Let's talk wrasslin'

[DE4life]

I used to have Raw/Smackdown/Dynamite on in the background back in the day when I was doing other things. I'd look up and watch when something interesting (to me) was happening, and go back to whatever else I was doing when there was something on I didn't care about. I stopped doing this because it got to the point where there was nothing interesting, shows were going by without me looking up and watching at all. So now I just have music on instead, or something from YouTube.

In terms of promos, the majority of people who can give a decent promo in AEW are ex-WWE or ex-TNA. Very few of the original AEW talents are solid on the mic. MJF is obviously a huge exception, but he's a unique talent. Darby can't cut a promo. Jungle Boy can't cut a promo. Statlander can't cut a promo. The Acclaimed do good rappings, but promos? Eh. Omega's promo skills have always been mid, same with The Elite. Hangman is a decent promo but doesn't really get much time on the mic. Lucha Bros don't do promos. Orange has a schtick which works, but not exactly what you'd call a range when it comes to promos. Same with Hook. Luchasaurus doesn't do promos. I don't even know what Private Party are up to these days, but don't remember them cutting promos. Hobbs has potential, but needs practice and isn't really getting that time on TV, QT is actually pretty solid, but it's QT, so who cares. Guevara just makes me want to change channels. Wardlow and Yuta are also poor promos. None of the non-WWE women can talk.

So yeah, it's a pretty big problem. Well - in the context of promos being important. AEW doesn't really seem to care about them, so maybe to them as long as you can have a 5* match it doesn't matter.

 

[The Grayfox]

Yeah, their priorities may just be on wrestling. I guess the idea that promos sell tickets may not necessarily be a factor for AEW. Even if they don't care about 5* matches, their audience does. To be fair, guys like Edge and Christian are veterans and have a lot of experience and maybe that experience will help the younger talent.

 

[DE4life]

I think Christian is genuinely doing some of the best work of his career at the moment. He was great during his TNA run as well. Both he and Edge have aged remarkably well. Both of them being away from the ring for a lot time probably helped with that. They're obviously playing the long game as far as Edge and Christian reuniting as a team, but that's absolutely the right call. Christian's momentum is strong right now and having Edge involved in an opposing capacity should help put it on an even higher level. When they eventually do go on another tag run, as barring injury they inevitably will, it should be a special moment.

 

[The Grayfox]

Christian is definitely at his peak. He's staying in character at all times and really just living the gimmick, which is cool. I'm sure we're going to see both singles matches with him and Edge and some tag team stuff, but in which order, who knows? I found it interesting that Edge wanted to work full time in WWE but they only wanted to give him 10 matches a year. Maybe it was being on the safe side. He can clearly still go, so it's a bit surprising they didn't want to put him in more long term feuds. I know a lot of people are really annoyed he didn't put anyone over on his way out, but that isn't his fault either. Still, interesting that he's going to be full time with AEW. We'll see how long that lasts I guess.

Meltzer reported that a bunch of contracts in AEW are coming up by the end of the year and some of those talents will most likely make the jump to WWE. I believe he said "Jade Cargill will certainly not be the last." People speculating that he's referring to Ricky Starks, Wardlow, Jack Perry, Andrade and others. The only guy I REALLY want to see go back to WWE is Malakai Black. With Triple H seemingly having more power now, I think it would be great for him. He deserves a main event run imo. Granted, I am extremely biased because he's one of my all-time favorite wrestlers. I was blown away when WWE released him. There was a lot of untapped potential there. Plus his wife works for WWE and I'm sure he'd love to be on the road with her. A lot of conflicting reports about his contract status though.

Rumor is that it's going to be Cena vs. Roman at Crown Jewel next month. Seriously? Nobody is suspending disbelief there. They've already done it and we know Roman is going to win, so who cares? They might as well just hold off having Roman in a match until Wrestlemania. Or put him in tag matches where there's still the chance he could lose, like at MITB. Any title match before Wrestlemania is lose/lose for viewers.

 

[DE4life]

In regards to Reigns and Cena, I guess it's one of those things where they just try to get the biggest names to face each other at the Saudi events due to the money involved. It's not really about what the normal fans want or are interested in, but what the Saudis demand. If they're paying obscene money for WWE, they're going to want the best possible matchups regardless of whether the result is in any doubt.

