Mic'd Cab Always sounds terrible

I see a few recommendations about putting the cab in the middle of the room, recording with the blanket over it which I have heard before.....

But there's still questions on the debate over To Gain, or Not to Gain....

There was a recommendation about The Slippermans Guide to Recording Distorted Guitars............

I read that, thats pretty much where I brough up Gain discussion #2 above, basically stating that you would have your Amp set to whatever the person feels is their ultimate tone, and then its about volume and Mic Placement.

Volume Meaning that some point between when the speaker is excursing and the cabinet also becomes involved.....

Thats also where I got the recommendation of having someone else do the mic placement for you while you listen in the other room so that #1 you save your ears and let someone else lose their hearing, and #2 you can hear whats being mic'd without the loud cabinet overpowering the headphones when your standing next to it....

He was very blunt in saying that whover the guitar player is will start chugging his GOD LIKE TONE etc.....

And there was no mention of changing the head settings.....

So thats why I asked.........

Whats the deal with Gain?

So many people say turn the Gain down.....

But is that just taking the easy way out of cleaning up that sound by sacrificing the gain?

Obviously the cleaner it gets the cleaner the recording gets.

I have recorded clean guitars that sound immaculate.

Alot of the lower gain sample I hear sound great but are more in the line of The Haunted, At the Gates or Slayer kind of Mid driven sound.

What about the Fear Factory Edge Crusher tone, Machine Head Davidian, Arch Enemy Lament of a Mortal Soul, Killswitch Fixation of the Darkness....

How did Rich Ward Pull off those sick Pinch Harmonics in Drawing Blood from Declaration of a Head Hunter?

Those tunes sound like they have more gain and saturation behind them.

I'd love to see a previous thread discussing Gain levels by Andy or any comments regarding gain based on this dicussion.
 
MetalWorks said:
I see a few recommendations about putting the cab in the middle of the room, recording with the blanket over it which I have heard before.....

But there's still questions on the debate over To Gain, or Not to Gain....

There was a recommendation about The Slippermans Guide to Recording Distorted Guitars............

I read that, thats pretty much where I brough up Gain discussion #2 above, basically stating that you would have your Amp set to whatever the person feels is their ultimate tone, and then its about volume and Mic Placement.

Volume Meaning that some point between when the speaker is excursing and the cabinet also becomes involved.....

Thats also where I got the recommendation of having someone else do the mic placement for you while you listen in the other room so that #1 you save your ears and let someone else lose their hearing, and #2 you can hear whats being mic'd without the loud cabinet overpowering the headphones when your standing next to it....

He was very blunt in saying that whover the guitar player is will start chugging his GOD LIKE TONE etc.....

And there was no mention of changing the head settings.....

So thats why I asked.........

Whats the deal with Gain?

So many people say turn the Gain down.....

But is that just taking the easy way out of cleaning up that sound by sacrificing the gain?

Obviously the cleaner it gets the cleaner the recording gets.

I have recorded clean guitars that sound immaculate.

Alot of the lower gain sample I hear sound great but are more in the line of The Haunted, At the Gates or Slayer kind of Mid driven sound.

What about the Fear Factory Edge Crusher tone, Machine Head Davidian, Arch Enemy Lament of a Mortal Soul, Killswitch Fixation of the Darkness....

How did Rich Ward Pull off those sick Pinch Harmonics in Drawing Blood from Declaration of a Head Hunter?

Those tunes sound like they have more gain and saturation behind them.

I'd love to see a previous thread discussing Gain levels by Andy or any comments regarding gain based on this dicussion.
Click to expand...
Andy has a tendency to turn his gain around halfway up with a tubescreamer in front of it.
 
