Let's talk wrasslin'

[DE4life]

Cena definitely became more bearable towards the end. They finally let go of the 'Super Cena' thing and actually made him interesting as a character. Like him or hate him, Cena did an incredible job in the role he was given and gave 110% every time he was called on. He certainly did his share of politicking and screwed over a few guys, such as Alex Riley and the entire Nexus, but few people get into his position without stepping over people along the way.

Yeah I think this was building up to Orton/Lesnar at Summerslam. The build was pretty awesome, I can't remember much about the match itself but I do remember those elbows. That was some hardway shit. Only Orton and Lesnar could get away with something like that.

I've never been a fan of Ziggler, the budget-HBK thing never did anything for me, but this period on SD Live was one part of his career I did enjoy. They really dug into the character's flaws, and he reacted to it in a realistic way. It was simple but compelling. SD Live during this time was great for taking characters that hadn't been used well, or just straight up ignored, and playing to their strengths rather than homing in on their weaknesses. Even the likes of the Ascention, who had been buried since they were called up, had some good character moments on SD Live.

I thought this era lasted longer, but actually it was only about 8 months, from the start of August 2016 to April 2017. Talking Smack was another really cool addition that they made work. Typically the post-show interview segments are pretty boring, but you could tell they just let Renee and Bryan do whatever they wanted and it made for a hugely entertaining show where talents could really show their personalities outside of the WWE machine. Rhyno-claus in particular was brilliant



The whole episode of this is worth watching as it's just insane, Rhyno burping in Renee's face had me in tears it's Talking Smack from Dec 20, 2016 on the Network.

There was also the Miz/Daniel Bryan segment which was undoubtedly Miz's greatest ever promo:

 

[The Grayfox]

That Miz/Bryan promo was definitely memorable. It felt very real. Bryan looked very uncomfortable with it.

 

[DE4life]

Honestly still not sure how much of that is a work and how much is a shoot. "If you love wrestling so much why don't you quit and go back to the bingo hall with your friends" is a brutal line. Miz also seems to go a bit out of character when he mentions loving the fans, which makes me think he went quite far off the cuff here. If it was a work then masterfully done though. This promo put Miz onto another level.

 

[The Grayfox]

Yeah, I think there was some shooting going on there. As I recall, Bryan walking off wasn't scripted, he was legitimately getting pissed off, but who knows if that's accurate. Either way, very passionate promo from The Miz. Still one of the best heels they have.

 

[DE4life]

From a sports entertainment perspective Miz gets it better than almost anybody else on the roster. Just a shame most of his matches are kind of boring. Elias is in a similar boat - very entertaining on the mic, very average in the ring.

Watched a few more episodes now, already "Becky" chants over everyone else even back then. Very strange seeing the face painted good guy Usos. Their character pivot was badly needed, and incredibly well executed. Their current characters are in a different stratosphere to their face painted days.

Heath Slater is an absolute gem during this period. Within a couple of weeks he's already over huge, practically from nothing. Rhyno and Heath were a really fun tag team too. SD Live actually had a really strong tag team division, which suggests Vince (unsurprisingly) wasn't very involved in SD during this rare bright spot in post-2005 WWE history.

Could do without Nikki Bella. Always found the Bella twins to be terrible promos and just as bad as wrestlers. Never understood why people liked them (beyond the obvious). Maryse on the other hand is fantastic - not as a wrestler, obviously, but as a supporting character.

Randy Orton's late career resurgence is an interesting one. For a while he was considered pretty boring by a lot of people, with the dreaded chinlock and monotone promos, but by this point he'd turned it around and has been going strong ever since.

Lord only knows how WWE kept fucking up with Bray Wyatt. Some of his promos during this time needed to be more concise and less rambly, but the guy is still very enigmatic no matter what character he plays. Genuinely could have been the modern version of the Undertaker if booked well, but instead he ended up closer to this generation's Papa Shango.

