Let's talk wrasslin'

[The Grayfox]

I think Tony Khan is in over his head honestly. I don't think he's equipped to handle shit like this. He probably needs an inner circle like Vince had back in the day with Patterson, Prichard, etc. People who know the wrestling business and handle shit like this when it comes up. Maybe he already has that, who knows? Most reports say that Hangman caused the issues to begin with but that Punk should've handled it behind the scenes. I'm sure it will get turned into an angle. Another report I read said that there are a lot of angles/feuds between people who legitimately dislike each other. I guess that's one way to do it.

 

[DE4life]

Just finished watching Clash at the Castle. I don't normally get to watch wrestling PPVs live due to the timezones, so it's always nice when they're on at a normal time for the UK. Overall thoughts, a really great show until the end...

Women's six person tag - went on at least 5 minutes too long. It wasn't bad but it was too long. The crowd interaction with Bayley was fun.

Gunther Vs Sheamus - exactly what you'd expect from these two, hard hitting and brutal as fuck. Very enjoyable. The reuniting of Imperium was a cool moment too.

Liv Vs Shayna - I just don't buy Liv as champion. The match was OK but it's difficult for me to care about Liv as champ.

Rey & Edge Vs Finn & Priest - Rey & Edge were over big, as expected. Match was solid, but not sure about Judgemen Day taking the loss. Difficult to build new stars when they always lose to the 'legends', it's been an issue in WWE for over a decade and continues to happen despite the change in leadership. With that said the major talking point was Dominic Mysterio's heel turn, which has been a long time coming. It was executed well and it doesn't look like Dom is immediately joining Judgement Day either, which adds another layer of intrigue. Easily the most interesting thing Dom has done so far. Cole's random burn on the Yankees was pretty funny, even though as a Brit I didn't completely get it.

Seth Rollins Vs Matt Riddle - nice to see that Riddle has his first name back, as does Austin Theory. Great match here, with a smart finish leaning into the character traits of each wrestler. Good stuff.

Roman Reigns Vs Drew McIntyre - Great match. Theory coming out with the briefcase only to get sucker punched by Fury made me laugh out loud. The ending though... I'm so over this bullshit. A new Uso interferes to cost Roman's opponent the match. How original. Roman's holding the title until Mania, isn't he? If the Rock is the one to put an end to this... well, it'd just highlight everything wrong with the company. As for the Tyson Fury/McIntyre singalong at the end of the broadcast... lmao, what the fuck was that? It was like they forgot to end the PPV at the correct time and kept rolling for the off-camera aftershow silliness. That was seriously bizarre.

 

[The Grayfox]

That ending was bullshit. Drew deserved to get his moment after getting fucked at WM36. I don't know why they're continuing this. It's gotten so stale and boring. At least split the titles so we can have one interesting world title picture. Overall, it was a great show but that ending killed it for me.

 

[The Grayfox]

By the way, you catch that dude's Chris Benoit shirt in the front row? Oof, somebody got fired for showing that.

 

[DE4life]

That ending was bullshit. Drew deserved to get his moment after getting fucked at WM36. I don't know why they're continuing this. It's gotten so stale and boring. At least split the titles so we can have one interesting world title picture. Overall, it was a great show but that ending killed it for me.

Us Brits enjoy a singalong, and it's obviously Tyson Fury's gimmick to sing after his fights... but he wins his fights Drew singing and joking around 5 minutes after he was cheated out of winning the title just made it look like he didn't give a shit. As many redditors have said, he basically got Lex Luger'd. I couldn't believe what I was watching. Way to fucking destroy the guy's credibility. The crowd clearly weren't even into it, so it doesn't even fall into the category of sending the fans home happy. As for him winning the undisputed titles... we all know that ain't happening. If they weren't going to put him over here, he isn't going over for as long as Roman is champ - which is likely until WrestleMania. God, another 6 months of the Bloodline assisting Roman to victories... not sure I can be bothered with that. Not sure how WWE even make another 6 months of that interesting. It's obvious that every challenger going forward has no chance of winning until Roman's WM opponent (either Rock or Cody) is announced, so honestly, what's the point? Might as well give Roman and the world titles a 4 month vacation until the Rumble wraps up.

By the way, you catch that dude's Chris Benoit shirt in the front row? Oof, somebody got fired for showing that.

I didn't catch it live as I stopped paying attention when the singalong started, but I saw it being brought up on reddit afterwards. Yikes. I assume that will be swiftly edited out of the Network version.