Rumours seriously ramping up now that Punk will be at Survivor Series. Have to admit I'm really surprised at WWE bringing him in this quickly after everything that happened in AEW, but I guess they figure they can put him on a tighter leash than Khan did. There's no way he'll have the same level of creative control or backstage influence, and that's probably for the best. His first promo surely has to be "In 2014 I left Sports Entertainment, and in 2023 I came back".

 

[The Grayfox]

For some reason, I’m not that surprised. I think it really goes back to the whole “best for business” thing. If they think they can make money with Punk, they see it as a win. Plus, they also likely see it as an opportunity to shove it up Tony Khan’s ass since he clearly bent over backwards to keep Punk as long as he could. And really, if it wasn’t an issue of workplace lawsuits and lawyers having to get involved due to the last incident, Punk would probably still be in AEW and Tony Khan would still be catering to him.

People who have had a much worse falling out with Vince/WWE have come back. Guys like Warrior and Jarrett who held Vince up for money were brought back. Guys who filed lawsuits against the company, guys who went out and completely buried WWE and Vince and Triple H — Road Dogg and Billy Gunn spring to mind — were brought back. So I just don’t find it that surprising. If money can be made and they can stick it to the competition at the same time, it’s a win/win for WWE.

Also, this could be premature. Definitely just rumors for now. I mean, a lot of reporters are saying it at this point so I’m sure there’s validity to it but there’s always the chance that both sides can’t come to an agreement on it. Either way, if it happens and it happens at Survivor Series in Chicago… the pop will be massive and it will be a special moment. And then I expect Punk will get absolutely buried as revenge for leaving in 2014

 

[DE4life]

There are a few reasons it'd surprise me, beyond the obvious:

1) The timing - for them to bring Punk back before the dust has even settled on the absolute shitstorm that was his final month in AEW seems a bit hasty. I know they want to "get one over" on AEW, but it just seems questionable to bring him back so soon without letting things calm down a little first. They can argue they want to strike whilst the iron is hot and there's buzz around Punk, but the reality is they don't need whatever extra revenue Punk would bring. They're doing very well as it is. I don't think waiting six months or a year would change much.

2) Backstage morale - kind of related to the above in that there are a lot of people in WWE who either had problems with Punk when he was there before, or are friends with the people he's gone after in AEW. There are some big names too who have directly spoken out against Punk - Reigns, Rollins, Cody, Kevin Owens, and probably a fair few more as well. Seems like a big risk to tank morale for benefits which would, in my view, not extend much beyond an initial pop on Punk's debut. We aren't talking a young talent with huge upside here, we're talking a 45 year old guy who has proven himself to be an unprofessional liability, injury prone and many steps down in-ring from his prime.

3) The Neutering of Punk's Character - who exactly is Punk going to be if he comes back to WWE? During his first run he was the rebel with staunch ideals, and basically the same in AEW. If he goes crawling back to the company he's been bashing for close to a decade, it kills everything he stood for previously. This is a guy who, for no reason, told Miz to "suck a blood covered Saudi dick" or something. His original character, and the one he's marketed himself as for a couple of decades now, is basically dead and buried if he returns to WWE. He'll be little more than a stooge who never really believed in anything he said - and at that point why would the fans believe anything he said either? He'll basically need to reinvent himself, which at his age is a risky move.

I won't say i'm utterly incredulous as it's wrestling, the ultimate carny business, and people will do anything to make more money. We've seen that countless times over the years. I just think there's a pretty big risk in bringing Punk back so soon, without, in my view, any signficant benefits which would justify it.

 

[The Grayfox]

My guess is nobody is worried about moral. There's some guys who have been in that locker room for a long time and likely have a lot of stroke. Punk must know that the kind of shit he did in AEW would never fly in WWE. Because it won't. You have the guys you mentioned; Rollins, Reigns, Owens, Cody along with vets like AJ Styles, Drew McIntyre, Randy Orton... those guys aren't going to let that shit fly. It just won't happen. Plus you've got Brock and Cena, part-timers yes, but who are there occasionally. This is a much different situation than The Young Bucks and Kenny Omega. No offense to those guys, but there just isn't a comparison.

Character-wise, I agree though. Really, they're going to have to make him a heel. He won't be taken seriously in a babyface role for the reasons you mentioned. If he had a character where he came out in a suit and played up how he only wants to be there for money, that could work. Problem is, it doesn't really go with his look. He's basically had the same character for 20+ years.

