Little Labs Redeye, problem with signal level

Red Phoenix

Red Phoenix

Member
Jun 22, 2009
442
0
16
Germany
hey guys,

i got a problem with my little labs redeye. The output signal from the redeye seems to be too low in comparison to the original signal level and the background noise is higher than by non-reamping. i use a passive guitar and somewhere i've read that the redeye is not the best choice for these guitars?! But if thats true i don't know why. I recorded some samples to show what i mean. some older redeyes might have not a pad switch like mine which is explained in the manual as this "Pad is an internal push switch reachable by a thin screwdriver to select the reamp in pad for +4dBm line level sources (pad in) default. Pad outwill give you an extra 6dB of gain if needed which would be rare"
The outputlevel in my daw and my audiointerface (Edirol UA-25EX) are at maximum. also the level knob at the redeye and i also set the pad switch to extra 6dB and thats not enoug output to achieve the same outputlevel as the normal guitar i used for the DI.
When i exclude the redeye from the signalpath while reamping ( going direkt from the interface into the amp) the signal level is as it should be, but the impedances are wrong now and the result is much more background noise.

whats going on with my redeye? do other redeye user have the same behaviour? or do i something wrong? i use normal balanced xlr-cable and an insturment cable to connect the redeye to the interface and the amp.

cheers
Lars


recorded_guitar_without_reamping
reamp_direct_from_interface_into_amp_without_redeye
reamp_with_redeye_and_pad_in
reamp_with_redeye_and_pad_out
 
Maybe you should don`t use pad, i.e. get as much level as you can.
Specification of your card says that output level is "* Maximum Output level: Nominal Output Level + 12 dB" (I`m guess +12 dbu or, maybe, dbV), for example mixers and many interfaces have around +20 dbu. I.e. output level is not big.
 
We have run into this exact problem. The only way we found to correct it is to run a class A boost after the Re-amp box. If you use a class B boost it will smiply clip the signal, but a class A will actually raise the level cleanly. The only ones we have been able to find are the Joe Meek gbdb and the Radial BigShot PB1. The interface alone doesn't have enough gain to push the clean signal up to where it needs to be.

Hope that helps.
 
That the audiointerface doesn't have enough power is definetly a new point of view for me. Until now i didn't know that not all interfaces have the exact same output signal level :S
Can you eliminate the possibility that the redeye is damaged at it's definetly the fault of the audiointerface?
Such a Class A(/B ..don't now the difference) booster is quite expensive :/
 
I would be very surprised if it had anything to do with the redeye. I have seen exact situation happen before, and it was with a different Re-amp box. You can use a class B boost and it will help out but it will not be transparent. In other words, it will add color to your tone, which could be a good or bad thing. The class A boosts are more expensive but they will allow you to have your Re-amp tracks sound very close to a live take. I'm not sure of the differences between interfaces and their output levels. You may want to look into upgrading to an interface with more output gain as that would also most likely solve the problem.
 
yeah i guess another interface would be the better choice instead of a booster...
A "RME Fireface 800" which jipchen uses seems to have the same outputlevel..he uses the +4db setting and he does not have that problem. but he has an older redeye version....confusing ...
the most interfaces i found are more ore less ídentical.
 
Hey Ultimate Metal Mateys it's me Little Labs! Google alerts made me aware of this post, so I registered to get on this forum to help.
I think what needs to be addressed here is if you are getting your levels right into your DAW. The Redeye DI does require you use a microphone preamplifier as all passive DIs do, to get the proper level to tape or DAW. So make sure that is happening or else your levels are going to be way off. The newer Redeye 3D makes getting that level right easy, but as long as you have a mic preamp and you are getting a solid level into your DAW (+4dB) the original redeye will do it just fine. if this is the case, you should have more than enough level coming back through the re-amp section of the Redeye, . You should absolutely not need a booster of any kind, who ever was doing that was doing a band-aid approach and was not addressing the real problem. If the level was right ( but impedance wrong) coming right off your DAW, You definitely did not get the right level onto your DAW in the first place. Feel free to call me or email me at littlelabs@littlelabs.com for further assistance. You'll be talking directly to the designer and I'm here to help.
Jonathan
Little Labs
Pro Audio Design, Manufacturing and Consulting
http://www.littlelabs.com/
vox/fax: 323.851.6860
 
Holy crap, when did the new Red Eye come out? Got an upgrade program :)

Looks like I'll need to sell my Redeye and get one of the new ones.
 
I wish there was an upgrade program as well! I'd love a Phantom 3D, but there's nothing wrong with my original Redeye.

Btw, with my setup I actually found that the most similar reamp level to actual guitar level was the Redeye with the Pad IN. Having the Pad out made my signal a bit hotter and more distorted through the 5150. This is for passive pickups, as well
 
Jonathan, can you tell what exactly level reduction is with pad and without it?
Or without pad device has unity gain?
I don`t have red eye, but want to know more about it :)

From my experience even reamper with unity gain need sufficient interface output level, not only +4 dbu standard, but large maximum output level, like mentioned FF800 (+19 dbu).
 
Hey Jonathan, thanks for joining the forum and posting your advice. It's good to hear that i (normaly) do not need any booster.

My Edirol Interface has got two mic preamps with combined xlr/phone jack inputs with the following specifications:

Nominal Input Level:
Input Jack L, R (XLR type)
-60 to -20 dBu
Input Jack L, R (1/4 inch TRS phone type)
-36 to +4 dBu
* Maximum Input level: Nominal Input Level + 12 dB

I generally used only the xlr-inputs because of the xlr output jack of the redeye.
so i should better use the phone in of the Interface to get the right input level?
But i guess it will only clipp....i try it out when i get home!
 