I think those bands get that sound , with that amount of gain, because the studios where they made that records, are prepared to do that, their studios are builded with specific treatment in acoustics and that stuff, mics, pres, cabs, boths, amps, Technics and all that so they are able to turn the gain up without getting the fizzing, they have all that problems fixed, however i always think that turning the gain to the top in hi gain amps is useless, passing 7 is way enough to get that sound your are talking
 
Metal Overload said:
I think those bands get that sound , with that amount of gain, because the studios where they made that records, are prepared to do that, their studios are builded with specific treatment in acoustics and that stuff, mics, pres, cabs, boths, amps, Technics and all that so they are able to turn the gain up without getting the fizzing, they have all that problems fixed, however i always think that turning the gain to the top in hi gain amps is useless, passing 7 is way enough to get that sound your are talking
Click to expand...


I would totally agree, but it seems like alot of the clips I hear people are playing on 4 or 5 where its closer to the clean side than it is the distorted side. I guess I am left Wanting.

I also was curious about pedals because it seems like the overdrives/tubescreamers help bring out more life from the sound instead of adding harshness, I just got a Maxon OD808 that I am waiting to try out.

So I am gonna go grab some samples.
 
I pulled some old and recent clips off of my Mac.

While your listening, I have been having problems from time to time with little click noises on my tracks that I only get on my guitar tracks. Mic'd and Direct. The tracks arent clipping and they arent punch ins. These are clean tracks.

The more tracks I have recorded before I record the guitars such as drums, the worse the clicking noises seem to appear.

Usually if I bounce the drums down to a stereo track and then record guitars it will go away or not happen as much.

Anyone able to identify the little click noises?

I dont know if its latency, Jitter or some audio card or AD/DA hardware/software issue or what.

Track 1 has some clicks every 10 seconds or so.

Track 2 has none.

Its especially noticeable in the Line 6 Track.

You cant really here it in the mix but some times when the song is just guitar for a moment it shows up. Im probably the only one that notices it but its a problem to me cuz the track should sound clean.

Here are some clips:

Madison Divinity Head, Marshall 1960A CAB GT12's, ESP EX400 EMG81's 1 guitar panned left 1 panned right
More centered in Room with i5 Mic near the edge of the center cone.
Direct into Mackie 32.8 Mixer
First half normal sound, second half cut 10db at 2.3kHz, +4dB 3.8kHz

http://www.forktung.com/media/audio/GuitarSamples.mp3

Peavey Triple XXX, Marshall 1960B with V30's, ESP Kirk Hammet EMG81's 1 guitar in center
Cab near wall with i5 near edge of dustcap.
Direct into Mackie 32.8 Mixer
First half normal sound, second half cut 10db at 2.3kHz +2db around 4kHz

http://www.forktung.com/media/audio/GuitarSamples2.mp3

Line 6 Pod Pro, ESP Eclipse EMG81's 1 guitar panned left, 1 panned right
Direct into Mackie 32.8 Mixer

http://www.forktung.com/media/audio/GuitarSamplesLine6.mp3
 
EdwardPayne said:
Sounds like too much distortion and too much bottom in the sound. I don't know if it's the sound or the guitarplayer that makes it all fuzzy and non-distinct. Hopefully the sound. :)
Click to expand...

I do realize as many have stated that the guitarists playing was sloppy on some of the clips....

Im hoping aside from that perhaps some light can be shed on whether it sounds like too much gain, poor mic placement, if anything sounds close to a typical mic sound and is just a matter of EQing any unwanted frequencies or all of the above.
 
I recognize the digital clipping sound you are talking about. I get the same when my DAW are exhausted and set to a too small buffersize to get low latency. I use Logic Pro, if you're having the same problems.

Try turn the gain down and the bottom. Maybe you should add some mid range aswell. Aim the mic to the edge of the dust cap. The further away from the cap you move the mic the less bottom you will get and more clearity.

For my personal taste I get the best guitar sound from an ADK 51 microphone actually! But when it's too loud the mic is clipping and I have to turn the master down.
 
I'm like you Metalworks, I'm always unsatisfied with the tones I get when miking cabs. I've never really liked center of dustcap miked tones when I do it. I always end up moving the mic towards the edge of the dustcap, even when I do the "Fredman" technique.