 

[DE4life]

You have to think if he does come back the contract will very specifically state that if he fucks up, he's gone. I also can't imagine it'll be anywhere close to the type of money AEW were paying him. There's no reason for WWE to offer him a big deal, and although I imagine it would be decent enough, he'll be many steps below where he was in AEW in terms of salary and creative control. Now granted salary probably doesn't matter that much to him as he must surely have enough money never to need to work again, which would make going back to WWE just a big fuck you to AEW. Losing creative control would likely be more difficult for him to swallow, but I guess if he's intent enough on sticking it to AEW he'll deal with that too. Almost feels like it'd be better for all parties if this was a pretty short deal, or only contained a handful of dates (similar to Edge's final WWE contract). If Punk's primary motivation is to give the middle finger to AEW then that will only keep him going for so long, once he's back in the mire of shit booking and backstage politics where he has had a lot of cards taken from his deck. If it's more important for him to screw AEW than adhere to his supposed morals then it'd make sense for this to be a short or limited deal, as I can't see him being happy long-term as a full-time WWE wrestler. I know he was also interested in 2019, but that was when he would have potentially had a lot more negotiating power.

It actually wouldn't surprise me if WWE brought Punk back as the same character. As ridiculous and fake as it would be, they probably assume a lot of their audience doesn't care about or even watch AEW, so none of them would know or particularly care about the backstage drama. They likely wouldn't be wrong either. It's very much WWE style to just ignore the wider context and focus on doing what they think will work within their bubble. Maybe it would. I really feel like it's going to happen now, so I'm expecting to find out soon enough.

 

[The Grayfox]

Yeah, somebody (maybe Hausman or SRS) said “it’s a safe bet that Punk will be at Survivor Series in Chicago.” I feel like this is all definitely a middle finger to AEW, from both Punk and WWE. What changed from a few years ago when WWE wouldn’t even entertain the idea of bringing him in? Nothing really. The only thing being that he went to AEW and made headlines for it, even if it was for the wrong reasons. You know Tony Khan wanted to keep him. It seems like there’s even MORE reason not to entertain it now than there was a few years ago. They could be looking at it as a way to offset Edge going over there but now there’s already reports that Edge isn’t moving the needle for AEW anyway. Punk IS still a draw, even if it’s for the wrong reasons. People will tune in and see what he has to say.

There’s also the possibility that this is for a Hall of Fame deal. Coming in, working a few matches and then going into the HOF. Seems a little early since Punk can still go but, who knows? I think the problem is creative. Punk seems himself as a main event, top of the card draw, but will WWE see him that way at this point? Especially with the talent they currently have. A Punk/Reigns feud could be really good because of Paul Heyman, but are they going to actually do that? Probably not, unless it’s just to feed Punk to Reigns really quick. You could put him on Raw and have him feud with Rollins, which I would actually like to see because of the real life (supposed) heat. The promos would be pretty good. I guess I just feel like if they bring him in and use him as a midcard talent, he will walk away again because he doesn’t see himself in that role. If it’s a Hall of Fame thing, a more short term deal, everybody kind of wins. We get the big pop for his return, some appearances, good promos and then a speech at the Hall of Fame.

We’ll see. This could also all fall through. If they can’t agree on terms, I’m sure Punk will walk away.

 

[DE4life]

Historically Edge has never really been a draw, for whatever reason. He's popular amongst fans who already watch the product, but he isn't the kind of name who brings new eyeballs to the show. I suppose he hasn't really transcended wrestling in the same way the likes of Cena, Rock, Austin and Punk have. As I said a few posts back, I think there are very few wrestlers who could move the needle for AEW. The aforementioned and maybe Reigns as well, but I don't think anybody else would have a significant impact. It's not a knock on Edge, it just is what it is.

It does seem a bit early for Punk to go into the HoF, but I guess it depends on how much longer he plans to be regularly active. The injuries from his AEW run suggests his body isn't really cut out for a full time schedule anymore, and he could still go into the HoF and work a part-time schedule. I think that would actually be best for him now. I definitely don't see Punk coming in and getting another run at the top. I think the risk/reward ratio skews too far in the risk direction, even if looking at it solely from an injury perspective. Punk was given the strap twice in AEW and almost immediately got injured afterwards both times. I also don't see many of the top guys being happy with putting Punk over, although I suppose if they're told to then they'll have no choice. It would be really surprising to see him go over Roman, Cody or Seth though.

