentally. I mean, this is a guy who views sneezing as a sign of weakness. I don't think I've ever heard that before. His decisions over the years have become increasingly worse, and I think a lot of the 'good' ideas that got WWE out of the doldrums in the 90s came from other sources - Russo, Cornette, etc. Vince may have been able to act as a filter, but the origin of the ideas weren't his.

Ali did a good job attempting to rescue the dumpster fire that Retribution had become, but after their first few appearances there really was no way back. This was around the same time period they had that goofy 'Raw Underground' gimmick which was just so cringey. As for Judgement Day, the turn came way too quickly. They didn't give people a chance to really care about the faction before splitting it apart. Back in the day factions were generally together for at least a year, if not longer, so that people actually cared when members changed or the faction disbanded. Hard to care about Judgement Day booting out Edge when it had only been around for, what, a couple of months? Rhea hadn't even been in it from the start.

Gold and black NXT was great. I only watched the TakeOver events, but I always looked forward to them. Just straightforward stories with solid character work and in-ring stories you could get fully invested in. Current version of NXT is just lame af. NXT unfortunately got Vinced. Would be cool if Triple H reverted all the changes now that Vinnie Mac is seemingly on borrowed time anyway.

With that said, the main issue with NXT was that it did not prepare the wrestlers there for main roster callups. Names and entire gimmicks were changed, making the idea of NXT being 'developmental' in any way redundant. It was basically its own product, and as a result callups were somewhat pointless as Vince always wanted to completely change the person being called up anyway. In that sense the current version of NXT is far more suitable - it's just that current WWE kind of sucks so now NXT does as well.
 
https://www.fightful.com/wrestling/ricochet-says-omos-has-recommended-him-anime-watch-creates-straw-hat-pirate-crew-wwe-superstars?utm_source=TW-Fightful&utm_medium=Fightful Wrestling News&utm_campaign=dlvr.it

Lol :D it's so weird thinking about these huge, jacked guys sitting around watching anime, and there are quite a few wrestlers that seem to like it. Nowadays it's kind of become acceptable to admit you watch it, which is strange as like, 10 years ago it would have been like "loool you watch those weird Japanese cartoons, wtf bro" etc, basically how Krofius reacts to it, whereas now it's all over Netflix and other streaming platforms, and you've got various celebs, wrestlers, etc talking about it without shame. It's cool but strange.

Anime is general has had a weird trajectory. It became sort of cool for a while when DBZ-mania was running wild in the late-90s/early-00s, then once that was over it went back to being generally laughed at, and for whatever reason in the past few years now it's become cool to watch it again outside of Japan. Of course @eochaid and I never gave a fuck and flew our colours proudly :cool: but now it's more like "looool you've never seen Demon Slayer/Attack on Titan? Wtf bro"
 
Lol yeah, there's definitely something not quite right there with Vince mentally. I mean, this is a guy who views sneezing as a sign of weakness. I don't think I've ever heard that before. His decisions over the years have become increasingly worse, and I think a lot of the 'good' ideas that got WWE out of the doldrums in the 90s came from other sources - Russo, Cornette, etc. Vince may have been able to act as a filter, but the origin of the ideas weren't his.

Ali did a good job attempting to rescue the dumpster fire that Retribution had become, but after their first few appearances there really was no way back. This was around the same time period they had that goofy 'Raw Underground' gimmick which was just so cringey. As for Judgement Day, the turn came way too quickly. They didn't give people a chance to really care about the faction before splitting it apart. Back in the day factions were generally together for at least a year, if not longer, so that people actually cared when members changed or the faction disbanded. Hard to care about Judgement Day booting out Edge when it had only been around for, what, a couple of months? Rhea hadn't even been in it from the start.

Gold and black NXT was great. I only watched the TakeOver events, but I always looked forward to them. Just straightforward stories with solid character work and in-ring stories you could get fully invested in. Current version of NXT is just lame af. NXT unfortunately got Vinced. Would be cool if Triple H reverted all the changes now that Vinnie Mac is seemingly on borrowed time anyway.

With that said, the main issue with NXT was that it did not prepare the wrestlers there for main roster callups. Names and entire gimmicks were changed, making the idea of NXT being 'developmental' in any way redundant. It was basically its own product, and as a result callups were somewhat pointless as Vince always wanted to completely change the person being called up anyway. In that sense the current version of NXT is far more suitable - it's just that current WWE kind of sucks so now NXT does as well.