To me, the POD tone still wasn't pleasing, but it didn't have the high end response and it had more cutting mids than the miked tones. I would just try to mimic that. One mic, to the side of the dustcap, or between the dustcap edge and the edge of the cone, on axis, lower the highs on the amp, boost the mids and adjust the gain to taste.

Heck, if you have Line 6 Edit, try looking at the POD patch you used and duplicate the parameters with your actual mic/amp setup. Couldn't hurt.
 
~BURNY~ said:
Too much gain, too scooped.
Click to expand...

The problem is they're trying to dial in the lead channel on the Peavey Triple X as if it were a "normal" amp. It has an active EQ, not passive tone controls like the vast majority of other amps.

With normal tone controls, all you can do is cut frequencies. With active controls, you can boost frequencies as well. IIRC, the Triple X EQ has 15 db of boost. Bass and treble at noon on the Triple X = bass and treble at 5:00 with normal tone controls. So bass and treble at 3:00 or so on the Triple X... well...

There's a handful of amps that have crazy EQ sections. The Triple X is one, I don't recall if the JSX has the same EQ; the Mesa Mark series has a really odd EQ as well. These are quirky amps, and you need to know how to work them to get the sound happening in the room before it'll ever happen "on tape", as it were.
 
how are you recording this all? You say you plug them directly into the mackie but how do you get stuff to the computer? It sounds like you aren't driving the amps enough and you definitely need to dial in some better tones before recording. I would say that you aren't doing anything wrong, you just need to take more time and really move the mic around to see what different parts of the speaker do. Also eq and compression can help a lot, but like a lot of guys have said 70-90% of your guitar tone should sound great without the help of any effects.
 
Exocaster said:
The problem is they're trying to dial in the lead channel on the Peavey Triple X as if it were a "normal" amp. It has an active EQ, not passive tone controls like the vast majority of other amps.

With normal tone controls, all you can do is cut frequencies. With active controls, you can boost frequencies as well. IIRC, the Triple X EQ has 15 db of boost. Bass and treble at noon on the Triple X = bass and treble at 5:00 with normal tone controls. So bass and treble at 3:00 or so on the Triple X... well...

There's a handful of amps that have crazy EQ sections. The Triple X is one, I don't recall if the JSX has the same EQ; the Mesa Mark series has a really odd EQ as well. These are quirky amps, and you need to know how to work them to get the sound happening in the room before it'll ever happen "on tape", as it were.
Click to expand...


I believe the JSX only has an active EQ on the Ultra channel.

As for the Mark series, I believe the EQ knobs are pre-preamp EQ's and the sliders are pre-power (post-pre as it were) EQ's (on those Mk's with GEQ's)
 
deathtotaliban said:
how are you recording this all? You say you plug them directly into the mackie but how do you get stuff to the computer? It sounds like you aren't driving the amps enough and you definitely need to dial in some better tones before recording. I would say that you aren't doing anything wrong, you just need to take more time and really move the mic around to see what different parts of the speaker do. Also eq and compression can help a lot, but like a lot of guys have said 70-90% of your guitar tone should sound great without the help of any effects.
Click to expand...

Mic to Mackie XLR input, Mackie 1/4" Direct out to Nuendo/RME 96K Converter 1/4" input, ADAT Optical out to ADAT Optical in on Nuendo/RME 9652 Audio Card in Mac G4.
 
Exocaster said:
The problem is they're trying to dial in the lead channel on the Peavey Triple X as if it were a "normal" amp. It has an active EQ, not passive tone controls like the vast majority of other amps.

With normal tone controls, all you can do is cut frequencies. With active controls, you can boost frequencies as well. IIRC, the Triple X EQ has 15 db of boost. Bass and treble at noon on the Triple X = bass and treble at 5:00 with normal tone controls. So bass and treble at 3:00 or so on the Triple X... well...

