Mixing time, oldschoolish death metal song.

UnF · Jul 26, 2011

Hello guys! This song ROCKS! I love it, pure old school DM, a reminiscence of the best era, plus it's an absolute blast to mix. I've tried several combinations of settings (only amp sims / cab impulses with many post EQs), but I've kept the same guideline: old school tone !!

)

All tracks share almost the same drums and bass settings. Drums are a bit low and bass a bit high but I've done it on purpose, after listening Atheist, Death, Cannibal Corpse, Suffocation etc. I noticed that you really can hear the bass. As I love your bass line, of course it HAS TO be heard

I'm only concerned with the drums, I don't know if the levels are set properly. I've tried some new reverb settings that mess up with overheads' volumes, so I did my best, especially with rides (impossible to find the sweet spot!)

- V1 uses a simple combination of amps for each guitar track (JSX/6505 from Revalver + 8505); V1b too but with a different blending (more 8505 and less EQ).
- V2 is purposely darker, with lots of layers (Lecto, Revalver etc. + many post EQs), Lecto providing the "oomph" while Revalver presets use 2 cabs... I know it's weird: in real world, it's as if a tone recorded by a microphone in front of a baffle would have been reinjected to another baffle and re-miced. Well, I know it's not academic, I've done lots of trial and error but it's for the lulz, so... V2b is the same, but with less complicated EQs and a brighter tone.
- V3 is an attempt to copy the famous Morrisound tone, which is hard for a hobbyist like me... Maybe it sounds too scooped and too dark. I've studied "Infecting the Crypts" as a starting point but I haven't totally succeeded

I've kept V2 settings and I've added a curve EQ (ReaFir) to lay the mids to rest

V3b is 95% the same (only 2 Lextac tracks added), so it's hard to tell the difference. It's a bit darker and muddier... (EDIT: V3b is now better imo, with proper drums volume. Tracks links are up to date.)

Well that's all, my ears are f*ed up but I really enjoyed the song, I love it! Feel free to criticize, I had a great fun but I was not in very well known territory. I've tried to complement other people's modern versions with a 90's feel, I think your song suits it nicely!

RaNk · Jul 26, 2011

Hey UnF, thanks man, really cool that you like the song. And good you had fun playing around with the tracks. This is the first song of our second 'album'. We have about 6 new songs sort of finished now. Well, this one isn't finished yet, the 2nd guitar line is improvised, and both will be re-recorded with new strings in the end, and leadguitar still has to be added. If interested, I can post another song to mix some time.

You have quite a good idea of the sound we're after, we love the bands you mentioned (I'm a huge fan of Death). But we want to go somewhere inbetween oldschool and modern soundwise. Because some of the songs will be more modern sounding, but still the same vibe cause it just comes out like that.

About the mixes:

You spent quite some time on it, it's interesting to hear the different versions. It's funny, because I have to say that I like the very first version best. It's least scooped, and really fits the mix best. Also, the louder versions are not over-limited, and they don't loose alot of dynamics at all. About 'softer' mixes versus very loud: I like something inbetween (you got that right), usually I end up somewhere around -11dB RMS if I check. The 2nd series of mixes have too much low mids I think. I know also where it comes from, the Ibanez Jem isn't ideal for playing rhythm in this kind of music. I also found out that the guitar gives a hard time giving good ampsim sounds. It's also tuned not that low (D standard), so that makes it not easier. Very low tunings (A/B-ish) are easier to get a good sound of I think.

About the bass guitar, indeed I like it to be heard. In fact, most music I listen to has bass guitar not only to fatten up the guitar. But in your mixes it's a bit too much I think to be honest. The lines itsself grab the attention quickly because they're quite different to what the guitar is doing. I think you could make it even 'higher' sounding. I usually lowpass them at about 70Hz, and boosting 800Hz with quite a narrow band. It will still be heavy enough, and a little more relaxed, but still the details can be picked out. But since it's a low sounding fretless, I compress it quite hard. That way it never jumps out too much.

The drums sound good, but they could use a little humanizing. With a less loud snare, I think they'd also sound a little more 'relaxed'. I think FF666 captured that feel really good. And yes, it's very different to mixing modern lowtuned stuff. For me it's all about hearing everything, but nothing dominating, no need for a super huge punch or anything. Wish I could achieve it myself.