Yeah, NXT worked as a separate brand, not so much for developmental. Which to be fair is probably why I don't like it now, it's actually being used as developmental. For a few solid years it was basically just Triple H signing all the indie talent he could. Granted, it did churn out some stars. But the era where it was Adam Cole, Johnny Gargano, Ciampa, etc. hasn't done much for WWE. I'm surprised Ciampa is still there. He's floundering. Tony Khan is doing a better job of keeping that version of NXT alive than anyone else. :D

With Vince's days running the company getting closer to an end, you've gotta wonder how things will go afterwards. Will Triple H just turn NXT back into what it was, or will people like Kevin Dunn and Nick Khan stand in the way of that? Who knows? Will Triple H & Stephanie take over or will it be Nick Khan? There's a lot of possibilities there.
 
I think the earlier graduates of NXT got a little more leeway than the ones that came after them. The likes of Kevin Owens and Sami Zayn did well for themselves, without changing anything major. Finn Balor got a pretty huge push before getting injured. Enzo and Cass were treated as stars practically from day one and did well for themselves. Considering that general level of success I'm not sure why Vince decided to start fucking with the formula, but it's Vince, so there probably isn't a logical reason. It's little wonder the likes of Gargano and Ciampa tried to stay in NXT for as long as possible. They knew once they were called up it was all over.

You'd hope that the likes of Dunn would be history once Trips and Steph take over. Mox told a story in his recently released book (well worth getting the audiobook version btw, his narration is basically like an awesome 7 hour promo), basically he accidentally said "fuck" at the end of a PPV and it was caught on camera. He was called into the production truck and Dunn showed him what had happened. Mox said he apologised sincerely, Dunn shook his hand and he thought it was all good. Then later he finds out Dunn told people Mox's apology wasn't sincere and he wasn't taking it seriously. There are so many stories like this about him. The guy is almost universally hated, Vince aside, and his production choices are part of the reason WWE is so hard to watch these days. The stupid amount of camera cuts is enough to give anybody a headache.

I think Khan is in it for the long-haul, but I don't think he's gunning for the throne. I imagine he'd be happier working with Trips and Steph as they'd likely be far more reasonable and less dangerous than Vince.
 


Turning back the hands of time, but this is probably one of my favourite endings to a wrestling show ever :D Hogan, Hall and Nash show up to lay a beating on the Dungeon and the Horsemen, Heenan panics and leaves the announce booth. Then the Giant comes out seemingly to save the day but then turns heel and joins the nWo (this was long before he turned face/heel every couple of months). Savage comes into the ring and starts throwing chairshots at the nWo for a brief hope spot, but ends up outnumbered and beaten down. The Horsemen try to get back in the ring but the nWo hold them off. The nWo then head up to the announce table and boast about their dominance, but then they're interrupted by the Horsemen and the Dungeon and a total brawl breaks out. Eventually it stops and Hogan and the Giant briefly go back to the announce desk to chat more shit before just tipping it over completely, the show ending with the nWo daring the others to come back for some more as Savage is carried out by Barbarian and Meng.

You just don't see anything like this anymore. I don't think anything will come close to the original nWo invasion angle, it just felt so fresh and wild compared to anything that had come before. I think the closest we've had since then was probably when the Nexus showed up on Raw for the first time and laid waste to everything. That was also a very cool segment, but obviously we all know what happened in the end.
 
I remember watching The Giant join the nWo live. I never missed Nitro back then. Even if I had to catch it on replay at midnight, I would stay up and watch it and just be fucked the next day at school... especially when Nitro went 3 hours. Those really were the glory days. I mean, 70s and 80s wrestling is good, but I'm so biased towards that mid-late 90s era. It was just a magical time for pro wrestling. It was always exciting. Even if you don't read dirt sheets now, you can accurately guess what's going to happen most of the time. Back then, there was always something to shock and wow you.

Growing up, my parents would let me order 1 PPV a month so I had to choose between WWF and WCW. I would normally go back and forth. Cable systems in the states back then would let you put on the PPV channel even if you didn't order it. It was a scrambled screen where every 10 seconds or so you'd get a clear image for maybe a second, but the audio was clear all the way through, so you could listen to the commentary. That is how I experienced Bash at the Beach '96 live. People nowadays may think Hulk turning heel was nothing special. If you lived it at the time, you know how wrong they are. It was massive. Even just listening to commentary and hearing the crowd's reaction when Hulk leg dropped Savage... it was surreal. "What? How is this happening?!" Same thing when months before, Scott Hall walked through the crowd and started the nWo angle. It was amazing. To feel the full impact of it, I truly believe you had to be watching it at the time. So, I absolutely agree that nothing will ever touch that angle. If you were there and you lived it as a fan in that moment of time, I don't know how you could disagree.

