Let's talk wrasslin'

[DE4life]

It is kind of difficult to get into a match when the outcome is so obvious. I can tolerate it when the underlying storyline is as good and multifaceted as the Bloodline storyline has been, but in general WWE are often far too predictable with their outcomes. Even worse, their attempts to be unpredictable just come off as Russo-style swerving for the sake of it, rather than because there's a long-term plan in place.

They seem quite set in stone on Roman/Cody being the match for WM, and reports suggest Hunter doesn't see Sami as 'face of the company' material. My expectation is that Sami is cheated out of the match at Elimination Chamber, likely with Jey turning on him, at which point he and KO will be primed to take the tag belts from the Usos at WM. It's not necessarily what I would do, but that seems like the most logical thing to do if they don't want Roman Vs Sami at WM.

The world belts absolutely need to be split apart again (or unified into one with the champ on both shows). Not really sure how they're going to get there at the moment, but my assumption is that it happens after WM.

 

[The Grayfox]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking too in regards to Jey. There's no way they're going to split Jimmy and Jey up into singles. I think they're going to tease Jey's loyalty in the weeks leading up to Elimination Chamber with him ultimately screwing Sami.

I saw a more up-to-date rumored Wrestlemania card which is as follows:

Roman vs. Cody
Charlotte vs. Rhea
Cena vs. Theory
Damage CTRL vs. Ronda/Shayna
Usos vs. KO/Sami
Bianca vs. EC winner
Gunther vs. Sheamus vs. Drew
Edge vs. Balor
Rey vs. Dom
Lesnar vs. Lashley
Rollins vs. Logan Paul

Judging from what we've seen, it certainly seems like the build up is leading to these. Except maybe Cena vs. Theory, which is being speculated will be an open challenge at the show due to Cena not being available for the lead up. Also, obviously Bray is going to have a match as well. Hopefully not another Pepsi sponsored one.

 

[DE4life]

So, Elimination Chamber...

Women's Chamber Match - okay, nothing special. Asuka going over makes sense.

Lesnar vs Lashley - DQ finish was lame af. Brock wrecking shit afterwards was fun, but it's not like we haven't seen that multiple times before.

Men's Chamber Match - good, Logan Paul going heel is the correct thing to do as the fans clearly want to boo him.

Edge & Beth vs Rhea & Finn - Fine, I guess? I'm not really into the Judgement Day as a faction so it was hard to care that much either way.

Sami Vs Roman - Entrances, awesome. Big fight feel. Match, very well done, edge of your seat stuff. Finish, probably the weakest finish they could have gone with. I knew they wouldn't put the title on Sami because they seemingly don't want incredible spontaneous moments like that to happen anymore, but they could have at least had Jey turn to add some spice to the ending. Instead it feels like Zayn spearing Jey will just lead to that tired old wrestling trope where a wrestler gets mad over something which was blatantly accidental and starts a feud from that. Really disappointing if they go down that route. After all the hype and excitement, it ended up being a typical screwy Bloodline finish, and Owens coming out afterwards didn't really change how I felt about anything.

You keep hoping WWE will change, but even with Triple H in charge they still ultimately fall back into the same boring routines. It's a shame, too, as this had the potential to be one of the all-time great moments if they'd been brave and had Sami win. You could have still given Roman the titles back on Smackdown or something, and it's not like it'd destroy WM plans. Luger won the title from Hogan a couple of months before Starrcade '97 - awesome moment and Hogan dropping and then regaining the title didn't diminish the Starrcade main event at all (although the match itself obviously did).

Idk, feels like this was the peak as far as the Bloodline storyline goes and they kind of blew it right at the finishing line.

 

[The Grayfox]

The fact that Roman still has both titles tells me that Vince is still somewhat in control. That’s just my opinion, but when HHH took over, I thought that would be the first thing that changed. He doesn’t strike me as the guy who wants the titles locked up by someone who only wrestles once a month (if that). Lesnar might as well still be champion. One would hope that changes after Mania, but I can also see Roman walking out as champ, which will leave people scratching their heads.

