Libertarianism

Well so far, a question that no one has wanted to answer, or in my mind has answered satisfactorily is: What is equal opportunity? Because I think very often people say opportunity but what they mean is outcome.

By default we are not all born with equal abilities, so it stands to reason that even with an "equal opportunity", people will end up with vastly different life outcomes, which seems to bother the more jealous among us.

Education is the basic necessity of course, and then some way to employ the knowledge to earn a living. Anything past this though is not "equal opportunity", but theft.

If someone is not as gifted, or not as industrious, or has made selfish/self defeating choices in life, they should not be forcibly buoyed by others.

What makes education a "basic necessity" but not food, housing or health care? Obviously a line has to be drawn somewhere between the government's responsibility to level the playing field and the parent's responsibility not to crap out more kids than they can afford, and I'm not exactly sure myself where that line falls, but I don't think you've addressed all the factors very thoroughly here.
 
I should have been more clear. I don't believe in government providing education either. If we were to have a public education system it should be a private charitable undertaking, the same for any other handout.

Government's sole responsibility (in my mind, and in a general libertarian view) is to protect an individual from other persons or the collective nation from an exterior threat.

The Blind Side was an excellent example of individualized charity. A full program. What it takes to improve an underprivileged life around is very often the love and care of another human being. Not some greenbacks in the wallet.

Socialism (in general), just throws hard earned money into an ever increasing black hole (no race pun insinuated). Education alone won't solve the problem, it takes a real support system, people caring.

Edit:

In a socialized society, most people won't do anything on an individual level
A. Because the government already taxes them to much
B. Because they feel absolved of any guilt for inaction because "I already pay taxes to help out the under-privileged.

De-centralization and promoting individual difference making while cutting out the government beaurocracy would see long term gains compared to the current system.
 
I should have been more clear. I don't believe in government providing education either.

lolwat
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How about posting something meaningful, like declining test scores (even amongst rampant "curve grading") instead of pictures of some dirty kids from decades ago? Or something about how allowing government control of education is a major conflict of interest?
 
I should have been more clear. I don't believe in government providing education either. If we were to have a public education system it should be a private charitable undertaking, the same for any other handout.

Government's sole responsibility (in my mind, and in a general libertarian view) is to protect an individual from other persons or the collective nation from an exterior threat.

The Blind Side was an excellent example of individualized charity. A full program. What it takes to improve an underprivileged life around is very often the love and care of another human being. Not some greenbacks in the wallet.

Socialism (in general), just throws hard earned money into an ever increasing black hole (no race pun insinuated). Education alone won't solve the problem, it takes a real support system, people caring.

Edit:

In a socialized society, most people won't do anything on an individual level
A. Because the government already taxes them to much
B. Because they feel absolved of any guilt for inaction because "I already pay taxes to help out the under-privileged.

De-centralization and promoting individual difference making while cutting out the government beaurocracy would see long term gains compared to the current system.

Sorry man, I just don't buy this "power of charity" crap. I'll try to read up on the Blind Side when I get a chance (feel free to provide non-shady links), but I doubt the existence of a single successful charity is going to convince me of the viability of a charity-based social safety net on the scale of the one our governments run. Also both of the premises you gave are flawed/incomplete:

A. does not account for tax-deductible donations, which make it possible for some people avoid paying "too much" in taxes by donating (I haven't done this myself though so I don't know quite how it works).

B. assumes that guilt would actually motivate people to donate if they didn't pay taxes to the social safety net. I personally don't know many people who give much of a damn about the less fortunate, and I've certainly never heard anyone claim that they don't give to charity simply because they pay these taxes.

One thing that did just occur to me after all this typing that I would be willing to concede to the "libertarian camp" is that it might be best to leave benefits programs to the States while federal taxes go solely to programs deemed acceptable by libertarian standards. That way the red states could keep their 'hard-earned' money, the blue states could run their lavish wealth distribution schemes, and anyone who didn't like it could just move a couple hundred miles off. If the red states ended up with a bunch of disgruntled impoverished people, they could deal with the riots themselves, and if the blue states ran up exorbitant debts they could deal with their own economic collapse. I think this may actually be the solution to our whole debate.
 
