Let's talk wrasslin'

[The Grayfox]

Lots of news tidbits going around:


Drew McIntyre reportedly stormed out of the ring, grabbed his shit in the locker room, slammed the door and immediately left the building. No word on if it has anything to do with Punk or not. Initially, it was claimed that it did, then a video came out showing that he left the ring before Punk even came out. Now it's being said that talent was pulled aside right before the main event and told that Punk was coming out at the end of the show so it could go either way with Drew.

Rollins was flipping Punk off and yelling 'fuck you!' Kermit, the Reddit insider, claims this is a work and setting up for Punk/Rollins at the Rumble. I think that would've been a better night 1 main event for Mania personally.

SRS didn't say who, but there is at least one talent very upset by Punk's return, but there are also people very excited about it.

Trips and Punk had an hour long conversation a week ago and buried the hatchet. Trips genuinely seems excited about Punk being back. This apparently all happened very quickly and was kept very closely guarded. I laughed when SRS said it could blowback on Triple H for keeping people in the dark -- like, yeah, he should've told everyone so it could be leaked to assholes like SRS.

At the press conference, Triple H said something to the effect of 'if after 10 years, you're still the same person, you've messed up. I'm a different person now, so is he. It's a completely different company now.' He also said CM Punk is back home where he belongs.

Punk told a few people close to him that he was coming back.

According to reports, Punk has signed a multi-year deal and it was signed just a few hours before the show started. Amount of dates is undetermined but that he will wrestle "several times a year."

My thoughts are this could be good or bad, depending on how you look at it. I think with Punk's age, the WWE style is going to work way better for him than the AEW style did. I think he will look a lot better in the ring in WWE against guys like Rollins, Reigns, etc. We COULD be getting Punk vs. Reigns at Mania which would be pretty bad, since I don't think Punk is the one to dethrone him and it fucks Cody over. Maybe Punk wins at Mania and main events night 1 against somebody else. No matter what, I'm a bit shocked. I knew it was a possibility, but still didn't expect it. I marked the fuck out.

 

[Jester Slave]

Damn, Corny was absolutely right that WWE would snatch Punk up!

 

[DE4life]

I wish I could say Punk's return evoked a response in me, but it didn't. I've just totally lost touch and lost interest in both WWE and AEW at this point. I didn't care that Survivor Series was on. Full Gear was the first major AEW PPV I've chosen not to watch since they incepted in 2019. Haven't watched a WWE PPV in months, despite having the Network. When I read CM Punk had returned it just elicited a shrug of the shoulders from me. Yeah, OK. A gross, hypocritical guy joins a gross. hypocritical company. Makes sense. It did not instill any desire in me to start watching WWE programming again going forward. The total opposite, honestly.

That's not to say I now dislike wrestling. I still enjoy watching the good channels on YT - Wrestling Bios and WWW in particular - as long as it's focused on older stuff. Old WcW and WWE shows I still enjoy. Watched Starrcade '94, World War 3 '95 and Bash at the Beach '96 over the past couple of weeks alone and was entertained. Also quite sure I could watch Smackdown between August 2016 - March 2017 or mid-2000s TNA and have a good time. It's just modern wrestling that leaves me utterly cold. I'm probably as cold on wrestling now as I've ever been, or at least equal with 2003/2004 when I stopped watching entirely. But back then WWE was really the only game in town, as TNA was little more than a glorified indy at the time. Nowadays there's two big companies, and somehow I'm not remotely interested in either of them.

 

[DE4life]

I should note that I myself am somewhat of a hypocrite, as despite my feelings towards WWE as a company I still give them £10 a month for the Network - because I still want to watch the old Nitro and Raw shows, as well as the old PPVs. It's true that I could go and pirate that stuff and download it from elsewhere, but not only would that take an insane amount of time and storage, but I don't think it'd make me any less of a hypocrite and go and get everything illegally. So, it is what it is. I'm not necessarily judging Punk for being a hypocrite, pretty much all humans are to some extent, it just is what it is. It's hard for me to invest anything emotionally in Punk returning, knowing how he's spoken about WWE over the past decade. His shitty behaviour in AEW being essentially rewarded just emphasises how morally bankrupt wrestling is. I suppose it was in the old days too, though, so again it isn't really something I can judge objectively as I still enjoy going back and watching the shows from the 90s and 2000s. My decision not to watch or be interested now isn't really anything to do with morals or hypocrisy, it's just that the product being put out by both WWE and AEW does not interest me.