 

[The Grayfox]

Well, Edge has his first official match with AEW tonight, so we'll see if that brings in more viewers. People have posted some pictures from recent AEW shows and it's brutal. Even if it is the hardcam side, it's still really bad.

SUPPOSEDLY, Triple H is back in charge of creative. But we were told that before also. It kind of tracks though.

 

[DE4life]

Whilst Triple H in creative has been better than Vince in many aspects, it hasn't been the transformation I was hoping for. I guess that's the difference between booking one hour weekly shows and quarterly PPVs versus multiple multi-hour weekly shows and monthly PPVs. He basically struck gold with the Bloodline storyline, but in my view everything surrounding that has been pretty average.

 

[DE4life]

Also hilarious to see NXT going 30 mins commercial-free, then AEW following suit. Net result - both shows lose ad revenue. Well done.

WWE seem to be going a bit over the top for NXT this week, purely because it's opposite Dynamite. I think they'd have a chance of beating Dynamite even without a stacked line-up, but why does a random Tuesday in October matter this much anyway?

 

[The Grayfox]

It’s like two children trying to one-up each other. Except one of those children has his face buried in coke and keeps making himself look like a lunatic. The guy who complains about tribalism in wrestling trying to create tribalism in wrestling. This guy runs a multimillion dollar business and he’s on twitter calling Triple H and Shawn Michaels “bald assholes.” Doesn’t he have more important things to worry about? He’s just making himself look like a complete idiot — as usual.

Bunch of reports came out today saying Punk and WWE are not in talks and “it isn’t happening.” Pretty strange reporting. Either somebody put a rumor out there and all the dirt sheet writers jumped on it prematurely or they’re trying to downplay it to keep it somewhat of a surprise. Punk’s debut on AEW was like the worst kept secret in wrestling at the time. Both sides could be trying to avoid that. This is sort of what happened with Cody when he returned to WWE. Reports going back and forth whether or not it was going to happen. Regardless, this is pro wrestling and you really can’t take anything at face value. Either way, I still think he’ll show up in Chicago at Survivor Series.

 

[DE4life]

On one side you have WWE somewhat childishly stacking NXT to a ridiculous level simply because it's opposite AEW, on the other side you have Khan acting like a squaredcircle mark. Just sad from all involved really. A lot of people seem to be enjoying it, but I'd rather both companies just focused on themselves rather than each other. There's the argument that WWE want to boost ratings because Raw and NXT are on the market at the moment, but come on. TV execs aren't dumb enough to look at the ratings of an abnormally stacked NXT show and assume that will be the norm. You aren't getting Cena and Taker showing up on NXT every week, this will probably be their one and only appearance on that show.

As far as Punk is concerned, wrestling journalism is somewhat of an oxymoron. For all the hate Meltzer gets, he's the one person who tends to get the entire story out there eventually - but typically that's after the fact, and sometimes long after the fact. I'm not sure he's ever broken a story before it happened, and those that attempt to may get lucky once in a while but are mainly relying on the wrestlers they have connections to not working them or being worked themselves - which has historically rarely been the case.

I don't think there's this much smoke without fire, but it's possible WWE have cooled their interest after the general reaction from the locker room. Not that this would typically bother them, but if a fair few genuinely top stars have voiced their opposition then they may take notice. Or it may be that they're trying to keep it as a surprise.

 

[The Grayfox]

Like you said, I don’t think WWE needed to stack NXT to beat AEW. It’s just a big ‘fuck you’ in an attempt not just to get a better rating, but to completely decimate them in the ratings, which to be fair, is probably what will happen. It could also be that USA is dictating this too. If they want to pop a big rating, they may have requested this. Tony Khan looks worse in this to me just because of his outbursts on Twitter and how he’s desperately playing catch-up. When WWE announced NXT would be commercial-free for the first half hour, AEW should have responded with something different; not waited a day and did the exact same thing. Again, it’s like children fighting. For me, the bottom line is competition is competition; WWE and WCW used to stack their shows if the other was preempted. This is nothing new and it’s a tactic to help drive your business. I get it.