But at least it's fun trying. I learned alot on this forum how all the frequency stuff and compressors etc. work, even though I'm quite interested in different music (still metal though hehe). Of course I try to mix some modern stuff from the stems around here, it's fun and a great learning experience.

Well, I'm gonna give them all a spin on my Mp3 player too. Have you mixed this on headphones? I'm not sure, but the way the bass is mixed in makes me think that. Hope you like my honest critique, I'm not pro at all myself, but everyone has different ears after all.

UnF · Jul 26, 2011

Thanks, I really appreciate your views! I agree 100%, and I'm glad you prefer the 1st version because other attempts were a just a little challenge to sound really old

--> Of course, all mids are gone in the process hehe. The muddy low mids were coming from my lousy experiments, rather than from your guitar, even if new strings should bring a better tone...

I tried to correct the bass as you mentioned. I'm very bad when it comes to use compressors properly, but I get the idea... I understand exactly what you mean, I can listen to the tone I want in my head, but I haven't found it totally (yet)

But I think there's an improvement (see the 2 mixes below). Same idea for the drums: on the previous mixes I'd kept my usual modern settings, with super heavy kick/snare/toms, which indeed didn't work smoothly enough, so I've changed all that stuff. Maybe I should also lower some velocities on the blast parts, I'll try it... It's not perfect, as I've adapted your MIDI file to my shortcircuit setup. It needs some adjustments. I also humanized the drums more. (EDIT: don't know why, but I just noticed that overheads are now louder! Is it a result of humanization? Damn, I don't know how to set this properly...)

So here are 2 new versions based on your feedback:

-v4 (no compression): http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14886940/RaNk/RaNk_v4_UnF_DR11.mp3
-v4 (compressed): http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14886940/RaNk/RaNk_v4_UnF_DR6.mp3
-v4b (no compression): http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14886940/RaNk/RaNk_v4b_UnF_DR12.mp3
-v4b (compressed): http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14886940/RaNk/RaNk_v4b_UnF_DR6.mp3

I've kept things simple: drums and bass are corrected (hope it's better, not perfect I know

), and guitars are post-EQed to a minimum. V4 guitars are Lecto only, and V4b uses a blend similar to V1.

I'm not pro at all too, but when I discovered this forum, I was amazed... There is so much talent here, as well as clever and cool people behind it... I'm still gathering invaluable amounts of knowledge and it's great. I love different genres too and it's always nice to see if something better can be achieved... In fact I'm spending more time having fun mixing than playing guitar hehe! All in all it's inspiring and fun, doesn't matter if it is standard tuned thrash, death metal in D, metalcore in B, etc. Hopefully modern amps and sims are more than capable to shape wonderful tones for every situation. I think we can thank both amp manufacturers and low tuning bands, as they were forced to bring back mids to the mix to cut through

Now it's common practice, scooped tones are cool for nostalgia but that's all...

And yes, I mix with headphones at the moment, as well as lame PC speakers when I need to check something... It's far from perfect I'm afraid, but I think it's no wasted time anyway because getting an acceptable mix through shitty means is gratifying

In every situation, good metal sound is a 'perennial quest'...

RaNk · Jul 27, 2011

UnF, the new mixes sound alot better, especially the 'Lecto only' version. It really has a nice 'even' tone. The whole mix sounds more balanced now. Scooped tone can still be cool, but it has to happen on the amp. I always get bad tone when trying to shape it in the mix, it always ends up hollow or harsh. When I need too much EQ, I know I have to dial in the amp again and re-amp (and micing positions etc.). For thrashy stuff I still think scooped tones can work (more rhythm based music), but normally I like to hear all the notes being played and the midtones provide just that. The drums have more flow in it now, only thing is, like you say, some cymbals are really loud now. But that's an easy fix probably. For humanizing I usually use around 6% for velocity and 8% for timing myself.

Bass is still a bit low maybe, at least lower than I have it mixed in. But I like it, and I'm gonna try to balance that a little more in my own mix. As for compression, how I approach it: First I try to EQ to taste, filtering out some boomy frequencies and highpass so it fits the mix most (I do that on bass track soloed really). Then I put the bass in the mix so that the higher notes are clearly audible, but not overdone. After that, I just increase the compressions until the low notes aren't dominating anymore. Then it's a balancing act to get it sounding to taste using EQ and compression again (now still in the mix of course). I like that you're using a quite clean bass tone. Of course a bit of dirt can really help (and is easier mixing because of the compression that comes with it) but I only do it when the music really asks for it.