 

[The Grayfox]

I see your points. For me, it just makes WWE a bit interesting because of how surreal of a moment it was. It was like Bret Hart walking out on Raw more than a decade after the screwjob. Just something I didn't expect to see. Wrestling is full of hypocrisy. It is still a carny business at it's core. Even with Bret and all the negative things he said -- and if I'm being honest, to this day I still lean towards the screwjob being mostly his fault -- he came back too. They always do. When that kind of money is thrown at you, few would turn it down, especially because for some of those guys, it's more about doing what they love doing, not necessarily the company they're doing it for. I think 'normal' jobs are much the same in some ways. You may get a break room full of people talking shit about upper management at the company they work for, or the company itself... they still work there. I don't know, there's some grey area in there somewhere.

I'm trying to look at this from an entertainment point of view. Do I think the things Punk did in AEW suck? Sure, although I'm not one of the people that think it was 100% him either. I think AEW is has a very poor structure and that is to blame for some of it. I think the Bucks are at fault too. It's an issue of ego and a lot of other shit. I'm not excusing any of it by any means, I'm just choosing to be entertained and try to just be a fan. For me, Survivor Series was very entertaining. But also, to each their own. I've gone through lulls where I didn't watch for a bit because I got burnt out or whatever, so I understand it. I'm not at that point right now with WWE however. AEW on the other hand, I really just don't give a shit about it at all anymore, outside of a few talent.

 

[DE4life]

The thing with Punk is, I'm not sure it's about money or the love of the business. I think it's purely about ego. If he really loved the business, I don't think he would have been out of it for 7 years. He would have jumped to AEW when they offered him the chance in 2019, rather than wait until 2021 when the company was already established. In terms of money, he surely has enough by now to never have to worry about having to work again.

It feels to me like he came back to AEW for the validation and the adulation of the fans and his co-workers. As soon as that started going south, so did his attitude. I can't help but think it's the same thing happening here. He's gone to WWE purely to spite Tony Khan and those who hated him in AEW, as well as to validate his ego.

With that said, you could argue most top performers have the same core motivation. It's certainly not unique to Punk. It's only different because of how he's marketed himself over the past 20 years or so - and make no mistake, this return confirms it really is all marketing and PR. I think with Bret it's a little different as he clearly had a lot of pride in his legacy in WWE, and it bothered him that the final memory most had of him was Survivor Series '97 and his shitty WCW run. I think his return was borne out of a genuine desire to end his story and his legacy on a positive note, rather than a profoundly negative one.

In terms of interest, yeah, I'm definitely in a major lull at the moment. I hope it'll change at some point, but right now I don't think any new signing would pique my interest enough to start watching either WWE or AEW again. It'd have to be a pre-2023 Bloodline-level storyline.

 

[DE4life]

On the plus side for WWE, it seems like the only main roster talent so far who is really upset over the CM Punk signing is Drew McIntyre. I'm a bit confused by that though, as I don't remember there being any heat between those two in the past. Not that I've read about, anyway. I know Drew's contract is expiring soon, so he might be the next signing for AEW.

 

[The Grayfox]

People are theorizing, and obviously it’s just speculation, that he would see this as a back step for himself because now there’s another big attraction that keeps him from the main event scene. He already appears to not be happy with his current spot. But who knows, maybe there’s heat there that people aren’t aware of.

If it’s the former, it strikes me as odd because he’s definitely made a name for himself. He’s in the upper card, had a WWE title run (not the best because of the pandemic…) and it seems WWE wants him there and still pushes him. So if that’s the case, it’s a bit confusing. Wrestling thrives when there’s a bunch of guys at the top of the card fighting for their spots e.g. the attitude era. Also having to work with people you don’t particularly care for isn’t anywhere close to being unique to pro wrestling. That is something most people have to deal with so I always kind of roll my eyes a little bit when people make it a talking point.

 

[DE4life]

The only other thing I can think of is that he was given a pretty derisory offer to re-sign, and Punk being brought in on what is presumably a decent wedge has rubbed him the wrong way. Fair enough if so, considering the hard work Drew has put in, only for a 45 year old Punk to return after bashing WWE endlessly for a decade on a bumper deal. I imagine that will sting for a few people.

Ultimately in wrestling it's all about 'what can you do for me now?', though, and in the short-term Punk will draw more money than Drew. Harsh, maybe, but that's the business and always has been.

 

[DE4life]

Also, watching old WCW shows, I realised I kind of miss the campy elements of wrestling. The badly acted but hilarious skits and promos, the often bizarre characters and gimmicks, the announcers riffing off-script... it just felt so much more fun when everything wasn't so manufactured. Sure, the matches were nowhere near the level we get now, and there's a lot of really awful stuff on those shows... but idk, for some reason it just feels looser and more enjoyable.

 

[The Grayfox]

WCW hit its peak for me in 1997. That’s my favorite WCW year. Looking back on it now, I love guys like Disco Inferno and Alex Wright as a heel. Bischoff, say what you will, had WCW dialed in. The wrestling/promo to skits and surprises ratio was pretty much perfect. I remember watching 3 hour Nitro episodes and not being bored for a minute and most times it would fly by. Even now, although I am a fan of some of the stuff WWE is doing, it’s still a slog and I mostly watch highlights.