One thing that did just occur to me after all this typing that I would be willing to concede to the "libertarian camp" is that it might be best to leave benefits programs to the States while federal taxes go solely to programs deemed acceptable by libertarian standards. That way the red states could keep their 'hard-earned' money, the blue states could run their lavish wealth distribution schemes, and anyone who didn't like it could just move a couple hundred miles off. If the red states ended up with a bunch of disgruntled impoverished people, they could deal with the riots themselves, and if the blue states ran up exorbitant debts they could deal with their own economic collapse. I think this may actually be the solution to our whole debate.

I agree with this for the most part.
 
Well so far, a question that no one has wanted to answer, or in my mind has answered satisfactorily is: What is equal opportunity?
I think the main thing is the ability to break out of the cycle of poverty which many people do not have.

One thing that did just occur to me after all this typing that I would be willing to concede to the "libertarian camp" is that it might be best to leave benefits programs to the States while federal taxes go solely to programs deemed acceptable by libertarian standards. That way the red states could keep their 'hard-earned' money, the blue states could run their lavish wealth distribution schemes, and anyone who didn't like it could just move a couple hundred miles off. If the red states ended up with a bunch of disgruntled impoverished people, they could deal with the riots themselves, and if the blue states ran up exorbitant debts they could deal with their own economic collapse. I think this may actually be the solution to our whole debate.
I almost agree with you if only to have a nice "I told you so" when things started to suck even more in the South. The irony is that red states generally receive more federal money than they pay out and vice versa for blue states. So while these assholes bitch about large government the the blue states are bankrolling their roads, schools and hospitals.
 
I think the main thing is the ability to break out of the cycle of poverty which many people do not have.

But what actual ability is it that is lacked? Do they lack the education? Do they lack the motivation? Do they lack just a proper environment?
Just spreading money around doesn't fix the problem. Give the average low income person a reasonable sum of money and it will be blown in less than a year.
It's a lifestyle that has to be unlearned.

I almost agree with you if only to have a nice "I told you so" when things started to suck even more in the South. The irony is that red states generally receive more federal money than they pay out and vice versa for blue states. So while these assholes bitch about large government the the blue states are bankrolling their roads, schools and hospitals.

Only due to industrial and population density in the last 100 years in the Northeast, but those demographics are beginning to change. Regardless, I am not for state wealth redistribution. An interstate system is one thing, but state roads/schools/hospitals should be the respective concerns of each state.
 
But what actual ability is it that is lacked? Do they lack the education? Do they lack the motivation? Do they lack just a proper environment?
Just spreading money around doesn't fix the problem. Give the average low income person a reasonable sum of money and it will be blown in less than a year.
It's a lifestyle that has to be unlearned.
I agree that just sending barrels of money to poor people is a bad idea, but I don't agree with you that abolishing all forms of government programs and relying on charity is the solution. There is a clear historical example of that (basically all of pre-depression America) and that featured a large and exploited lower class. I don't know why you would want to go back to that. Are people so much nicer and more moral now that they will organize large and effective (and most likely unprofitable) charities and programs just for the good of their fellow man?


Only due to industrial and population density in the last 100 years in the Northeast, but those demographics are beginning to change.
I understand why it happens, I just wish the beneficiaries would be a little more honest about it.
 
I agree that just sending barrels of money to poor people is a bad idea, but I don't agree with you that abolishing all forms of government programs and relying on charity is the solution. There is a clear historical example of that (basically all of pre-depression America) and that featured a large and exploited lower class. I don't know why you would want to go back to that. Are people so much nicer and more moral now that they will organize large and effective (and most likely unprofitable) charities and programs just for the good of their fellow man?

Well a total makeover is needed on an individual as well as state and national level. I believe in starting at the root of problems instead of trying to change the symptoms, and the root of all organizations are the individuals.
Individuals used to sucking on a welfare state need to understand individual responsibility just as much as many others do. Individual responsibility is a big idea, but it is a much more sustainable model in the long term because it creates a lot of production, as opposed to the current model, which has created an ever increasing drain.