Already from this thread I learned alot of things, others views on the mix are always important, because fresh ideas can be really helpful. I liked FF666 and mickrich's vocals more and will implement that in my mix (more natural sound). And now I will also experiment with a bit more lows in the bass.

As for headphones, yep it's cool to make it work. But for me it didn't, but I will try sometimes even if it's just for the challenge alone. My mixes always ended up too boomy on hifi sets while sounding 'great' on headphones. Maybe more experience will help though.

"In every situation, good metal sound is a 'perennial quest'..."
Hehe yes that fits the subject quite will indeed, and that's what it's all about.

*edit*
Did a little update on my own mix. Details of that and the mix are in the starting post. Any help is really welcome.

FF666 · Jul 27, 2011

About the impulses, I downloaded them from the old nebulaprograms web. Let's see if this weekend I can send them to you. And if I have time, I'll reamp the guitars through my peavey rockmaster. Not a triple rectifier but could sound good for old school like cannibal corpse...
I really like this track, good job! What's the name of the band?

UnF · Jul 27, 2011

Hey RaNk! Your latest mix is great, especially drums. They are super balanced. Guitars are crisp and clear, better than your previous mix. Vocals are also better. Bass volume is maybe a tad low, but it's maybe my headphones fooling me! My next investment will be good monitors, it should have been the 1st priority.

Thanks a lot for your explanations. I think I've achieved a better bass tone, more compressed and EQed. But I also found out that guitars were not sufficiently HPed. I had set the high pass at 150, but there was still frequencies at ~120-130 that were boomy when played with the bass. I've corrected it. Tell me what you think

I also tried to use dirtier bass tones, as I usually do in all my mixes, but I'm having better results with a cleaner tone on your song. Otherwise it's too dark and muddy. But I should try some new plugins for bass: it's still not bright enough for my taste...

Of course I've corrected all cymbals, I don't know how it was so messed up. Humanization was made 2 times, I guess it should approach the values you're using. Overall I'm satisfied, but it's not perfect. I want a bass like in "The Philosopher"! I really appreciate your help btw, it's incredible how small adjustments bring a lot clearer tone! You helped me a lot.

Here is my latest mix.

-No compression: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14886940/RaNk/RaNk_v4c_UnF_DR11.mp3
- Compressed: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14886940/RaNk/RaNk_v4c_UnF_DR6.mp3

UnF · Jul 27, 2011

Another mix with several sims blended. Bass is compressed to hell! Definitively love the benefits of smashing it.

limiter: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14886940/RaNk/RaNk_Tests_C.mp3
no limiter: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14886940/RaNk/RaNk_Tests_NC.mp3

RaNk · Jul 27, 2011

FF666 said:
About the impulses, I downloaded them from the old nebulaprograms web. Let's see if this weekend I can send them to you. And if I have time, I'll reamp the guitars through my peavey rockmaster. Not a triple rectifier but could sound good for old school like cannibal corpse...
I really like this track, good job! What's the name of the band?

Hey man, cool if you could send me those impulses, I really like to experiment what I could do with those. I love Nebula, and I think it has to work better than normal impulses hearing the results you get with it. Would be nice also if you could reamp through the Peavey, to see how it sounds. I think it would work very well with these tracks. Also cool to see you like the song. Our project is named 'Agony Awaits'. We have a full CD ready to be released, I think we will make it free to download, but we also have to make a webspace. It's not half as good sounding I think, but still we're quite satisfied with the songs. Most aren't really oldschool, but death metal the way we like to play it (somewhere inbetween).

UnF, thanks for the compliments on the mix. I worked hard to get this sound. That's why I'm really impressed how fast you got into mixing this stuff right. Actually the bass is really nice (mixed in like it's supposed to be, can be clearly heard but doesn't irritate). What you can also experiment with, is putting a small chorus on the bass. It really works well with fretless basses I think. What you can also try, is dip a little around 200Hz (Q around 2 or the likes), it will make bassguitars sound less boomy. That way you can raise the volume a little bit to give the higher mid frequencies more room. The bass will sound more open that way. As for the tone on ITP from Death, that's exactly the kind of bass guitar as I'm totally in love with. But it's hard to reach (big part is his incredible playing of course). Also I'm a huge fan of Obscura. JPT's tone is absolutely killer for me (also fretless). Btw, we both play fretless basses (me and projectmate), don't even like playing with frets anymore hehe.