Sooo...the input level is higher when i use the phone jack instead of the xlr-input. but the result is the same. it's not surprising because i can also simply normalize the DI track to achieve that. And on my posted samples i had already normalised to 0% reduction.. when i further raise the DI track level it clipps and is unuseable. the output of the interface is also at the absolute maximum..there's nothing left to further raise the gain.
when i play the di track in the daw the peak indicator of the DI channel (and outputchannel too) is at about -1db. At 0db it start clipping (Who would have thought it)
There's still something wrong...


Edit:

First: My Interface got a +4dBu output.seems to be the standard..the redeye wants to have a +4dBm signal..whats the difference?

Second: i found something SIMPLE i did wrong.... the phone jack outputs from my interface are stereo types -> balanced ...i missunderstood what that meant. i pluged in a normal mono-phonejack-xlr-adapter and then go with a xlr cable (in combination with the adapter its unbalanced?) in the redeye. less background noise but low signal level. now i studied again the redeye manual and then the interface manual and then what un-/balanced mean...now i tryed another cable which i sorted out because it generates much more background noise. it's a stereo-phonejack-xlr cable (i guess balanced). In combination with the "pad out" (+6dB) i get very close to the right signal level. but the background noise is too loud. why? ..as i understand balanced cables take out the background noise and unbalanced not. why does my balanced cable generates much more? it's more high quality than the other.
 
First of all, you can daisy chain the old redeye with the new Redeye3D, using the expansion in and out jacks so you can re-amp to as many amps as Redeyes with complete transformer isolation. If you use at least one of the new Redye 3Ds in conjunction with a mic pre, you can split off, in a very high quality fashion, to as many amps as Redeyes LIVE. Here is a link to a pdf of the new Redeye 3D and you can see the diagram for the hook up. http://www.littlelabs.com/redeye3dpweb.pdf


Ok Red, on your interface always use the XLR in, from the xlr out of the redeye when recording the track. The XLR input on your interface is mic level the 1/4" is for line level.
So are you getting a proper level into the computer? That is essentialI, I just googled it and it doesn't have level meters so do what you have to do to get the level right. In this case with your interface use a trs to trs (stereo type) coming out of your interface into the Redeye expansion input, and select on the Redeye the expansion in (button pushed in on the front). Now if this was done correctly and lets say you are recording a track and hitting the occasional peak of +12dB on the Edirol recorder (max), coming back through the Redeye, pad in, you would be hitting your amp with an occasional peak of -2dB, and that's loud with pad out +4dB and that would definitely be overloading your amp. So obviously I can't be there to suss out your cables and see what's up, but something just ain't right. The Redeye can't add noise unless you sit it on top of a power transformer and not much can go wrong with the unit 'cept for maybe a dirty switch.
I hope you’re following me, and as I said on my first post, you might want to call, I’m pretty busy and a lousy typer!
J
 
Red Phoenix said:
Second: i found something SIMPLE i did wrong.... the phone jack outputs from my interface are stereo types -> balanced ...i missunderstood what that meant. i pluged in a normal mono-phonejack-xlr-adapter and then go with a xlr cable (in combination with the adapter its unbalanced?) in the redeye. less background noise but low signal level. now i studied again the redeye manual and then the interface manual and then what un-/balanced mean...now i tryed another cable which i sorted out because it generates much more background noise. it's a stereo-phonejack-xlr cable (i guess balanced). In combination with the "pad out" (+6dB) i get very close to the right signal level. but the background noise is too loud. why? ..as i understand balanced cables take out the background noise and unbalanced not. why does my balanced cable generates much more? it's more high quality than the other.
Click to expand...
That's exactly what I tried to tell you over at the musikerboard :bah: :D
It didn't make any difference in noise or signal level in my case, but it's still a good idea to use a balanced connection if there is one.
Really strange you get more noise with the balanced connection, shouldn't be like that.

@littlelabs: Really cool of you to chime in, Jonathan
 
I was at the musicstore and discuss there my problem. Now with a trs-cable i got the right signal level with "pad in" when i normalised the DI track to 0dB reduction in the DAW. the guy at the store says that the backgroud noise comes from the "cheap" audiointerface micpreamps or the AD/DA-converter. When i reamp Jeffs rose DI track i get less background noise. So i guess that this problem arise from recording the DI track. Using the sensivity knob of the micpreamp there is no change in noise relating to the signal level.

@Jonathan
thanks for your help and that i could call you :) but my speaking english is very bad and understanding even worse. i need to read it and a dictionary .. :S
But i guess the fault is located. again, thanks for joining in!

@jipchen
sorry that i did not understand what you have tried to explain :D yeah...you see i'm a n00b ;) but now i got it.
you said that you do not normalise the DI tracks. what are the maximum peaks of your DI tracks?
 
Haha, kein Ding ;) Ich war mir ja auch nicht ganz sicher ob es am Kabel lag.. weils bei mir keinen Unterschied gemacht hat.
Ich hatte den Eindruck dass du dich gut auskennst weil du (im Gegenteil zu 99% der Leute) offensichtlich die Bedienungsanleitung aufmerksam gelesen hattest.

My DI tracks usually peak at about -4 db in the DAW (Logic), sometimes a bit hotter.
The loudest parts are usually the palm mutes, they give you a good idea of how hot you can track the guitar DIs.
But there's nothing wrong with normalizing DIs for heavily distorted / hi-gain sounds, imho.
I would only be careful with reamping clean sounds, because you might get unwanted distortion if the track peaks at 0 db in your DAW.
 
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