For a second, I almost believed Sami could win but it sunk in pretty quick that he wasn’t going to. I thought for sure Jey was going to cost him the match. KO coming out at the end was kind of pointless. Why didn’t he come out when Jimmy was attacking Sami? He waits until the match is over when the damage is done. Storyline perspective here. Doesn’t really make sense.

I agree about the Bloodline storyline. It’s probably the best thing they’ve done in years and they really dropped the ball with it at the end. It’s the same thing they did with Bryan back in the day. They picked it back up and ended up giving Bryan the title months later. But when he beat Cena at Summerslam and they did the immediate screwjob with Orton coming out and HHH turning heel, it was clearly supposed to be the end of it. The only thing that saved it was the crowd never stopped getting behind Bryan so they had no choice. If Sami and KO win the tag titles at Mania, which I think they will, it just pushes Sami down into the tag division and he may never get that main event chance again. Still, he’s probably happy he got his moment to main event in Montreal.

One would also assume that Mania will be the implosion of the Bloodline with them all losing the titles, etc. but WWE can fuck up anything, so…

 

[DE4life]

Honestly, if this is the way it was going to go, I wouldn't even have booked Sami and Roman at Elimination Chamber to begin with. If you're not going to have Sami win then, regardless of what you do, it's going to be a massive let down. I mean, at least he wasn't singing at the end like Drew McIntyre, but I'm not sure I've ever seen an audience deflate so rapidly. That shitty finish sucked the life out of the entire crowd.

It would have been better to have the beatdown at the Rumble be so bad that it put Sami on the shelf in storyline. Have him make the hero's return in Montreal at EC to cost Reigns some kind of match, maybe a non-title bout or something, and promise to ensure that Roman will lose the belts and the Bloodline at WM. Sets up Sami as being some kind of vigilante, alongside KO perhaps, to even up the odds for Cody against the Bloodline. Then after WM there are a ton of possibilities involving Sami chasing the title or furthering a feud with a dethroned Roman.

The way they've done it here... In my view, one of the least creative and interesting options available.

 

[The Grayfox]

If I had my choice, the belts would've been split so that Sami could win one and Cody could win the other. I don't think Cody's story should be slept on. It's pretty remarkable. Here's a guy who came in as "Dusty's kid", ended up with a shitty gimmick like Stardust, left, made a huge name for himself, helped start a new company, came back and is now doing it on his own terms and headlining Mania. It's pretty crazy.

I assume that Cody will win and the next night he'll cut a promo about how each brand should have their own belt and he'll debut at least one new one for himself. And if it's the winged eagle, I will probably shed a tear. Sami's story makes sense, even if I don't agree with how they got here. Now there's tension between Sami and KO leading up to Mania and in the coming weeks we'll see them be at odds, only to team and win the belts and then one of them (probably KO) will turn on the other down the line. That works, I just think they missed a good opportunity for the underdog babyface carrying the title.

 

[DE4life]

Honestly the tag belts just feel like a consolation prize for Sami at this point. I know him winning the title wasn't the set in stone story, but part of what I used to love about wrestling was that sometimes the crowd reaction could change something that seemed obvious into something more interesting and unpredictable. Even if Sami wins one of the world straps at some point in the future it will never be as hot as it would have been at EC. It's an incredible moment lost. Cody's story is great, too, but that has only just begun, whilst Sami's was 10 months in the making.

I get why they didn't pull the trigger, and why they didn't pivot, but for me if you don't want to give Sami the belt you just don't put him in that match at EC. You don't do that promo with Cody on the Raw beforehand. It's too unsatisfying to have all of that end with a tag title reign - for me, at least.

 

[The Grayfox]

Yeah, I hear ya. And I think the crowd in Montreal was in the same boat. That crowd was fucking DEFLATED when Sami lost. This is part of the reason why keeping the belts on Roman for this long was a mistake. This isn't the 1970s. It just doesn't work anymore. Back then, there were no PPVs. The champion could lose the title at any time. They've bred it into us that this kind of run doesn't end anywhere but Wrestlemania. And as you said, the problem there is that why should I get invested in these main events when it's become so clear that "yay Roman wins!"? It's also why I think Vince is still pulling the strings. Triple H has said multiple times in the past that he isn't a fan of part-time champions. And that's what Roman is now and has been for the better part of the last year. It's no different than when Brock had it. Unless Triple H is just seeing the Cody story through and that's all. Who knows?

