Meshuggah Talks S*#% On Nightwish

[BlackRoseMetalHeart]

I saw The End of an Era dvd by Nightwish and that concert is as metal as Hannah Montana. Tarja was a joke (she looked and acted like your average pop diva), and the audience was a joke (they looked like the audience for the Mickey Mouse Club). Like I've said somewhere else most of these female fronted bands are killing the integrity of the genere, much like hair metal bands did back in the day.

I won't disagree with the point about Tarja acting or appearing like a pop star, but the second part of this statement makes you look really sexist. You could have said that operatic bands, or symphonic bands, or pop-oriented bands are causing the genre to loose integrity - and I would still probably disagree - but at least you wouldn't come across as a narrow-minded sexist by basically saying that women can't sing metal.

There are plenty of bands (Kamelot has already been mentioned, Rhapsody, After Forever, and Within Temptation, and to a certain degree even T.S.O. which is basically Savatage - and I think we would struggle to find folks on this board who do not consider Savatage metal) who could fall into the same genre as Nightwish, whether you want to call them metal or otherwise. All are heavy, powerful, symphonic, and incorporate operatic or melodic vocals. I personally don't feel any of these bands are killing the integrity the genre, diversifying certainly, but not killing it's integrity.

Everyone's allowed their opinion. So let Hagström have his. I personally don't give two craps about Meshuggah, their music, or their guitar players opinion. So at the end of the day, he can still think whatever he wants to think and I will still be a metal fan who's giving my money and my attention to the bands that are in his opinion "formula music," "a fucking insult" or "not fucking metal" enough to be on the same label with him. That is why those bands are on Nuclear Blast ... because as AMBR stated, (if you're a smart record label) you sign what sells. And Nuclear Blast is laughing, like the"fools" they are, all the way to the bank.

 

[adaher]

Am I surprised that musicians involved in the more extreme Metal genres don't view Nightwish as Metal? Not even a little. If we're being fair, the melodies Nightwish employs, share more common ground with Pop Music than they do with Black or Death Metal.

Well, melodies don't define a genre, it's the way those melodies are arranged and played.

Huge freakin' guitar sound generally = metal. Add some double bass drumming and you're indisputably metal.

These European metal bands are so melodic because they draw from influences that aren't all metal, and they've fused those pop melodies onto a wall of metal sound to create something fresh and new.

 

[General Zod]

Well, melodies don't define a genre, it's the way those melodies are arranged and played.

No one element defines a genre.

Huge freakin' guitar sound generally = metal. Add some double bass drumming and you're indisputably metal.

And that was sort of the point of my post... the line is different for everyone. What you just posted, that's your line, not the "indisputable" line. If it was indisputable, Hagström wouldn't be disputing it.

Zod

 

[oldboy]

Blackrosemetalheart I am afraid that maybe your own prejudice (that men tend to be sexist?) led you to a hasty conclusion. I can not help you there, but I can try to explain my point better.
I do not think that female fronted bands are killing the integrity of the genre because they are female fronted, just like I do not think that hair metal bands killed the integrity of the genre because they had big hair. Some hair metal bands had a lot of talent and integrity (Tykketo), and the same can be said of some female fronted bands (Therion, Arch Enemy). But I do think that these two styles have in common the fact that they are commonly used by people who are not into this music at all, and only want to make a quick buck from a fad.
So my argument is very simple. Whoever is playing a style of music simply to make a quick buck from a passing fad is killing the integrity of that style. And whoever is buying their records is killing the integrity of that style too.

 

[adaher]

And that was sort of the point of my post... the line is different for everyone. What you just posted, that's your line, not the "indisputable" line. If it was indisputable, Hagström wouldn't be disputing it.


Objectively, what he says doesn't make sense. He's basically saying that anything less extreme than black or death is not metal.

 

[dcowboys311]

He actually didn't say anything like that at all -- thrash, doom, folk, prog, etc don't even come close to coming up in the conversation. And it's not like he said that power metal isn't metal. He said that a band with a pop singer, pop stage presence, pop song structures, and pop like shows isn't metal.

But you're free to read into this however you want to.

 

[adaher]

Oldboy, there are way too many Evanescence and Nightwish clones oversaturating that market, but that's certainly not Nightwish's fault. They were doing what they were doing long before it was cool and they continue to get better with each album.

 

[Cheiron]

I personally don't give two craps about Meshuggah, their music, or their guitar players opinion. So at the end of the day, he can still think whatever he wants to think and I will still be a metal fan who's giving my money and my attention to the bands that are in his opinion "formula music," "a fucking insult" or "not fucking metal" enough to be on the same label with him. That is why those bands are on Nuclear Blast ... because as AMBR stated, (if you're a smart record label) you sign what sells. And Nuclear Blast is laughing, like the"fools" they are, all the way to the bank.

Your post indicates that you do give a damn.

