Looking for some advice

[Netphyx]

Hi guys

So I've been lurking around the forum for a few days. Decided to make an account and this is my first post .

A little background story: I have been producing electronic music for about 2 years (just for fun), but in my spare time I've always listened to post-hardcore bands. Particularly bands that Joey mixed, I have noticed. Anyway, since post-hardcore is my real passion, I decided to try and create my own mixes.

I started a learning project consisting of a 9-second breakdown. What I am trying to achieve is something that some members of the forum have already done: something like Scott Cumming's track http://soundcloud.com/teddynamek/working-progress-no-leads or Jacob Mares' . Figured it had a Joey Sturgis style to it, that's why I posted here.

Now I'd like to get some feedback on what I have put together in the past few days. I know there's something wrong, but I don't know how to fix it and I was hoping someone on this forum could tell me how. Since I am a newbie in mixing post-hardcore, a link to a specific lesson / tutorial or just general advice would also be more than welcome!

The mix in question consists of a guitar and a drum kit and is located at http://www.netphyx.be/test4.mp3. I isolated the drum track to http://www.netphyx.be/test4_drums.mp3 and the guitar track to http://www.netphyx.be/test4_guitar.mp3. Previous versions can be found at test1.mp3, test2.mp3 etc.

What I think is wrong with it: the guitar tone is bad to start with. I have read on the forum that "Cali Diamond Plate" is a popular amp, but unfortunately I only have the free version of Pod Farm so I can't use that one for the moment. However, I don't believe purchasing Cali Diamond Plate would solve the matter entirely. I think the track needs a bass guitar to beef up the overall guitar tone. Is this assumption correct? Tried to emulate a bass guitar tone with an sine oscillator, but that didn't work out very well so I left it out for the moment. As for the drums I was pretty happy. But I'm sure there's a lot of room for improvement.

My chain for the guitar:
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Guitar -> pedal increasing the output of clean sound -> TonePort UX1 (with Pod Farm settings Noise Gate -> Screamer -> Brit J-800 -> Brit Celest -> Compressor -> Cavernous) -> EQ in my DAW -> Compressor in my DAW -> keFIR for Impulse Response.

After this I routed the track to 2 other tracks: one hard panned to the left, the other to the right. In one of the tracks I did a slight pitch shift of about 3 cents.


My chain for the drums:
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Each element of the drum kit is in a separate track, equalised and some compressed. Then I grouped the tracks and added a compressor and limiter on the group track.


Mastering
----------------------
Added a compressor and Ozone 5.


Any advice on how to improve my mix? Looking forward to learn more!
(Thanks in advance)

 

[CalumJC]

Hi there!

I listened to the youtube track and the track in question and firstly, you're never going to achieve a thick/wide guitar tone if you're not double tracking and panning left and right (hard panning works best). Bass guitar is also a must as it is about 80% of the overall guitar tone imo.

In the basic pod farm pack the closest thing to the cali diamond plate is the 2001 treadplate dual. There are plenty of threads knocking about on here to do with it so it wont be hard to get something good from it.

To summarise, double track the rhythm guitar, pan hard left and right and have a bass track in the middle. youll hear a MASSIVE difference.

 

[oroinvictus]

You need panned guitars, first off. I'm only hearing the one rhythm and lead. The guitar tone also sounds heavily overgained and possibly overcompressed. Like CalcumJC said, ideally for this kind of music, you want double rhythms panned hard L/R and a mono bass.

 

[timislegend]

here is what i think is going on more and more these days -take it or leave it.

there is no context in half of these arrangements i hear on this forum (rate my mix) and what-have-you. these are impossible to critique purely because there is zero contextual music happening. we can argue about plugin chains until the sun goes down but all we are doing is mucking about. these are opinions about what we might think will possibly "help" and amateur "mix".

i would hate to discredit your current mix because i have no idea where the song is going. it's not even really a song... it's an excerpt. i mean, when we watch television commercials do we listen to the canned, licensed, 15 second drum loop in the bed of the sound track and say things like, "hmmm, i think that drum loop needs more compression... or reverb." ??? ...i know i don't. because it's not a song and could give two shits about the musical context of a toothbrush commercial.

so my advice would be ...write a song. a full song, from beginning to end. because if the song is good, it will completely change the context of the "mix". which will inevitably improve your mix decisions in the future.

 

[Netphyx]

Thanks for the feedback. I will definitely record a second track and look around for a new patch. I don't have a bass guitar, but maybe I can lend one from a friend. When I have some new results I will post them here, but it looks like I'm going to have to search some tutorials about double tracking first .