It's just a frustrating situation when you can't suspend disbelief and actually believe that the world title can change hands at any given moment. I'm really looking forward to seeing that change. Hopefully it does.

 

[The Grayfox]

Do you watch Mania live over there or do you just stream it later?

 

[DE4life]

Typically I watch it the day after - I'm never in a position where I can sleep until like, midday the following day, so watching it live is pretty much out of the question as it usually finishes at like 4am (even worse when it's a two night event). I just have to be really careful avoiding spoilers!

 

[The Grayfox]

Yeah, that's a pain in the ass. Hopefully the UK gets a WM some day. I should've gone this year, as it's in the same state that I'm in. I went to WM19 in Seattle and even then as a kid, I was fucking exhausted after 4 days of non-stop wrestling stuff. Up until last year, I was able to say that I witnessed Steve Austin's last match and then he went and fucked it up.

This year's card is somewhat interesting. It more or less turned out to be what it's been rumored to be for a few months. I read earlier that Cena vs. Theory will open night one. Not sure how that's going to go. I expect a very quick match since Cena probably hasn't had time to prep for much. I think what I'm most interested in at this point is if Charlotte/Rhea will headline night one or if they'll go the route they should go and put Sami/KO vs. The Usos on last. I think they're making a mistake if it isn't the tag match. That crowd is going to be done after that one.

 

[DE4life]

I would have loved to have gone to a WM back when I was a kid/teenager. Honestly I probably wouldn't go to a WM nowadays even if it was in the UK, as I wouldn't pay the ridiculous ticket prices, but it would be nice to have the event available to watch at a decent time for once. As morally abhorrent as the Saudi shows are, the one positive is that they come on at a reasonable time here (about 5PM).

I have to say I dislike the two night WM format. It's too much for me, and tends to mean we get a bunch of Raw/Smackdown level filler matches thrown into what should be an event focused on top-tier storylines coming to a close. In terms of what's currently announced...

Theory Vs Cena - I'm not sure how much I care about this one. Theory will win but do I really care? Probably not.

Seth Rollins Vs Logan Paul - I have high hopes for this one. Seth is the modern day HBK in terms of always putting on an amazing match, and Logan Paul is a total natural when it comes to wrestling - also finally correctly positioned as a heel. Should be a good match - I expect Rollins to win.

Charlotte Flair Vs Rhea Ripley - This feud feels pretty cold. The match should be okay, and Rhea should come out on top. If she loses this one I think they risk alienating the audience from Charlotte beyond any hope of getting that connection back.

Bianca Belair Vs Asuka - I find Bianca's lack of character development disappointing. She's been the happy, smiley babyface who dances around for her entire main roster run and, to me, it's really boring. Asuka returning as Kana is a cool development. I hope she wins this one, but I fear the title stays with Bianca and remains stale.

Brock Lesnar Vs Omos - This is one that I want to see out of morbid curiousity, but this is a really underwhelming match for Brock at WM. I would actually rather have seen Brock Vs Cena, although I get that both are likely to do the job to younger talent here at WM, which makes sense from a business standpoint. As a fan, though, I don't really care about seeing Cena face Theory, not do I give a shit about seeing Omos beat Brock.

Gunther Vs Drew McIntyre Vs Sheamus - Should be a really fun, hard hitting brawl. No idea who wins this one, but I think it'll be one of the best matches of either night.

Trish, Lita & Becky Vs Damage CTRL - Poor Becky. The bathroom break match.

Edge Vs Finn Balor - Part of me feels like this feud has gone on for too long already, and so this match feels a bit redundant, but nonetheless it'll be a good blowoff to the Edge / Judgement Day stuff. Seriously, though, this does need to be the end of this program.

Women's and Men;s Tag Showcase Matches - These literally just exist to fill time. Couldn't care less about either match.

Rey Mysterio Vs Dominic Mysterio - This should be an interesting one. Storyline has been solid, just a case of whether Dom can raise his game at WM.