 

[The Grayfox]

The Lex Luger comparison's are unfortunately too accurate. At least in that scenario, Luger won by DQ, which is... something.

I'm confused on what the plan is for the titles. If the rumors are true about The Rock, it doesn't make any sense to have that be a title match. The Rock isn't going to win the title on a one-off. And he's way too busy to have even a limited run in WWE. So if they do that, the ending of that match becomes even more predictable. It really doesn't need to be a title match. I would assume they want to use it as an opportunity to have Rock pass the torch to Roman because, well... Roman has to look strong. I had hoped with Vince being gone now, they would move away from the part timers holding titles hostage. It's just stupid. Split the titles, let each show have a champion that could benefit from being champion. Nobody is getting any benefit from Reigns having both belts. The dude is already established, he only does TVs now and not even every PPV. Its like having Lesnar as champion all over again.

 

[DE4life]

Remember when Hogan had held the belt for what seemed like decades in 1997 then out of nowhere Luger took the title from him on the 1000th episode of Nitro? The reaction from the crowd that night is still talked about to this day. Yes Hogan won back the title 6 days later, but people remember that awesome moment on Nitro nonetheless, and it didn't hurt the Hogan/Sting build at all.

WWE had a chance to create a moment like that last night. Drew will never be more over with a crowd than he was at Clash at the Castle. The roof would have blown off the place if he'd won. It would be the kind of reaction that would go down in the history books as one of the all time great moments in wrestling. WWE had a chance to do that and they didn't pull the trigger, just because they've got themselves tangled up in this idea that Roman's entire worth as a draw is built around him being unable to lose. It's a fallacy but I think they genuinely do believe it. It's still 7 months until wrestlemania, and lolromanwins has already been stale as a concept for months now.

I would have booked the match as basically being the same, up until Theory came out. I'd still have that happen, but rather than Fury get involved, have Sheamus come down to get involved. He was already a babyface as far as the crowd are concerned, and his history with McIntyre includes a mutual respect going back decades. Sheamus comes out to stop Theory from cashing in, they get into a fight and end up on the apron. Roman gets distracted and hits the pair of them with a double superman punch - then turns around and eats a Claymore from Drew. The title changes hands, the crowd go crazy, Fury can come in and have his singalong with the new champ. Meanwhile Roman has a legitimate out for dropping the belt.

Going forward a whole host of potential storyline paths are opened. The Bloodline and the Brawling Brutes getting into it. Theory having beef with both factions. Does Drew help out the Brawling Brutes or stay as a lone wolf? Do Imperium form an uneasy alliance with the Bloodline to further their feud with the Brutes?

Roman can get back the title long before Mania, and in between there is a ton of entertaining storylines to explore.

As it stands, we're just looking at another 6 months of Roman cutting promos about being in God mode whilst the Bloodline helps him beat lame duck opponents. Drew should have won.

 

[DE4life]

So I watched All Out and thought it was an enjoyable show.

Unfortunately AEW appears to be imploding in the aftermath, however. Punk shits on Colt Cabana, Nick and Matt Jackson, Omega and Hangman in the media scrum. Not working heat either, just straight up buried them as childish idiots who have no idea what they're doing.

Then apparently Punk and Ace Steel get into a 'melee' with the Bucks backstage. Can't see how Khan resolves this one honestly. In retrospect he should probably have paid Cody what he wanted and never signed CM Punk.

Not sure how much interest I'd have in AEW if the Elite walked, honestly. It's becoming more and more like a far less structured WWE mid-carder federation at this point. Still some good people there but I can see a number of them departing soon if the Elite are fired or forced to leave.

Huge issues for Khan to address. Oh yeah and MJF returned...

 

[The Grayfox]

As a CM Punk fan, I can say that I am becoming less so every day. He’s showing what an immature asshole he really is. The media scrum was a clusterfuck. The dude was burying Cabana, The Bucks and Hangman any chance he got, even ignoring questions and putting the focus back on why he’s so angry. It was embarrassing. There’s video of him showing that he brought it up in the first place. He was looking to go out there and start shit. Which he very clearly did.

The problem is, Tony Khan has shown that he values Punk over everyone else. I can see him letting the Elite go in favor of keeping Punk, which would be a massive mistake because with HHH in charge of WWE, there’s a much better chance those guys could end up there. Punk is at the tail end of his career and won’t be viable much longer. Somebody needs to get their shit together because AEW is turning into a circus. Say what you want about Vince McMahon, if he was the one sitting next to Punk, that would’ve never happened. Tony Khan should establish himself as the owner of the company instead of as a fanboy who is just excited to have CM Punk part of the roster. It’s fucking bush league.