A real shame what happened to Jason Jordan. Dude was very talented and was even managing to get that stupid Kurt Angle's son gimmick over before he got injured. As for Gable... just beyond words that they buried him with that utterly horrific Shorty G gimmick. American Alpha should have been anchoring the tag team division for years, but Vince hates tag teams not named New Day or Usos. With that said, as bad as it got for Gable post-AA, at least he didn't end up like poor Tucker after Heavy Machinery broke up. Now that was a burial of brutal proportions.

 

[The Grayfox]

I feel like Jason Jordan got plagued by the reports that Vince wanted to make him a top star. Just like Theory is getting now. Those reports come out and then the fans' instinct is to just rebel against them. It happened with Roman too. "Oh Vince wants this guy to be the next star? Not on my watch." It usually doesn't matter anyway. If Vince wants it to happen, it's going to happen. It's just interesting that it's become second nature to try and ruin a push at any cost. I'm interested to see where it goes with Theory. Right now it seems like Theory won the MITB and because it wouldn't be believable to have him cash in on Reigns at some random show, they're going to use a Last Man Standing match with Brock to make that happen. Although I think it makes more sense for Drew to beat Roman at Clash at the Castle. I personally don't think Theory is ready for a world title run at all. If Brock wins at Summerslam, I'll be very surprised.

Bray Wyatt being compared to Papa Shango is sad, but also very true. There was a lot of potential there. It seemed like they were really going with him for a while there, right when he became The Fiend. I'm not convinced he won't be back in WWE at some point though.

As far as Becky... I'm very 'meh' on her right now. Not a fan of her current character. Watching her ascent was fun though.

 

[DE4life]

The interesting thing about Jason Jordan is that the original plan was clearly for him to be a plucky babyface, but for once WWE actually took notice of the negative fan reaction and began pivoting his character to align with that reaction. A rare case of WWE actually having their fingers on the pulse and realising when a change of direction was required. Jordan was on an upward trajectory when he got injured, and it's a shame as I think he had a lot of mileage and potential storylines to work through as that character. I mean, knowing WWE they probably would have fucked it up anyway, but the potential was there.

I agree on Theory - he's a good heel and playing his role well, but it feels like too much too soon. I don't think anyone buys him as a realistic threat to the likes of Brock or Roman. He doesn't have that kind of credit in the bank at the moment. Over time and with enough build he can get there, but it doesn't feel like he's at a point where he should be involved at the top of the card. It's obviously good that they are pushing a young, talented guy, but it has to make sense to the audience that he's in that position.

With Bray it was always a case of building to a peak and then completely collapsing. Pre-Fiend he'd always lose the big one, making him all bark and no bite, and with the Fiend they went too far in the other direction. He became far too powerful, to the point where at the very least it becomes impossible to put a major title on him as it would be difficult to have anyone convincingly beat him. Then he just got squashed by Goldberg, fucking lol. I agree that he'll probably end up back in WWE sooner rather than later though.

 

[The Grayfox]

I like when they push a young talent, it just seems like the choice is always... interesting. They never want it to be the person that the crowd wants. It has to get overwhelmingly huge for them to cave (i.e. Bryan Danielson). I mean, they finally had to just turn Roman heel because nobody was buying it. They've dropped the ball with so many wrestlers and then blame those wrestlers for "not getting over." They like to claim that its all in the audiences' hands, but we all know full well that the company holds the magic wand. If they want somebody to get over, they will. And if they want to bury somebody, they'll do that too. Countless examples of that throughout the years. We'll see how it goes with Theory.

 

[DE4life]

It's because the people the crowd want pushed have always gotten themselves over when WWE didn't plan for it to happen. Bryan, Rusev, Cesaro, Kofi (yes they gave him the title eventually but then jobbed him out to Lesnar in 7 seconds and pushed him back down to where he had been), Ziggler, Zack Ryder, Alex Riley... the list goes on and on, but basically if you get yourself over without having the machine behind you first then you'll get fleeting acknowledgement at best followed by a burial and a return to the status quo.

I mean how do you not capitalise long-term on stuff like the yes movement (they got there eventually but had to be dragged kicking and screaming), Rusev Day, the Cesaro section, Kofimania, etc? Vince just hates anything he didn't explicitly approve of and endorse. He has to let the fans know time after time that he's right and they are wrong.