Sami & Kevin Vs The Usos - Not much intrigue here in terms of the match, it's obvious Sami and Kevin will win. How they get there will be the interesting part, I suppose. Still feels like a waste of Sami's momentum to me though.

Roman Reigns Vs Cody Rhodes - Much like the above match, the result isn't really in doubt which kills the intrigue somewhat. Once again it's about how they get there. I hope there are minimal shenanigans and Cody goes over as clean as possible. Have various faces stop the Bloodline from interfering before they even get close to the ring. Or have the Bloodline turn their backs on Roman. Whatever - just make it quick and painless and let Cody have his moment without the black cloud of interference hanging over the result.

This event as a whole could easily be trimmed to one night, I'd have the card as:

Pre-Show

Andre the Giant Memorial Battle Royale (replaces the men's fatal four way tag)

Women's Fatal Four Way Tag Match

Main Show

Seth Rollins Vs Logan Paul

Bron Breakker Vs Kofi Kingston (additional match for some NXT coverage, Breakker would win)

Bianca Belair Vs Asuka

Edge Vs Finn Balor

Becky Lynch and Lita Vs Bayley and Trish Stratus (some rebooking from my end here, I would have had Trish go heel and side with Bayley)

Gunther Vs Drew Vs Sheamus

Rey Mysterio Vs Dominic Mysterio

Austin Theory Vs Brock Lesnar Vs John Cena Vs Omos Vs Lashley (personally I think a five way for the US title would be more interesting than two individual matches - adding Lashley in as he's supposed to be in a match with Bray at Mania, but it's yet to be announced and seems to be up in the air. Personally I'd leave Bray off the card as his current gimmick sucks)

Charlotte Flair Vs Rhea Ripley

Sami & Kevin Vs The Usos

Roman Reigns Vs Cody Rhodes

---

Keeping in mind WM34 had 14 matches on the card, there's still room there for one extra match, although I'd be fine with leaving it like that. One night, pretty much every match on the main show I'd want to see (women's matches excepted, but they have to be on there). All titles are defended, including the WWE women's tag (Becky & Lita). Also a showcase for the NXT title.

 

[The Grayfox]

Yeah, there’s a lot of filler here for sure. The 4-way tag matches really shouldn’t be part of this. I understand that it’s to get more people on the card and get them the big Mania pay day, but realistically, nobody wants to see them.

If I was booking the Sami/KO vs Usos match, I’d put it last on night one and then I would entertain the idea of The Usos going over to the surprise of everyone and then KO turning on Sami at the end of the night. Then when Cody beats Reigns and separates the titles, have KO and Sami feud over the world title on Smackdown. I just don’t think putting the tag titles on Sami is the way to go. They’re not really capitalizing on what they have.

I assume we’re going to see a Judgment Day version of the Demon at Mania. Brood entrance for Edge, all that jazz. It kind of writes itself. Hell in a Cell, Brood Edge, Demon Balor. Like you said, hopefully this caps off their feud.

I’m going Gunther retains, Asuka and Rhea win the titles (I hope), Seth goes over, Omos goes over. Don’t care about the six-woman tag at all. Theory over Cena. Hopefully they throw some curve balls and it doesn’t end up just being a super predictable Mania.

 

[DE4life]

Part of the problem is that it feels predictable, but the unpredictable results would largely be unsatisfying...

Cena beating Theory would be bizarre and relegate the US title to a barely defended championship as Cena won't be around regularly post-WM. Would make zero sense for Cena to go over, especially as Triple H has put a huge emphasis on raising the value of the mid-card titles.

Logan Paul beating Rollins would only work if it triggers something fresh in the storyline, a new person being involved essentially. Paul winning clean would just make Seth look bad.

Lesnar beating Omos is possible but just means a part timer goes over a full timer they're trying to build into a monster. Pointless to even have to match if Lesnar wins.

Charlotte going over Rhea would be boring as hell.

Usos going over Sami and Kevin may make sense if KO turned in Sami but it would deflate the audience something fierce.