 

[General Zod]

Objectively, what he says doesn't make sense.

Can art be measured objectively? I don't believe it can. As I said in my original post, we all have a diferent line in the sand. Yours is different than his.

He's basically saying that anything less extreme than black or death is not metal.

When I read his comments, that's not what I come away with. I'm inclined to agree with what dcowboys311 just wrote.

Oldboy, there are way too many Evanescence and Nightwish clones oversaturating that market, but that's certainly not Nightwish's fault. They were doing what they were doing long before it was cool and they continue to get better with each album.

Agreed. And to his credit, Hagström avoids being critical of the music, even though he doesn't like it. Most people are inclined to completely trash that which they don't like, rather than simply recognize it's not their cup of tea. All in all, he's really only taking issue with their classification and marketing.

Zod

 

[St Enigma]

He said that a band with a pop singer, pop stage presence, pop song structures, and pop like shows isn't metal.

Yeah, and he especially named Nightwish as the pop singer fronted non-metal band.

Now tell me what is the lacking factor in this song Nightwish performed live last nigh in Rotterdam, Holland which limits Nightwish out of being a metal band? It's not their heaviest nor their simplest song, though.




I cant see nor hear a pop singer, but a clean, very powerful voice of a gorgeous female singer. I can't figure out pop song structures but loads of progressive and symphonic elements with odd time changes and a very complex structure. Also drumming and guitar work weren't composed according to the chapter including the simplest gimmikcs in the book of heavy metal. Despite the best of my efforts I can't see elements of a pop-like show in this clip. Maybe it's the large amount of pyros, then?

But like said, we all have different frames to put up our own sandbox for metal.

.

 

[Dolamite S. Biffle]

*Brent takes your junior mints and throws them in the floor!

Hell, they only cost you $1.25 with the employee discount... :|

 

[mëtålspëd]

I dont think anyone mentioned it yet, but bravo on the thread headline Biff... very Springer-esque

 

[BlackRoseMetalHeart]

Blackrosemetalheart I am afraid that maybe your own prejudice (that men tend to be sexist?) led you to a hasty conclusion. I can not help you there, but I can try to explain my point better.
I do not think that female fronted bands are killing the integrity of the genre because they are female fronted, just like I do not think that hair metal bands killed the integrity of the genre because they had big hair. Some hair metal bands had a lot of talent and integrity (Tykketo), and the same can be said of some female fronted bands (Therion, Arch Enemy). But I do think that these two styles have in common the fact that they are commonly used by people who are not into this music at all, and only want to make a quick buck from a fad.
So my argument is very simple. Whoever is playing a style of music simply to make a quick buck from a passing fad is killing the integrity of that style. And whoever is buying their records is killing the integrity of that style too.

Your points make a lot more sense to me now that you have clarified them a bit more. (It also probably helps that I'm not reading this at 2 am.) I don't assume all men are sexist. I know plenty who aren't. But in the arena of metal I have encountered many who do hold the view that women don't belong on stage, so I am sorry for misinterpreting your comments and lumping you in with that group of thought.

I think, however, that it is more of the record companies, and not the actual bands, that are "killing the integrity of that style" as you consider it. I don't think most of these bands set out and say, I want to sell a bunch or records so we'll have a woman sing. (Perhaps a record company signs them because they think they will sell more based on this, but) I think more women are enjoying metal these days and thus there are more of them want to also create that heavy (but often still melodic) style of music.

Many of the female fronted bands I've encountered are actually afraid to classify themselves as female fronted because of the negative stigma that goes along with that classification - that somehow because you have a female singer you are playing off a gimmick or that you don't have any real talent, which as you have already expressed by citing Therion and Arch Enemy is not necessarily true.

But as many on this thread have already stated, it's a matter of who's drawing that line and where you choose to draw it. A lot of power metal bands are melodic, formulaic in their writing, use clean vocals, and some use symphonic elements. Does that make them not metal or any less metal than a band that composes songs with 16 different parts and has a singer that sounds like cookie monster? It just seems that many of the female fronted bands that I've heard people trash are referred to as pop-metal simply because they have a female singer, not because their writing is simplistic, because most of the time it isn't simple. Just because something is melodic doesn't make it pop, I can at least agree with Hagström on that much.

 

[General Zod]

Now tell me what is the lacking factor in this song Nightwish performed live last nigh in Rotterdam, Holland which limits Nightwish out of being a metal band?

Actually, I think a song like this goes a long way towards proving Hagström's point. What about this song do you find to be so intrinsically "Metal"? The instrument loudest in the mix is they keys. The next most dominant instrument in the mix are the very smooth, melodic, female vocals.

I cant see nor hear a pop singer, but a clean, very powerful voice of a gorgeous female singer.

What exactly about Anette's style separates her from any one of a number Pop vocalists?