 

[DE4life]

Completely agree. I couldn't believe what I was hearing when watching that media scrum. Tony looked so uncomfortable and clearly had no idea how to deal with how Punk was behaving. It was so unbelievably petulant and childish. Punk was literally refusing to let Tony talk, his fucking boss. As you say, if that was Vince sitting there then that shit would have been shut down immediately, and if Punk had dared interrupt Vince he would have been fucking gone. Tony has lost control of the situation as far as the locker room is concerned, that much is obvious. Punk has majorly poisoned the well and unless he's removed it's obvious he's going to continue to do so.

I wasn't really watching WWE during Punk's rise to prominence, and I didn't see his indie stuff back in the 2000s either. So whilst I know and have watched plenty of his stuff from a historical perspective, I wasn't watching when it was actually happening. I didn't really have much of an opinion when he came in, other than it's cool that a big name has arrived. Tony said during the media scrum "I have to do what's best for the company", but let's see if he means it - because right now the best thing to do for the company is to remove CM Punk from the equation. Sorry to say but he is poison, and long-term I'm convinced they are better off without him. Omega, the Elite and Hangman are the heartbeat of AEW, and if they go then I see nothing but bad things coming from that.

This is frankly the worst possible time for AEW to be mired in controversy and infighting. WWE is a sleeping beast that's finally waking up now that Vince is gone. Triple H has a lot of supporters within AEW, and there will be a lot of wrestlers casting an eye to WWE now that he's in charge. Even more so with AEW being in a state of utter chaos backstage. It's one thing for Tony to talk about wrestlers not liking each other and it making for good television, it's another for the situation to be so out of control that morale completely tanks. AEW's originals are seeing the company they built get torn apart by civil wars instigated by people who had nothing to do with creating the company's foundations, whilst the relatively newer guys are going to be wondering what the fuck is going on and realising WWE's structure actually made a lot more sense than they thought.

It's really sad to see, especially considering how before Punk AEW was going in a sharply upwards trajectory. I stand by my view that, in hindsight, he should never have been signed. Short-term needle moving and PPV buyrates mean nothing if there is significant long-term damage being caused by locker room division, as WCW found out. Say what you want about Cody but he had the respect of everybody in AEW and was a key part of what made AEW what it is today. He says he came back to WWE to win the belt his father never could, and I'm sure that's part of it, but the biggest reason is simply that Tony Khan didn't value him enough and didn't appreciate his worth. Yes Cody was a pain in the ass and the Codyverse stuff had gotten way out of sync with the rest of the show towards the end, but I'd take Cody and his peculiarities over CM Punk and his shitty attitude any day.

 

[The Grayfox]

Punk was basically just throwing a tantrum. It seems very clear that Punk is trying to take over and run AEW. And Tony Khan is just letting him get away with it. If someone like, say, Dante Martin pulled this shit, he would be gone. No hesitation, just flat out fired. AEW does not need CM Punk, even though Tony seems to believe they do. They were doing just fine without him and would do just fine without him again.

Punk's rise in WWE worked because he was somewhat restrained. They let him go and do the worked shoot promo which really got him over, but I'm sure Vince had his hands in the whole thing. The difference being that here, Tony Khan seems to just be letting him do whatever he wants. Having a locker room full of unrest really isn't going to do good things for your company. Like you said, civil war. AEW was originally the place everyone wanted to go because it was said to be relaxed, people had creative freedom, it was a fun place to work. It doesn't sound like a fun place to work right now. This situation isn't going to make people want to come work there. It's going to push people to leave and go (or go back) to WWE or elsewhere. You know guys like Adam Cole, Malakai, Andrade, etc. would go back to WWE now. I don't think Adam Cole would've even left had he known Triple H would take over. Same with Malakai. This "promised land" is turning into a wasteland pretty quick.

 

[DE4life]

I think the other problem is that people going to AEW are realising the lack of structure and purpose is doing nothing to help them. Malakai Black - comes in with huge fanfare, has done what since he arrived? House of Black is a fine idea but what have they achieved? What memorable moments has Black had after his Cody feud?

Andrade - what memorable moments has he really had? How is Miro still in the midcard? Why is Danielson not the face of the company? So many big names brought in with hype, but then nothing of substance. For a while AEW basically relied on shocking debuts every other week, but now the roster is so bloated that even the bigger names struggle to be relevent, let alone the lesser-known AEW originals.