Reigns retaining the title would have to involve more Bloodline BS, which again would totally deflate the crowd and be one of the weakest ends to any Mania ever. It surely can't happen.

So yeah, pretty much feels like the predictable outcomes have to stay as they are, simply because the alternatives are way worse in terms of outcomes.

There are still a few matches where I can't say 100% what the result will be, which is good. Feels like Finn/Edge, Rey/Dom, Gunther/Drew/Sheamus and Bianca/Asuka could go either way. It's just a shame the two biggest matches seem, as of now at least, to be nailed on in terms of the outcomes.

 

[The Grayfox]

It really feels like Vince is back in his seat. I know they keep denying it, but I would bet that he is. The biggest indicator to me is that Triple H went out of his way to bring back people like Gargano, Kross, Emma, Hit Row, Mia Yim, Bray Wyatt and others... and now somehow almost every single one of them is floundering again. That can't be coincidence. Triple H pushed Gargano as his top babyface in NXT and now the dude is losing on Raw every week. I just don't see any way that Vince isn't controlling things again.

That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if this Mania ends up being a complete dud because an 80 year old man, who's completely out of touch can't stay away.

 

[DE4life]

The only thing I would say in regards to the people Trips brought back, is that arguably none of them really justified being brought back in the first place - even before VKM made his grand return.

Gargano - has been an annoying dweeb on the main roster since day one. Cringey and unlikeable. I don't think Trips has done him any favours.

Karrion Kross - Improved compared to the gimp-era under Vince, but idk, the gimmick still feels hokey to me.

Emma - mainly been a jobber since returning, was put in a random pairing with Madcop Moss for... reasons.

Hit Row - If we're being honest haven't connected with the crowd since the beginning of their main roster push. Swerve being gone takes a lot out of their act.

Mia Yim - well, at least she isn't in Retribution anymore?

Bray Wyatt - This guy desperately needs a filter. Left to his own devices his storylines just meander into pointless nonsense. His return has generally been a massive disappointment after his first appearance.

Braun Strowman - Has he really done anything of note since returning? Atm he's in some random pairing with Ricochet for some reason.

The Good Brothers - Had almost forgotten these two had been rehired. I think Triple H has too as they haven't been around for a while, as far as I can remember.

I mean... if anything, a lot of these guys have either proven Vince was right to release them or Triple H has also failed them. You then look to AEW and see a lot of the WWE cast-offs struggling there too, and, idk... makes you wonder whether Vinnie Mac actually did know what he was doing when he got rid of these guys.

 

[The Grayfox]

I assume The Good Brothers aren't around because AJ is injured. I agree with a lot of what you said, other than Gargano really. He can be pretty annoying but he's an excellent wrestler imo. Maybe they'll do something more with him when Ciampa comes back. I think Kross has potential but they just aren't using him right. As far as Wyatt, he should have a stable with some guys who can work and he can be a mouthpiece.

 

[DE4life]

I love Gargano the wrestler, and he was great in NXT. On the main roster, though, his wrestling hasn't been hugely spotlighted... instead it's largely been this irritating nonsense with Miz, Lumis, etc. One hopes that Ciampa returning would help things, but then, wasn't Ciampa dumped with Miz as well?

It's kind of funny that WWE apparently see no value on TGB unless AJ is around. Begs the question of whether it was really worth re-signing them at all. AJ does fine on his own, and I'm sure there's other guys they could have paired with him for that program with Judgement Day that would have gotten as much if not more crowd reaction than TGB.

In regards to Wyatt, yeah, it really isn't difficult to get him back on track. Stop with all the spooky, hokey bullshit. Just stop. It's dumb. Take him back to his genesis as the intense, creepy cult leader. That was his best work and what he needs to return to. With that said, Wyatt's biggest problem is that his matches never live up to the hype, and I'm not entirely sure how you get around that as, frankly, he just isn't that good as an in ring performer. He needs to have opponents who can work around his limitations. They've tried to solve this with the haunted house distractions and it just comes off as cheap. This is another one where I lean towards Vince being right to let Bray go, if he was on serious money. Is it really worth paying major cash to a guy who ultimately can't go in the ring, regardless of how good is character work could be?