Also, one of my favorite things ever is people shitting on Kevin Dunn. Especially Jim Cornette.
 
Well, you guys certainly had it a lot better than we did in the UK :D we simply didn't have WCW PPVs - they weren't available. You'd find out PPV results on the next Nitro, and that was pretty much the only option. It's not like that many people here had a subscription to the Observer, or even knew what it was. Not a whole lot of people on the internet at the time either - not like it is now. We also got Nitro & Raw on Fridays, rather than Mondays, so no need to worry about staying up late to watch. Spoilers weren't easy to come by at the time either, so it wasn't a big deal like it would be today.

Nitro moved to 2 hours in May 1996 I believe, but in the UK we only got a single hour cut of the show for a long time - from memory at least until the beginning of 1998. It was only when I rewatched Nitro much later that I realised I'd missed out on a lot as a kid. I can remember sometimes being confused when an angle was recapped or mentioned but it hadn't actually been shown on the broadcast. It only made sense years later when I realised we'd been screwed over :D

It's funny, but even though Hall's debut on Nitro was really cool, the actual show itself is pretty bad... pre-nWo WCW was pretty goofy. Still entertaining in its own way, but it morphed into a completely different beast once the nWo appeared. Much like with Raw, I think going to 3 hours (and adding Thunder) really accelerated WCW's demise. 3 hours is just too long for a wrestling show. 2 hours is just about right, as long as the roster is big enough. Those shows between fall 1996 and the end of 1997 are peak WCW and I can watch pretty much any episode any time and be entertained. Once the shows start hitting 3 hours, though, it becomes more of a slog. Doesn't help of course that the creative direction was starting to fail at around the same time.

In terms of years/periods I have bias for, I'd say 1995 to mid-1998 WCW, 1998 - mid-2001 WWE, 2005-2009 TNA, mid-2016 to mid-2017 WWE (mainly Smackdown and NXT) and the first few years of AEW will probably fall into that category too.

A few years ago when Raw was on Monday, NWA Powerrr was on Tuesday, AEW/NXT was on Wednesday and Smackdown was on Friday that was a good time. It didn't last for too long and Raw/Smackdown tended to be the weak links, but it was pretty cool.
 
I didn't know you guys got so screwed over there. Pretty lame that you didn't get the full Nitro experience. But at least you can go back and watch them in full now. Do you still get to enjoy the network? We have to get it through Peacock over here which is a clusterfuck. It's so bad.
 
Yeah fortunately we still have the old version of the Network here, although I've actually downloaded all of the Nitro shows & WCW PPVs from 1995 - 1998 just in case the Network is discontinued or altered here at some point :D everything else I can give or take, but I want that stuff for the future regardless.

Can you get back to the older version of the Network via VPN? I know when it first started up I signed up with a fake US address and used a VPN to access, as it took something like 4 or 5 months to come to the UK after launch and was technically more expensive when currency conversion was taken into account.
 
I thought about going the VPN route, but apparently you need to sign up for a completely new account. Which I guess isn't that big of a deal. But I have heard that if they find out (which seems to be happening frequently) they'll immediately cancel the account. So instead I just use that VPN and torrent the shit.
 
I have to say, as much as WWE drops the ball most of the time these days, the non-US version of the Network is really cool. I mean, having practically every WCW, WWE and ECW show available to watch whenever and whenever you want is awesome. I couldn't even have imagined such a thing would exist even ten years ago. Peacock coming along and fucking it up really sucks. I do wonder how long they'll keep the international version of the Network going. If WWE does eventually get bought out by another company I can see it being radically altered across all markets.
 
Yeah, I loved the network. It was easy to browse and had everything. Peacock is a stripped down version. And because they have a cheaper membership plan, everything basically has commercial cuts. You'll be watching an interview, Broken Skull Sessions for example, and it will randomly fade out and fade back in so they can slip ads in for the people who don't pay for premium. And then of course there's the issue of it being difficult to locate certain things. Instead of watching the June 5, 1996 episode of Nitro, you're trying to find the season 2, episode 25 Nitro. It's just annoying. The format, the layout, it all sucks.
 
In some ways it's typical WWE though, start off with something really good and then downgrade it into something worse :D you wouldn't expect anything else.
 