Look, there's a reason female-fronted bands have seemingly had an easier time breaking through... the vocal style is similar to that of Pop music. Vocalists like Anette or Christina, don't sound altogether different than female Pop vocalists. Conversely, you don't hear any Pop vocalists who sound like Barlow, Dane, Dickinson, Halford, Dio, etc. This isn't a knock on Anette or Cristina, it's just reality.

I can't figure out pop song structures but loads of progressive and symphonic elements with odd time changes and a very complex structure.

Perhaps I missed it, but where are the odd time signatures in that song? I agree, there were symphonic elements. However, the symphonic elements so completely dominate the song, that it actually goes against your premise that it's a Metal song. Symphonies aren't intrinsically Metal. Rather, Metal bands infuse this style, which is from an altogether different genre, to add depth or flavor to their music. But in the end, adding symphonic elements diminishes the role of the Metal elements.

Look... do I think of Nightwish as a Metal band? I do. However, if I view Metal as a spectrum, Nightwish is a band that I'd place at the far end of the spectrum, at the end nearest Pop and/or Rock music. And to that end, I take no issue with someone who pushes them out just a bit further.

Zod

EDIT: This thread demonstrates just how bored I am at work today, as I care for neither Meshuggah, Nightwish or genre debates.

 

[Cheiron]

I don't know Zod. That guitar riff is fairly thrashy.

 

[Wyvern]

Look, there's a reason female-fronted bands have seemingly had an easier time breaking through... the vocal style is similar to that of Pop music. Vocalists like Anette or Christina, don't sound altogether different than female Pop vocalists. Conversely, you don't hear any Pop vocalists who sound like Barlow, Dane, Dickinson, Halford, Dio, etc. This isn't a knock on Anette or Cristina, it's just reality.

I believe (we can't discuss this deeper in September ) that you are generalizing a bit, look at: Warlock/Doro, Zed Yago, Znöwhite, Acid, Benedictum, Crystal Viper, Sister Sin, Stos or go extreme Holy Moses, Arch Enemy, Gallhammer. There are far from sound like pop female singers. Even bands like Girlschool, Rock Goddess, Volnaya Staya have vocals that are far from Tarja, Anneke, Sharon, Christina, etc.

 

[Jasonic]

Wow, crazy thread.
I am with Biff here though, in that the most interesting thing is what the NB guy said.

I like some NW, but do agree with the Mushuganna guy, in that it is EXTREMELY formulatic. It is guitar driven pop music meant to appeal to the masses. Not saying there is anything wrong with it. It is respectable heavy pop music in the fact that the music is written by a member of the band.

It's music. If you like it, like it.

No need to get defensive if someone calls a band you like non-metal. He merely used Nightwish as an example of a "metal" band who has more in common songwriting-wise with pop than most metal bands. Can anyone honestly say he is incorrect, even if you are a fan?

 

[Palabra de Dios]

Dammit. Too much has been said already in this post for me to respond to everyone else's posts and try to make my points as thoroughly as possible. But I stand on the side of Meshuggah and Hagström.

#1, I think that Meshuggah is many times the better metal band in every element.

#2, I believe that Hagström Hagström wasn't "talking shit" as it says in the topic title, but simply stating that he didn't believe that Nightwish is a metal band. They aren't really--I mean, they're on a metal label, they're slightly heavy sometimes, and they're from Scandinavia and not Peoria, Illinois or some shit, but they're not a heavy metal band in the sense that Meshuggah just exudes about everything that is heavy metal.

I have at least 7 pages worth of stuff to say, but I don't have the time or patience to type them out. I'd rather be talking to all you guys in person and really be able to debate this.

 

[Magius]

I don't know Zod. That guitar riff is fairly thrashy.

True. However, it's predominance lasts to about the 55 second mark.

 

[adaher]

Ah, so he disagrees with the marketing, Zod?

Now we're getting into objective territory. For the first ten years of Nightwish's career, who were their fans? Metalheads. Nightwish would have been an epic fail if Spinefarm had started out trying to market Nightwish in Tiger Beat or Rolling Stone back in 1994 rather than in metal mags and on metal websites.

Now obviously in the post Evenescence era, the marketing strategy may be more expansive, but it's still not exactly in Hannah Montana/N'Sync territory. Now the marketing targets the Hot Topic crowd as well as the true metal crowd.

Objectively, metal is what metalheads listen to. Nightwish headlined Progpower because Nightwish is metal. Nightwish album reviews show up on predominantly metal websites because Nightwish is metal. Nightwish is considered a good investment by Nuclear Blast Records because they make money for that metal record label. and Nightwish ends up at Wacken because Wacken is a METAL festival.

Now nothing you said about art being a matter of an individual's opinion is wrong, but I think most people would say that he could call Nightwish rap and that wouldn't really make much sense. Calling them pop makes only marginally more sense.