For all the shit Bischoff takes, ‘96-‘98 WCW is my favorite time in wrestling. It was a joy to watch and never dull. I still watch episodes from that time and I’m still very entertained by them. Even the weird campy stuff you mentioned like Glacier, Mortis and Wrath — mostly Mortis though. Kanyon was an ace.

 

[DE4life]

1997 WCW is absolutely the apex of that promotion, without a doubt. Really entertaining, good characters, a lot of quality matches, and even though the top storyline carried the company there was still a lot of interesting and varied stuff going on underneath. It was also quite spontaneous and unpredictable, mainly due to the chaotic structure of the organisation. You never really knew what was going to happen next or who was going to say what. Probably the only thing they dropped the ball on was the Horsemen (in 1997 and 1998). Bischoff's disdain for the group robbed WCW of a faction that could realistically combat the nWo and make the "war" a lot less lopsided. The Horsemen could also play the nWo at their own game, having basically been the nWo before the nWo existed, so it was really a huge missed opportunity. They completely decimated a massive portion of their Southern fanbase, which was their core fanbase, by repeatedly denigrating the Horsemen in so-called Flair country.

For me the 3 hour Nitros and the introduction of Thunder is where the product starts to decline. It's still fine for the first half of 1998, but by the end of that year WCW is struggling under its own weight. It's hard to pinpoint an exact moment when things start to really go downhill, but in my view it's before the fingerpoke. Maybe after Goldberg beat Hogan at the Georgia Dome. Sting joining the Wolfpac definitely rubbed me the wrong way as a young fan, too, although now that I'm older I get it. Still don't agree with it, but I get it. I'm not sure how much more mileage they were going to get out of silent crow Sting, considering his mystique had been damaged heavily by the Starrcade debacle and lacklustre booking during his title reign.

Warrior coming in was a mistake as well. Great for a short-term pop, but his tenure there was just hokey and disappointing for the most part. You knew it was going to go off the rails the moment he came out for his first promo and went over by something like 15 minutes, rambling on like an old school Jester Slave forum post come to life.

I know that by late 1998 I was more invested in WWE, and by the time 1999 rolled around I was watching WCW purely out of routine. We lost the channel that aired WCW during that time, so my grandparents used to record the show on VHS for me every week. I think I stopped asking them to do that around May or June 1999. WCW had just totally lost me by that point. I never watched it regularly again after that. Most of what I've seen after mid-1999 in WCW is through recaps by YouTube channels.

 

[DE4life]

In fact, I can remember one thing from late 1998 which really pushed me away from WCW. There was a week when Sting reverted back to his crow persona after Luger was attacked backstage. Repelled from the rafters, crow theme music, white facepaint. Wrestled in a tag match in that whole persona too. At that time I'd been hoping for Sting to turn back for a while as I had no love for Wolfpac Sting, so I was really hyped by this. I eagerly awaited the next episode of Nitro to see what would happen next (we didn't get Thunder in the UK at that time, so I couldn't catch that).

Next week... they basically acted like it had never happened. Didn't bring it up. Sting was back as Wolfpac Sting like the previous week had been some kind of fever dream. I was really disappointed that this wasn't followed up on at all, and I know that helped kill my interest in WCW going forward.

 

[The Grayfox]

A lot of people talk about 1998 and how that was WCW’s best year, but for me it’s always been ‘97. It was a nice mix of where the business had been and where it was going. By the time mid-1998 had rolled around, I was fully back into WWF. I was never a Goldberg fan so by the time he became champion, I was pretty much out. I mean, I understand why he was made champion. But even in my younger teenage years, I was into the wrestling and I knew that Goldberg couldn’t wrestle. I was more into the midcard WCW stuff anyway.

I wasn’t into Wolfpac Sting either, although it was nice to hear him talking again, as I was legitimately starting to wonder if he couldn’t speak anymore or something lol. I didn’t like the full red face paint or the fact that he was still sort of trying to be Crow Sting while also not. I think when he joined the Wolfpac, it should’ve come with a new look and then he could’ve gone back later.

As far as 3 hour Nitro’s go, my timeline was messed up. I know there were the occasional 3 hour shows in ‘97, but yeah, it didn’t permanently happen until 1998. Although I did enjoy some of the early ‘98 three hour Nitros too.

 

[DE4life]

It'd be '97 for me as well. '98 was where the wheels began falling off, and you could tell that creatively they were running on fumes. They really had nowhere to go post-nWo and it showed, as their only play was to spread the nWo out even further into Hollywood, the Wolfpac and even the LWO. Then the nWo elite in early 1999. They just had no idea how to pivot away from that angle once it started losing momentum.