I understand why it happens, I just wish the beneficiaries would be a little more honest about it.

I don't have the stats to back this up, but I suspect one reason so much outside money has to go to many southern states is because of the % of underprivileged in those states vs the underprivileged in north eastern states. If those policies were made state based, you would see the states that couldn't afford it drop those programs, and so the leeches would swarm the socialist minded states, leaving the money to go specifically to things that benefit everyone, not just the unemployed.

Lazy people are usually pretty industrious when it comes to getting a jobless paycheck (from my personal acquaintances anyway).
 
From my point of view "Individual Responsibility" is just a meaningless buzzword and an easy way to justify social stratification.

From my point of view "social stratification" is just a buzzword used to justify government control and enslavement of uneducated people and theft from the industrious.
 
NOTE: I will be using "libertarianism" to mean a political philosophy in which the government takes a minimal role in running the country (i.e. mainly defending it from attackers and maintaining legal freedoms and order) and engages in no form of wealth redistribution between citizens (i.e. unemployment benefits, food stamps, health care, public housing, etc.).

Here is the argument:


1) Humans by nature are self-serving enough that any society in which they are given the opportunity to amass wealth with minimal interference (that is, a level of interference consistent with libertarian philosophy) will produce a small class of people who control a vast majority of the society's wealth and use that wealth primarily for their own benefit and to perpetuate the social order that has put them and those close to them at the top stratum of power. This trend is clearly evident in just about every society around the world.

2) The social order described in (1) is one in which the majority of people have so little economic freedom that the relative lack of freedom resulting from tax-funded public services that redistribute wealth is unlikely to ever compare as equal to or greater than that of (1), or even close to equal.

3) Because of (2), the implementation of libertarian philosophy in government is more likely than not to produce results that run counter to the goal of improving freedom in society.


So, I invite any libertarian who feels like taking that on to do so.


Well, I do not consider myself a libertarian, but I will address the issue.

At the founding of the United States of America, when what we now call libertarianism was at its strongest, almost every white male was a landowner. Up until after the Civil War this was still the case (more so in the South than in the North) and there were still very strong ties back to monarchy and a social caste. There was no need for social programs because everyone was self-employed working their land. The economy didn't matter so much because as long as you had land to work you could feed your family. This type of life is perfect suited for what libertarianism attempts to replicate in the modern age of technology and industry. This is, to put it bluntly, impossible.

Libertarianism, in that sense, will never work in today's world because without social programs people would not be able to feed themselves or their family. We no longer live in a world were people can go into their backyard and grow food. Most people (especially the ones that need social welfare) do not even have a yard anymore.

As for the merit based side of libertarianism; I believe that the way our current system stands is probably one of the best merit based systems in history. Having just finished a semester studying ancient China, the only flaw I can see in our current system is that the closest test we have to the Chinese meritocracy is the SATs which is a bullshit exam, especially considering that we do not have a standardized curriculum. I would much rather see a standardized AP testing system with only those achieving top scores (4-5) in all the AP classes getting placed into higher education. But that, too, would not work too well considering that the United States is no longer an industrial nation with a large demand for 'workers' and no one owns any land anymore so sending people back to work on the farms is out of the question.

Therefore, based on the fact that we no longer live in the 18th - early 19th century, libertarianism in its original, most basic interpretation, is no longer applicable. Of course, there is the question of how long this 'modern' and 'progressive' society can continue to stand with the majority of people being forced to live off of government checks, but that is a different discussion I think, one that simple libertarianism cannot fix.
 
The entire current system is a broken system set up to funnel the majority of production benefits to the very top and let just enough trickle down to the bottom to keep the bottom tier somewhat docile.
It was set up that way by the british banking elite to start with. But that gets into so-called "conspiracy".