@timislegend: You are right. I will write a complete song. You didn't have to say it that harsh though, but maybe I would do the same if I were a good producer and saw a newbie question. I'm sorry if this pissed you off.

 

[CalumJC]

Double tracking: Record your rhythm guitar part. Then record exactly the same take on a different track. Pan one hard right, pan one hard left.

that's all there is to it really.

 

[timislegend]

You are right. I will write a complete song. You didn't have to say it that harsh though, but maybe I would do the same if I were a good producer and saw a newbie question. I'm sorry if this pissed you off.

i think you are taking it the wrong way... text is an extremely sterile environment and i can assure you the intention of my comment was not malicious or nonconstructive. there is really no other way for me to say it other than sugarcoating or baby talking... and that's just not my style.

i guess i could have told you that the drums sound too programmed and there was absolutely zero stereo image with the guitars. i could've also said that the editing on the guitars sounded so artificial that i assumed they were programmed in guitar pro (or software alike) ...i'm sure i could've potentially had a go with your entire approach ...but i just said, the song was too short for me to even make any of those assertions.

i am not going to be passive aggressive. i'm going to give you the only criticism /advice i believe to be relevant to the nature of your example. anything else would've just been my opinion and we all know opinions are like assholes... everybody has one and most of them smell of shit.

i ain't mad bro...

 

[Netphyx]

Alright, I've been doing some learning via the forum and then found this thread: http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/...dcore-how-many-you-would-mix-if-i-posted.html.

First of all: thanks Cory for posting this! It was a really helpful exercise and it gave me the chance to mix a full song this time.

So here's my shot at mixing the stems: http://www.netphyx.be/LOLNice-NetphyxMix.mp3. I split the guitar over two tracks now, but I did the same with the drums as I did in my previous project: each part of the kit in a seperate track and then I grouped all those tracks together in a shared track with a compressor and limiter. Is this a good way to mix drums?

I know the snare sounds bad, but that's the sample and I don't have many samples. So I'm considering buying the Chango samples. Would you guys recommend those? Because their website looks fishy and I can't find any previews, so I guess I'll have to trust you blindly .

 

[DullElysium]

I know the snare sounds bad, but that's the sample and I don't have many samples. So I'm considering buying the Chango samples. Would you guys recommend those? Because their website looks fishy and I can't find any previews, so I guess I'll have to trust you blindly .

I can't sat much about the chango samples other than some like them and some don't.
Personally i'd suggest you to search the free ones other people have posted here. FBR samples, snare4u, and the whole erkans organized samples pack if you will. And theres quite many people constantly giving freeones for the community.

Then theres odcourse slate and sturgis samples to think of if you wan't to buy the "industry standards"

 

[Netphyx]

Thanks DullElysium! Found Erkan's organised pack and there are some good snares in there . Slate is definitely too expensive for me as I'm a student, but maybe I'll buy the Sturgis samples in a later stage.

 

[timislegend]

woah... ok, here it goes.

- the guitars don't even sound like guitars to me.
- guitars are way too loud.
- there is almost no bass.
- the drums sound ridiculously artificial (esp the one cymbal).
- where are the toms?
- the main, melodic vocals are buried by the harmony and other parts as the song goes on.
- it sounds like i'm listening to the song from an iphone speaker.
- the song structure completely falls apart during the tempo change (supreme train wreck).

if i may be so bold, it sounds like the stems were just imported into a session, slapped a crumby guitar rig preset on the guitars and bounced it. if there is anything you need improvement on, it would be resources.

get a drum library that sounds good or learn how to make a bad sample work in a mix.

start with the arrangement and tighten everything up before you move on to the next stage. then, once you know for a fact that the song works, you can make a rough level mix, (which is just mixing the levels of the tracks -as well as panning). this will help you organize a clean, even level mix that will more than likely translate into a good overall mix. headroom is key. if your master is peaking passed -13db (+/-) your levels are too loud. as soon as you feel comfortable with the levels of all the tracks, you can move on to creative mix decisions... this is what makes or breaks you. everything in a mix depends on what the song needs. additive, subtractive equalization. limiting over compressing (or vise versa). multi band compression, transient design, frequency enhancement. all of this is what translates your ability to mix a song. it's all a puzzle and every processor you use is a piece to the puzzle.

finally, during the mastering stage you can decide how you want to glue everything together. think of it as a pie, all the ingredients are there based on the recipe and once you put it into the oven and cook it, it will be ready to eat. ...you wouldn't serve you guests uncooked pie would you?

if your master sounds too different from the mix, then you have failed because all a master is, is a maximized version of the mix.


i really hope any of this helps.