 

[The Grayfox]

I think Bray said something recently about how he won’t return to the cult figure gimmick out of respect for Brodie. So that might explain that. There were rumors he was going to get a new faction and it was starting to look like it may be heading that way with Uncle Howdy. Now it seems like Bray is off TV again for unknown reasons. The rumors of the Wyatt 6 faction were interesting and included Vincent and Dutch from ROH, Joe Gacy, Erick Redbeard and Bo “Uncle Howdy” Dallas. I suppose that could still work.

I don't know, I am not in the Vince McMahon fan club and I am self-admittedly biased against him. I respect what he's done, but as a human being, I think the guy is a piece of shit. I've heard enough about him in my 30 years as a wrestling fan to know he is not a good person. When you hear guys who are close to him like Bruce Prichard telling stories and making light of the weird and cruel shit he has done... I just can't get on board. It's a weird spot to be in as a fan where when it's Vince McMahon vs. Whoever, you automatically take Whoever's side.

One would assume The Good Brothers were brought back at AJ's request since they're two of his best friends. I remember reading that he was not at all happy when they were released. Hell, I remember watching the video of his reaction when they switched brands and you could see he wasn't happy. I think Karl Anderson is a pretty good wrestler, I couldn't care less about Doc/Luke Gallows.

If Triple H is truly still in charge, I think Ciampa will come back strong. If he isn't... well, Ciampa probably ends up right back with Miz.

 

[DE4life]

As far as Bray is concerned, all I can say is whatever he's doing now... that isn't it. If the cult leader is out then okay, but whatever he does needs to come back to something more grounded in reality. Even when you go back to Kane and the Undertaker, who are probably the most popular 'supernatural' type characters WWE has had, both had storylines that were effectively grounded in reality. The most you saw in terms of unrealistic things were the lightning bolts which were used a handful of times. Otherwise the rest of the spooky/weird stuff - buried alive matches, inferno matches, the boiler room brawl, etc - were all reality based. They were all things that could actually happen. A lot of the supernatural elements were implied as opposed to outright shown or discussed. If you didn't want to accept a supernatural explanation (basically if you were an adult) then there were plenty of ways to rationally explain how Taker and Kane's tricks were pulled off. Bray meanwhile goes into silly horror movie territory all too often, which just disconnects me from everything as I'm unable to suspend my disbelief to the degree required for a lot of Wyatt's stuff. It's so far removed from everything else on the show that it creates a schism between his storylines and the rest of the product. A bit like the Codyverse in AEW - and much like the Codyverse, rarely does anybody come off better from being involved in Bray's nonsense.

In regards to Vince, believe me, I'm no fan either. I think he's ruined much of the past 10+ years of WWE, and even when he did do something right, storyline wise, he'd always screw it up in the end with some kind of horrendous booking decision. Also, yes, he's a pretty awful human being but he had such a deranged upbringing that I'll give him a pass on that to some degree. At the end of the day various people allow him to behave the way he does, allow him to get away with his gross behaviour, and ultimately have enabled him to be the way he is. They take as much blame as Vince himself - and I'm talking anyone involved in Vince's inner circle and any wrestler who's been at the top end of the card. All guilty in their own way, and to this day most will still go out of their way to praise Vince, so, yeah. Wrestling is full of scumbags.

Triple H, meanwhile, hasn't been as revolutionary as I'd hoped. A solid first few weeks, but it's gone a bit downhill since then for me. Trips main positive is that he doesn't have utterly ridiculous ideas come into his head out of the blue - getting rid of surnames, not having wrestling during ad breaks, etc - so there aren't any decisions made which are completely insane. He also doesn't have Vince's vindictive streak, so you don't see spontaneous burials or segments created purely to humiliate somebody for the sake of humiliating them. On the whole, though, his booking hasn't been as interesting as I'd hoped. The Bloodline storyline of course has been done very well and, even though I think the ending has been botched a little, I give credit for that. If you look outside the Bloodline, though... not too much else of interest happening. Rey and Dom is memorable. Not much else, though, outside of debuts of various wrestlers who had been released by Vince. When I look at the WM card I think... it's okay, but I'd been hoping for better.