There's a handful of amps that have crazy EQ sections. The Triple X is one, I don't recall if the JSX has the same EQ; the Mesa Mark series has a really odd EQ as well. These are quirky amps, and you need to know how to work them to get the sound happening in the room before it'll ever happen "on tape", as it were.
Click to expand...
this is absolutely correct, the triple xxx active eq is extremely sensitive it takes some major dialing in to get it right and you can't just set it like you would a "normal" amp.
first off, using the ultra channel for anything more than solos is a futile endeavor.
here's my personal settings for a triple xxx I used on the first out of the suffering song on my site.
http://www.allcapsrecording.com/media/while_shes_kneeling.mp3
or this one
http://www.garageband.com/song?|pe1|S8LTM0LdsaSiYVO2amg

If that is a tone you think is usable, it might be helpful

master-6
hair-3.5
body-3.5
bottom-3
GAIN-3
volume-10
CRUNCH CHANNEL

tube screamer in front
gain -4
tone-6
level-set so when i kick it in i don't notice any volume change just a tightening of the bottom end

so that amounts to basically a flat eq and gain stage
3-3-3-3 etc.

to get a similar sound on a dual rec i had the gain at 7 so, the point is the gain stage is WAY HOTTER on the peavey

this was a marshall jcm 800 cab with v30's micd with a 57 on axis (straight on) pointed at the seam of the dustcap.
I may have rolled off some highs and lows at mix with a parametric, probably shelfed at 100 and 4k, I dont remember.

until you throw away preconception and just tweak shit until it sounds right in the mix, you'll struggle with this, there aren't any rules
 
nwright said:
I believe the JSX only has an active EQ on the Ultra channel.

As for the Mark series, I believe the EQ knobs are pre-preamp EQ's and the sliders are pre-power (post-pre as it were) EQ's (on those Mk's with GEQ's)
Click to expand...

Thanks for clarifying that on the Peaveys.

I think you're right on the Mark series EQs. Given the way they behave- how easy it is to muddy the hell out of the tone with the knobs if you try dialing them in like a normal amp- it makes sense. Dialed in properly, the Marks are crazy tight, but they're very sensitive to the mid and especially bass settings on the EQ knobs. And they're the only thing I've ever heard still able to sound dark and have plenty of mids with the treble on 10 and mids on 0. o_O The graphic EQ is where all the versatility on those amps lies.

But that's a digression. To the original poster, I'd suggest: if you have re-amping capability, record some riffs. Loop 'em. Send 'em back to your amp and cab of choice. Put up some mics and try adjusting mic positions and amp settings while the track is playing back through the amp. I'd start with relatively "neutral" settings- tone controls on the amp at noon (or 10:00 on the lead channel of the XXX), moderate gain settings, and fairly standard- center or slightly off-axis- mic positioning and work from there.

Judging by the tones on your clips, you seem to prefer scooped, bass-heavy sounds. By their nature, those sort of tones are harder to capture than more focused, midrangey tones. It's a difficult sound to work with, especially when tightness and clarity are the goals. And it does make micing sort of a catch 22- at the center of the cone, you'll get more highs, which you already have plenty of. Farther off the cone, you'll get more bottom end... which you already have plenty of. So you'll probably have to tweak the amp settings to compensate for the placement of the mic.

And if you have the option, try more conservative settings on the amp with an EQ in the loop for the scooping. I prefer midrangey tones myself, but I've heard more than a few guys who scoop that they prefer this method, as it allows them to shape their tone to retain maximum definition and clarity.
 
MetalWorks said:
I read that, thats pretty much where I brough up Gain discussion #2 above, basically stating that you would have your Amp set to whatever the person feels is their ultimate tone, and then its about volume and Mic Placement.
Click to expand...


I've found most that with most guitar players I've worked with,(on the local band scene, anyway) they wouldn't know good tone if it punched them in the face. Turn the gain down. Throw a tubescreamer in front of it.

Cranking the gain way up does not mean "heavy." It just makes things small.
 
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