Absolutely possible there were talks with Punk and they fell through for one reason or another. Also absolutely possible this is WWE and Punk’s way of trying to get people to believe it isn’t happening so there can still be the element of surprise. I guess we’ll see. Corey Graves using ‘subtle’ hints has me convinced though. We’ll see at Survivor Series I suppose. Either way, the CM Punk chants will be present and very loud I’m sure. Potentially at obnoxious levels. It could really hurt the show. Even more so if he doesn’t actually show up.

I’m 50/50 on it. I kind of want to see it happen because I want to hear the pop and kind of revel in the fact that Punk is standing in a WWE ring after a decade. But I’m sure that will wear off 5 minutes after it happens. And if it doesn’t happen, it’s not really a big deal. It also doesn’t mean it won’t happen in the future. A year from now, once things have really cooled off, it’ll still be a possibility.

 

[The Grayfox]

NXT won that 'war' by about 300,000 viewers. No surprise there. Tony Khan is on Twitter still acting like a jackass. No surprise there either.

Meltzer reports that WWE passed on Punk, who he claims was trying to return. So I guess that's that. Unless this is WWE's way of really trying to keep this under wraps, I don't think we'll be seeing him there. If they were ever entertaining the idea, it very well could have been talent that spoke up and said they didn't want him there. It does seem weird with Corey Graves making Punk references and Nakamura using the GTS at Fastlane but that could just be trolling on their parts.

 

[DE4life]

Yeah i don't think anybody expected AEW to beat NXT. I watched both shows and personally enjoyed NXT far more. I don't watch NXT regularly and obviously it was a completely different show to normal, but I thought it was interesting with some decent matches and solid character work. I felt like I understood most of the characters quickly despite not really following any of the NXT performers. I've never seen Ilja Dragunov before, and at first was like, what? he looks like Ellsworth with a chin. However, I thought he was good on the mic and in the ring. He's not the kind of guy Vince would ever get behind due to his size, but if it's true that Endeavour have backed Triple H and are just using Vince as a human shield to deflect bad PR, then maybe he has a chance. I also thought NXT did a great job of integrating their own talent with the legends/main roster guys. Overall I was entertained.

AEW, meanwhile, just felt like AEW. I haven't watched Dynamite for ages and Tuesday's show did nothing to make me want to watch it again going forwards. Just seemed to be the same old thing. AEW's lack of decent storylines and character development just kills any interest I have in it. The show was okay but not something I'd want to watch regularly. What they produce has an audience, but it's not for me.

It does seem like Punk is dead in the water - for now at least. Who knows how serious negotiations really were. Still wouldn't surprise me if he comes back further down the line at some point, as he's clearly open to the idea, but it seems like for now WWE isn't interested. If that is the case it'll be interesting to see if we get "CM Punk" chants in Chicago at Survivor Series. If not then I think that'll be an indication of how much Punk's behaviour has caused his star to fade, even in the eyes of those who have always previously backed him. I do expect we'll get some chants of that nature though.

Also Tony's dad needs to take away his phone. Dude is utterly embarrassing himself on Twitter/X. He's obviously taken this very personally, and it's not a good look for him or AEW. Just shut up, bro. take the L and move on. It's not like anyone seriously expected AEW to beat NXT in the ratings (and really, outside of IWC tribalists, who gives a shit?) - focus on making your own product better rather than lashing out at your competition.

 

[The Grayfox]

Tony Khan is a fucking embarrassment honestly. He’s on there bitching about who’s going to win Meltzer’s “booker of the year” award. Then he goes on there and tries to take a shot at Cena and Taker? Get the hell off your phone and go fix your company. How does a guy like Edge go somewhere like this where his new boss is behaving like a child? Is Jericho not embarrassed by this? I’m sure all they care about is the money involved here, but they must realize how juvenile their boss is. Even the AEW die hards are shaking their heads. Even though I’m sure it was a work, MJF’s promo rings true; “you got a position of power in a wrestling company, when the only position you should be assuming is behind the guardrail with all of them.”

Jim Cornette seems to think Punk will be back and this is all a smokescreen to try and recover from the fact that it got leaked ahead of time. Gotta say, it’s a definite possibility, especially with Triple H in charge. I don’t think it’s likely, but sure, it’s possible. It’s not like it would be difficult for Triple H to just say “yeah, it’s not going to work out” and then people leak that. Just saying…