I decided to watch a Smackdown Live from 2016 (August 2nd, 2016) to see if it was as good as I remember, or whether it was more nostalgic memories of the time. As it turns out, yeah, this show was awesome for its time. The roster on SD Live during this time period was incredible. Shane McMahon and Daniel Bryan as authority figures. Mauro Ranello on commentary. A performing roster including Dean Ambrose, Randy Orton, The Miz, AJ Styles, John Cena, American Alpha, Becky Lynch and Bray Wyatt. They somehow even make the likes of Dolph Ziggler and Baron Corbin entertaining. The show itself is really solid, all the way through. The writing is streets ahead of anything WWE had done in years and has done since.

It's funny to watch a lot of this now, knowing where certain performers ended up. It goes without saying Corbin has gone through some drastic changes. They actually do some great character building work with Ziggler in this period, with Ambrose trying to get into Ziggler's head about him not having what it takes and pointing to his recent history of getting nowhere. Wyatt then appears and makes a challenge for Dolph's #1 contender's spot for the title. In WWE nowadays the match would just happen with no further enhancement, but here they give actual logic as to why Ziggler would accept this challenge. Bryan even points out that he has nothing to gain from accepting the challenge, but Ziggler is incensed by what Ambrose has said and wants to prove he deserves his shot. It's simple but little things like this make stories stronger and tie them together. Yes it's still dumb babyface logic, but at least there is some logic explained to the audience.

Corbin/Crews/Kalisto is a weird triple threat in terms of clashing styles, but actually pretty fun to watch and doesn't outstay its welcome, finishing within a few minutes. You can tell WWE were very high on Apollo at this point. A shame he never really got anywhere.

It's strange seeing pre "The Man" Becky Lynch. She's just a generic smiling babyface, pretty much. Still mildly over but nothing compared to what she's become today. They are doing an angle where Eva Marie makes a big entrance and then feigns injury not to wrestle. It's fun and she has genuine heat from the crowd. Another story that from memory didn't really come to a proper conclusion though.

American Alpha have their debut on this episode - how did WWE drop the ball on these guys? They were so good in NXT and are immediately over with the crowd. They're facing the Vaudvillains who are... well, they're OK, but one of those instances where you can tell the act isn't going to work on the main roster. Aidan English obviously went on to reinvent himself with the Rusev Day thing for a bit, whilst Simon Gotch is most famous for that YouTube video where he shits on Enzo.

The AJ Styles and John Cena feud from this time was great. By this point Cena is in his latter years as a regular active performer, but is still a regular, and getting plenty of boos. "Soccer mom hair" chant from the crowd to AJ is pretty funny :D it's crazy really how AJ has had such a solid run in WWE. Considering his smaller stature, southern accent and TNA heritage you'd think Vince would have buried the guy, but I guess it speaks to how amazing Styles is that he broke through all of that and became one of WWE's prime assets. Anyway, it's a fun promo and these two always had good chemistry together.

Breezango, I'd forgotten about these guys. The Fashion Files were fantastic, although from memory a bit further ahead on the timeline. Lesnar shows up during the Orton/Fandango match and gives Orton an F5 as a receipt for the RKO Orton gave him on Raw. About 50 security staff make him leave. Simple but effective.

Heath Slater trying to get a contract after not being drafted was a fun storyline too. They were giving everyone something interesting to work with. Nobody on this show feels lost in the shuffle.

Ziggler/Wyatt main event is solid, with Rowan showing up at the end.

Overall yeah, I very much enjoyed watching this show. The only downside was a major lack of actual wrestling - I'm not sure there were even 30 minutes of wrestling across the entire hour and a half. Most of it came in the main event, with the other three matches barely going a couple of minutes each. I would imagine this varies from week to week though, as I don't remember Smackdown lacking good matches during this period. The focus is clearly on establishing storylines for all of the characters post-brand split though, and they do a great job of that.
 
A few things stand out.

I actually started liking Cena in his later years. When he was shoved down our throats every week, I really wasn't a fan. Although I did meet him at Wrestlemania and he was an incredibly nice human being.

Orton/Lesnar... that must be right around the time they faced off at Summerslam. Which would be the event where Lesnar was elbowing Orton in the head for real and got in a backstage confrontation with Jericho after the match.

Ziggler/Wyatt main eventing is interesting. It looks they're about to start pushing Ziggler again, which would be like the 25th attempt. And I wonder if Wyatt will come back at some point. He's still the most surprising release to me in the last few years.

There are periods of time in recent years that are good. They just don't seem to last long. They just love fucking it up.