 

[The Grayfox]

Yeah, Malakai… I dunno how you drop the ball with him. I was unbelievably surprised that WWE released him in the first place. Then I thought “ok, maybe AEW will fix this.” House of Black is cool but it’s just a midcard faction that isn’t doing anything. Which is insane because of the talent involved. Brody King is a modern day Stan Hansen and Buddy Matthews is probably one of the best ring workers around. I’m such a huge fan of all three guys and they’re just floundering like almost everyone else. I hoped they would win the trios tournament but instead they gave it to The Elite. Omega and the Bucks don’t need titles to be over. The titles could’ve been used to elevate somebody else.

I think what it all comes down to is that AEW is being run by a fan. A fan who is in way over his head. He just signed all of this talent and doesn’t know what to do with them. Now you’ve got guys requesting their release and Tony not doing it. One of the things I learned about Vince through Bruce’s podcast was that his mentality was always “if you don’t want to be here, I don’t want you here” with the idea being that if somebody is so miserable they want to be released, they’re bringing nothing positive to the locker room, so they should go. Tony is doing the opposite. He’s holding people hostage (MJF for one) because he doesn’t want them working somewhere else. It’s just a bad look in my opinion.

We’ll see how this shakes out. The locker room sounds divided over the whole thing. Reports today say that people will be completely shocked if Punk isn’t released over this but I think they’re forgetting how infatuated Tony Khan is with CM Punk. Reports today also say that people have been suspended over the incident. I assume Ace Steel is one of them. If Tony isn’t planning on firing Punk, he’s certainly not going to fire Ace Steel because if he does, Punk will just leave.

What a fucking disaster.

 

[DE4life]

The only potential mitigating factor in Malakai's usage is that he does apparently have quite a nasty back injury which has been causing him problems for a while, alongside some mental health issues which may or may not be related to said injury. By the sounds of it he's going to be taking some time away from AEW regardless, so I hope he heals up and gets better. AEW's biggest issue is that almost everybody is floundering in largely meaningless feuds because the roster is simply too large. They're trying to rotate people in and out constantly, and it leads to a lack of cohesion when it comes to week-to-week storytelling. There is some good stuff going on - Jungle Boy and Christian has been a really solid feud so far. Julia Hart joining the House of Black was well told (but what was the point, really?), Wheeler Yuta was elevated in an excellent way, Starks and Hobbs was decent (what was up with Starks being squashed at All Out though?), they've obviously done a good job with Hook, Jade Cargill has been booked well, the Daniel Garcia/JES stuff is good, the rise of The Acclaimed has been great. But, then, look at the sheer amount of top talent that is fucking floundering, doing nothing...

Hangman - what happened here? Why is he slumming around with the Dark Order after being the fucking champion, the culmination of a multi-year storyline? It'd be like Stone Cold teaming up with Too Cool after losing the WWE title. Just pointless.

Penta and Rey Fenix - spinning their wheels for months now, if not years

Santana and Ortiz - as above... I'm not sure they've even held the tag titles? Which is ridiculous

Andrade - in no man's land

Miro - just returned, but as above. I know he's just returned, but could he not have been plugged into something more important than a random six man with the House of Black and Sting/Darby? Speaking of which...

Darby Allin - What do they even want to do with him? Is he just going to do random matches with Sting for the rest of his tenure?

Orange Cassidy - loses a lot nowadays, and alongside the Best Friends completely directionless

Wardlow - his big moment was overshadowed by the work/shoot MJF nonsense, and since then he's pretty much just been doing nothing of any real note

Ethan Page - this guy has all the tools, should be utilised much better. What happened to America's Top Team anyway? is that just scrapped now?

Ricky Starks - feels like he's been criminally underutilised. This guy is a star

I could go on, but simply put... there are far too many very talented people on the roster that have little hope of doing anything worthwhile as there simply isn't enough time to squeeze them all in.

Oh, another two things I'll add to AEW's problems...

1) the number of titles. It's utterly ridiculous. Practically everyone seems to have a belt, whether it be one recently created, other company's belts, an ROH belt, made up belts like the Team Taz one... if everyone has a title then no titles are special. There are far too many.

2) The integration of ROH has seriously hurt AEW as a program, and I even think NJPW to a lesser extent has had a longer-term detrimental impact. There are too many random wrestlers turning up to do brief matches or feuds, then disappearing again.