 

[DE4life]

So, Vince has officially announced his retirement on Twitter and reportedly Brock Lesnar has walked out of Smackdown. That's some double-punch news-wise.

 

[The Grayfox]

Supposedly the Brock thing was an error. Or he did walk out but came back. But I think because Brock's dealings have always been with Vince, he may very well finish up at Summerslam. We'll see.

What a weird situation. And Nick Khan being co-CEO? What a disaster that is. That guy is ruthless. I'm not sure that's what WWE needs. Stephanie is a good call. Trips back in charge of talent is a good call. I wonder what's going to happen with creative.

 

[The Grayfox]

Eh, maybe the Brock thing is legit. More people are reporting it now.

 

[DE4life]

Well, it's unlikely that creative can get much worse. As for Nick Khan as co-CEO... yeah, I'm not seeing a bright future for the non-US WWE Network.

No idea what the situation is with Brock... I mean, if he has walked out then it can't be a coincidence that it's on the same day Vince announces that he's quitting?

 

[The Grayfox]

Supposedly, he (Brock) said something along the lines of "if he's gone, I'm gone." It looks like he did indeed walk out. Apparently they have a plan in place for Summerslam in the event he doesn't come back. This is pretty surreal.

 

[DE4life]

So Vince apparently defrauded WWE to the tune of $14.6m. That'll do it.

 

[The Grayfox]

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if there is a lot more to it than that too. I think in the coming months (maybe even weeks), we'll hear about some pretty damning things concerning Vince McMahon. I have pretty conflicting thoughts on it to be honest. He is responsible for a lot of good in the pro wrestling world, but that also comes with the bad.

With HHH taking over creative AND talent relations, I wonder if we'll see some familiar faces back soon. A lot of "insiders" feel like Vince's presence will be felt whether he is there or not because he's still the majority shareholder in the company. While that may be true, if talent is reporting to Trips, that does change things quite a bit. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Gargano and Wyatt back at some point. I also hope this means that Ciampa will be given a fair shot now. But more than anything, I hope some people are given their due and we see more consistent storylines moving forward.

 

[DE4life]

SummerSlam...

Bianca/Becky - The match was good, but I struggle to care about either of them as Bianca's character is bland and the "big time Becks" thing is just meh. Kind of entertaining but Becky reminds me of when Stone Cold turned heel - too early, and he never really got his face momentum back. I still think there was a ton of mileage in 'the man' and WWE basically poured cold water over it.

Bayley returning and teaming up with Dakota Kai and Io Shirai (now renamed Io Sky?) was an interesting development. Feels like a Triple H call - especially as Dakota Kai was released a couple of months back. Becky is apparently a face again now. She went so deep into her heel persona that it's weird for her to just suddenly turn face again with no explanation, but it might just be Triple H trying to reset things as quickly as possible. The fans still want to cheer Becky so it's the right call even if it doesn't really make much sense. I guess we'll see how much support Becky has lost through her heel turn.

Miz/Logan Paul - say what you will about Logan Paul, but I don't know if I've ever seen a celebrity take to wrestling like this guy. Bad Bunny was good, but Paul legitimately looks like a seasoned, trained wrestler. It's little things like the way he moves, the way he takes bumps and sells, the way he positions himself in the ring... it's very, very impressive. Paul's frogsplash to Miz on the announce desk was sick. The crowd wasn't hugely into this one though, I think because they have no inclination to really cheer for either guy. Miz is an out-and-out heel, whilst Paul is, to the crowd, a natural heel, even though he wants to be a face. When the crowd chanted it wasn't a "Logal Paul" chant, but rather a "tiny balls" chant aimed at Miz. With that said, Paul got big cheers for the pin, and I think his natural in-ring ability might sway people into cheering for him. I really hope Ciampa as Miz's little sidekick is changed by Triple H ASAP. He can and should be so much more than the latest John Morrison. AJ Styles coming out and going after Ciampa maybe points to a change of direction for Ciampa, and a feud between him and AJ would be awesome, so hopefully that's another Triple H creative correction in effect.