It actually would have been cool if Sting had gone without facepaint in the Wolfpac. Would have lent to the more 'real' feel that they were going for with that group. The red facepaint just looked awful. At the very least it would have been better to mix the red and white together - he did it in TNA a few times and it looked decent enough. All red was just a bad look.

The 3 hour Nitro in 1997 when Luger beat Hogan for the title is one of my favourites, so they could pull off a longer show when it was a one off. I think the issue came when they had to do a three hour Nitro EVERY week, and also additional programming for Thunder. It made the whole process untenable.

Another thing about the UK, we didn't even get the two hours of Nitro until some time in 1998. Nitro for us was edited down into a single hour. They would often show highlights from earlier in the show that had been cut from our broadcast, and I was always baffled by it as a kid, as I had no idea we were getting content cut. Also no PPVs, and not even Thunder until four or five months into 1998. We had slim pickings.

 

[DE4life]

Weak return promo from Punk. Generic returning babyface wrestler script #8. I know it's WWE so you expect that to some degree, but come on, it's CM Punk. That was far too predictable.

I hate how nowadays with stuff like this they build up to one segment and that's it, rather than having the show revolve around it. They could have done a bunch of backstage segments with Punk interacting with various wrestlers, planting the seeds for multiple potential angles.

But nope, just the one cheesy "I'm home and I love you guys" promo. Fine, I guess, but anyone who's been following Punk's story over the past decade would surely have been rolling their eyes at the entire thing.

If it's the opening of a longer story where Punk becomes a corporate sellout heel, however, then that's understandable. Still a formulaic and boring way to start, but logical.

 

[The Grayfox]

I’m really hoping it’s building up to corporate sell-out heel Punk. That’s the only way this is gonna work. Having Punk come out and just gush about WWE when a year earlier he was talking about how toxic WWE is and it’s full of bootlickers, etc. just doesn’t make sense any other way unless this is WWE’s way of punishing him. But at the same time, they’re about to put him in a main event spot right out of the gate with Rollins and reports say he is slated to work Reigns at some point as well. Sell-out CM Punk could be really good if done right.

Supposedly there is an NDA in place where Punk can’t even talk about Tony Khan and AEW and vice versa so anyone thinking he was going to come out and shit on AEW was mistaken. Plus, this would be WWE’s way of not mentioning the competition because they don’t matter. I assume in their eyes, there’s no reason to do that.

 

[DE4life]

I thought Punk might sneak a "bucks" reference in there somewhere.

If he's pencilled in for Roman I can't imagine they're going the corporate sellout route imminently. That'd require Roman to work as a face, presumably, and that just seems really unlikely. I assume the match with Rollins will largely be centered around the comments Rollins has made about Punk, with both being in a tweener position.

Feels like it'll be at least a few months before we see a real Punk heel turn, although in that time they can still subtly build to it.

 

[The Grayfox]

All the Punk stuff just makes me laugh. Every single Punk post on Reddit has more views/comments than anything else. People don't realize that just by talking about him, you're making him relevant and proving that he wins no matter what. He still draws and he still commands attention. And these same people bashing him nonstop don't understand why WWE brought him back -- exactly for these reasons.

 

[DE4life]

A few tidbits from the WON that I saw on SQ reddit:

"The idea of Reigns vs. Rhodes and Rollins vs. Punk as the nights of Mania main events is certainly viable and the former has been the plan for a year."

I'd say that's the right call for the immediate future. There's no need to hot-shot Punk vs Reigns for WM and it makes sense to circle back to Cody and Reigns, with Cody presumably finally dethroning Reigns as champion. If Cody lost to Reigns again at WM then it would really put a dent in his credibility.

"The plan is to take a lot of time before getting to Reigns v Punk. The feeling right now is that it will be gigantic at the time they choose to get there. Whether it results in Paul Heyman leaving Reigns for Punk & Punk going heel & Reigns face, which was the speculation we got, there are multiple different ways to approach it."

It would definitely be a mega-match, but I'm not sure the idea of turning Reigns face would be a good approach. I just feel like they would end up in the same position as before, with the fans ultimately cheering the supposed heel in Punk and booing Reigns as a face. WWE's attempts to forcefully ram babyface Reigns down the throats of fans for so many years, with visceral rejection, will make it incredibly difficult to pivot him back to being a face nowadays. With Cena there was an organic shift in the fanbase towards genuinely liking him after the Super Cena effect disappeared and he became more vulnerable as a competitor - helped by the fact he was on shows increasingly less often. I don't think they're at that point with Reigns. I don't sense an organic shift in the fanbase towards wanting to cheer for him.

"From the WWE side, they knew Punk would come in since there were two prior attempts Punk’s side made to come in. Once before he signed with AEW, and a second time last year when WWE couldn’t have gotten him anyway because his AEW contract was still in effect."

Punk's first promo in AEW loses a lot of its merit when you realise he actively tried to return to WWE before signing with AEW.