Libertarianism as an entire way of living and doing things on an individual level would solve these problems as it took hold on a wide scale, but it would be to the complete destruction of the current economic and political systems.
 
buying luxury items for oneself

Is this fact relevant to your political views or is it just a random example you came up with?

bribing public officials to overlook illegal behavior

It's hard to tell how much of a problem this would be. I guess there are different kinds of scenarios one could dream up. Suppose there is a dearth of evidence such that no reasonable legal system would convict the accused rich person. Then they would have little or no reason to bribe public officials. On the other hand, suppose the accused rich person has every reason in the world to bribe public officials, then it stands to reason that the evidence against them would likely have them convicted in a reasonable court of law. But then if the evidence weighs so heavily against such a person, it's hard to see why anyone of any repute would want to do business with such a person again, given that all of this information would likely become known by the general public. Such a person's livelihood and reputation would be toast. Who knows? Maybe they'd see that as a reasonable trade-off. I'm not sure. But what exactly do you propose? Do you propose taking their money away from them beforehand so as to diminish economic inequality? It seems to me that what it would take to reduce inequality enough so that these negative things are unlikely or nonexistent would be enough to have pretty bad consequences for the economy.

or donating to politicians in order to win support for legislation that unfairly benefits a company one owns.

Under what sort of regime would this be more likely? One in which the state is involved in the economy or one in which it isn't? I advocate for the total separation of business and state. How do we ensure that? Your guess is as good as mine.

I realise that there have been magnanimous business moguls throughout history who give much of their money back to the community, but they appear to be the exception rather than the rule.

Rich people don't even have to be magnanimous or have altruistic intentions in order to "give back to the community." Economic growth depends at least in part on capital accumulation and this requires savings. This is where those evil rich people come in, the ones with all those nasty profits. This, along with scientific innovation, has done far more to raise the standard of living than any redistribution scheme could ever do. In fact, it's sometimes argued that welfare programs reduce productivity. Some would argue that they only lessen productivity to a very small degree. But the bigger picture tells a different story. If between 1870 and 1990 the annual growth rate of America's gross domestic product had been 1 percentage point lower , America's per capita GDP would be less than one-third its present level. That would put it on a par with Mexico, and Mexico is a veritable shithole; believe me, I've been there many times. And in the US we don't even have that big of a welfare state, relatively speaking!

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "regulatory capture and rent-seeking" (I'm not familiar with these terms), but if by that you basically mean the act of manipulating legislators and laws for personal profit and/or an unfair competitive advantage, you're going to have to do some explaining to convince me that a more regulated government, as a rule, tends to favor such a thing.

Regulatory capture is when purportedly well-intentioned regulations end up benefiting special interests at the expense of others because those special interests invest enough cash flow, time, and energy into getting potential regulations of their particular industry to be crafted for their benefit. Rent seeking usually involves a business gaming the system to extract rent without doing anything productive. That is, they make use of government force to benefit their bottom line at the expense of others by way of regulations, subsidies, etc. The history of regulation in the states is littered with capture and rent seeking. I don't know about other countries. I'd give you a list of examples but I'm too lazy to look through my literature and this post is already on the verge of being tl;dr. Maybe in a subsequent post.

Do you mean to say that certain types of regulation (i.e. graduated income tax, inheritance tax, or anti-trust laws) will result in more corruption, that each act of corruption will tend to be more more damaging, or both of the above? I think we agree that the economy has to be competitive in order to be beneficial to the greatest number of people, but how can it be competitive if there's nothing stopping a handful of people from hoarding away the majority of the country's wealth?

I don't know enough about the details of taxation to say much, but I do have an opinion on antitrust legislation; I think it's a disaster.

I'd like to know why you think a handful of people are HOARDING away the majority of the country's wealth. It's not like they're putting their money under their mattresses. So what in the world do you mean? And what is the connection between this and competitiveness?

When the vast majority of wealth in a society is controlled by a tiny minority of people whose aim is to keep themselves in control, the economy becomes less competitive, which results in higher costs of living and fewer career opportunities for the average person, therefore less economic freedom.

In the absence of government force on their behalf the only way these people are likely to be so rich is if they sell people something they like/want/need at a lower price than their competitors. How would that result in a higher cost of living? I'm confused by your argument here.
 
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