The MMM thing is so stupid, but sports entertaining stupid. I like it. Interesting that Max Dupri was back in this segment. Vince had reportedly pulled him from this gimmick because he didn't feel like he was doing a good enough job, hence the introduction of Maxxine Dupri... but maybe this is another Triple H course correction.

Lashley/Theory - didn't really care about this one. Theory losing again just makes it seem like he's nowhere near ready to be in the position he's in.

Judgement Day/the Mysterios - match was fine I guess. Edge's return visual was pretty cool. It was this part of the show that made me realise how fucking long that entranceway is.

McAfee/Corbin - not the greatest match technically, to say the least, but McAfee matches are always fun.

Usos/Profits - seeing Jarrett in a WWE match in 2022 is a trip, even as a special ref. Couldn't have imagined that even 5 years ago. Usos retaining again is boring, and the wrong decision if WWE are planning to keep the Profits together as a team. You can't just have the Profits repeatedly lose the big one and expect anyone to take them seriously. You might as well break them up at this point, even if they do at some point win the belts I think the time to push them has gone. It should have been in this match. Obviously if they do break the Profits up then this ending is fine, but it begs the question of why the company wouldn't put the straps on a team who are clearly very over.

Not convinced by pulling an advertised match in Rollins/Riddle to run an angle that could easily have aired on Raw instead. No idea what the thinking behind this was.

Liv/Rousey - well, the finish just made Liv look lucky rather than good. She tapped at the two count so technically lost the match. Rousey going heel is a good idea though.

Kane/Glen Jacobs - fuck off. Disgusting human being.

Reigns/Lesnar - Lesnar coming out on a tractor was certainly something. Pretty sure the entrances literally took over 10 minutes. A suitably brutal match between these two. The first tractor spot was a cool visual but a bit underwhelming in overall execution. Some of the table spots looked a lot more rough. The second tractor spot where Lesnar physically lifted the ring with the tractor was awesome. Not often nowadays that you can genuinely say WWE have done something completely new, but I've never seen anything like that before. Heyman going through the table was fun. The only disappointment was the ending. They made Brock look incredibly strong in defeat, but the "LOLROMANWINS" after interference from various people scenario is beyond old at this point, no matter what spin they put on it. Nonetheless this was an incredible spectacle of a match.

 

[DE4life]

Wade Keller has confirmed that turning Becky face was a Triple H decision - Vince had no plans to change her alignment.

 

[The Grayfox]

I thought Summerslam was decent and agree with most, if not all of your points. If Drew doesn't win at Clash at the Castle, it's going to be very annoying. I do think he will though. I was very disappointed that Drew didn't get his moment due to the pandemic. Yes, he won the title, but he did it in front of no crowd. It feels like this is going to be the moment he deserves and he'll do it in the UK which is fitting.

I wonder if Lesnar is done now. Since they advertised that this was the last Lesnar/Reigns match, I'm not sure where he goes from here. Plus with Vince gone, he probably doesn't have much reason to stick around.

Not putting the belts on the Profits was a mistake unless they plan on splitting them up. This was definitely the time to do the switch.

Liv/Rousey match was pretty bad. Their chemistry just seemed off. Turning Ronda heel was the right move though.

Paul and Miz was ok. The frog splash spot was sick indeed. He hit pretty hard. It looked great.

I've been waiting for McAfee to screw up that leaping superplex spot since he first did it and it finally happened. There were quite a few messed up spots last night actually. The superplex, Paul's mishap in the corner, Lesnar's failed jump, etc.

 

[DE4life]

Seems like there's some legit heat in AEW between Punk and Hangman. Punk's jibes at Hangman at the start of this week's show were unscripted and based on Punk feeling genuinely disrespected by something Hangman had said in a promo a while back, before Punk got injured.

Man, this bullshit kind of makes me miss early AEW. If Punk is going to start behaving like a prima donna then Tony Khan has a difficult decision to make.