 

[The Grayfox]

AEW and ROH should just be kept separate. You’ve already got a bloated roster and now you want to bring in even more. Cesaro holding the world title yet being treated as an AEW guy. Like, who the fuck thinks this is a good idea?

Andrade - I would be VERY surprised if he doesn't go back to WWE when his contract is up. Charlotte is there and from what I recall, he had a good relationship with Triple H.

Darby - I assume that when Sting is ready to be done, Darby will turn on him and start a heel run. Or vice versa and Darby will beat Sting before venturing off on a solo run.

I would cut down AEW's roster by a good 40-50%. That seems like a lot, but they just don't have the TV time to give all of these people a run. As you said, Wardlow got overshadowed by MJF, which makes what just happened to MJF more than ironic. MJF is money though. When he eventually goes to WWE, he will be their top heel someday.

What's up with the names of their titles too? TNT and TBS championships? Those have no lasting power. Especially if AEW ever changes networks. The amount of titles they have would be fine if they had two brands.

The only thing keeping AEW from being the next Impact is the amount of money the Khans have.

 

[The Grayfox]

Looks like everyone involved, including people who were reportedly trying to break it up have been suspended until the investigation is done. It's being heavily implied that Punk is gone or will be gone from AEW very soon, but who knows. It's also being said that he has a very serious tricep injury coming out of All Out. Dude's body obviously isn't holding up.

 

[Jester Slave]

I pretty much only listen to the Cornette podcasts + reading squared circle, so those are my only sources, though they work with numerous other sources, so at the end of the day I'm up to date with the events and both sides' views on them, and based on that, I think every (literal and figurative) punch went to the right places - or however the fuck this saying goes in English. Omega and the Bucks are tiring me with their shenanigans, but Punk's narcissism is just too much.

I just hope MJF is going places eventually.

 

[The Grayfox]

MJF is fucking money. That dude is going to be a big, big star someday I think. Especially if he goes to WWE. He'd have to tone down the things he says there, but he's just a straight up old school heel and he does it very well. Even though you're supposed to hate him, you just can't help like the guy. He's so passionate.

I don't listen to Cornette because he annoys the shit out of me, but I browse r/squaredcircle pretty much every day. I'm with you on both Omega/Bucks and Punk. They're all pretty annoying. Omega is a great wrestler though, so he's got that going for him I guess. He just comes across much like Jericho -- as an asshole. But not in the good 'wrestling asshole' sort of way. More in the "I'm an asshole outside of the ring" kind of way. But that's just my perception. Jericho actually is an asshole out of the ring. Met him several times and seen the way he interacts with people. He's not a nice guy. I assume Punk isn't either although admittedly I am a fan of his.

 

[DE4life]

MJF is indeed an amazing heel, and blurs the lines between reality and kayfabe better than anybody has done in decades. More importantly, he does it within the framework of the stories being told, rather than just throwing out random shoot comments that have no purpose other than burying other talent or taking shots at WWE. There's a groundswell of support for him becoming a face, but for the time being I think he needs to remain as a heel. The time will come for him to turn face at some point, but literally all they have to do is have him stop taking digs at the fans and turn his ire to the heels. Otherwise you can keep his character the same and people will cheer for him, as evidenced recently.

Punk apparently got injured during the Moxley match, torn triceps reportedly, which Meltzer said is likely an 8 month layoff. I think Punk needs to accept his body isn't cut out for a proper wrestling schedule anymore. AEW won't be able to rely on him going forward in any kind of major position, which massively limits his value to the company. Truthfully though I don't expect he'll be back. Even if Khan doesn't fire him, he isn't well-liked amongst AEW's locker room and him coming back would be really awkward at this point. It's best for all parties if ties are severed, as sadly it just hasn't worked out. Punk's ego and his injury proneness are two huge negatives which likely can't be overcome. It sucks but sometimes you just have to admit something isn't going to work and move on.

 

[The Grayfox]

I imagine there's a bunch of relief in the locker room with Punk out for the better part of a year. That will change when it gets closer to him coming back. A lot of people have said how difficult of a human being he is. Even his own friends. When that is your reputation, and even your own friends say it, it's probably true. I can't remember who it was, but somebody who was friends with him in the past once said something like "when you're friends with him, you're constantly walking on egg shells wondering if you're going to do something to upset him." Doesn't sound pleasant. I've seen that mentioned before too, him cutting off contact with friends or downright cutting ties completely over trivial things that pissed him off and the other person didn't know they even did anything.