About your mix again, the last mix sounds really good, very well balanced. The highpassing in the guitars works excellent cause it leaves so much more space for the bass. Again, impressive what you reached so quickly. Maybe one thing is to put just a little more reverb on the vocals, just so that they blend a little bit more with the mix. But that's really what I like myself, maybe others disagree, which is fine. It sounds great like it is anyways. Cool stuff.

*edit*

P.s. UnF, I'm just sharing my ideas and what I try to do, not at all telling how it should be done or something like that. I'm looking for ways to improve my own mix as well.

In the starting post is another update. After listening to your mixes, I liked the idea of the bass having more lows. It started to become boomy however, so I made quite a big cut at 162Hz. I hope it worked out.

UnF · Jul 29, 2011

Hey man, loving your latest mix! Awesome work!

You're totally right about vocals, they sound a bit dry on my mixes. I'll try to correct this when I have time. About bass, yes it's a difficult choice, either we can let the guitars have some low end while the bass is expressive in the mids, or we cut the guitars' low end so the bass is "bassy"... I don't have a preference, depends on how palm-mutes sound, sometimes too much highpassing on the guitars make them too thin, but I really don't think it's the case with your latest settings. Really it's a great job, your latest mix is quite perfect, suits the song and the genre really well!

Thanks for your compliments, but I've made every improvement thanks to your help

Regarding my mix, I think I've got to work on the vocals and guitars. Are your guitars reamped through real amps? In your mix there are plenty of rich frequencies I'm not getting with my amp sims... In fact I'd like to have the highs of the 4c mix blended with the mids of the test mix... I'll try it. Amp sims are great but they need lots of tweaking

RaNk · Jul 29, 2011

Thanks for liking the latest mix, your insight on the bass needing more lows was a real eye opener for me. It was really the hardest part to fit the bass. I went to more extreme EQ than before though, but I think it paved the path to a better bass sound for my mix.

Here's a picture of the main EQ so far:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/19759737/Bass_EQ_110729.jpg

The EQ after the compressor is only a little boost at around 100Hz and one at 800Hz. I see that I used a stereo EQ while it could as well be mono, oh well...

Well I'm glad to being of any help. That's what we're here for, and why I posted the tracks in the first place. To have fun and learn from eachother. In the end you would have gotten a nice mix yourself too I'm sure. And I agree on the highpass on the guitars, it's hard to decide. I'm still experimenting a little with that, but right now more lows don't seem to benefit the mix. Also on the guitar buss is Nebula with the MLC console presets. It gives a nice saturation when I boost the input on it. Maybe you can use something like that too, or some tape saturation plugin. I had good results with that too, but I like the MLC more. Especially on drums it makes an impressive difference I think. But like anything, I'm still experimenting with all that. You could get Nebula free and it comes already with some nice Console Emulations, if you haven't already got it.

I understand it's hard to get a good sound with ampsims. But it's possible, only thing is I don't know how. But you seem to do fine. My guitars are indeed reamped. Only thing is, my DIs aren't very good. I'm currently looking for a replacement for my Line6 GX. Also posted in another thread for that. If you want the reamped tracks I can add them to the starting post as well. It'd be cool to hear another mix from you, but I also understand if you'd get tired with this mix of course hehehe. I'm looking for another song myself to mix. Good to not only focus on my own stuff. But I'm planning on posting another song of the project too.

*edit*

Here's an example of what Nebula does:

Without:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/19759737/#01_Drums+Bass_NoNebula.mp3

With:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/19759737/#01_Drums+Bass_Nebula.mp3

Only drums and bass to make it more obvious, listen to the kickdrum e.g.

UnF · Jul 29, 2011

No I'm not tired at all! But I can't do the new mix right now, as I'm very busy with some boring student work

Damn I hate that, prefer mixing hehe!

I'll try the saturation FX, I totally forget about that. I've read many of good experiences with this indeed. And yes it would be great to hear your reamped guitars alone, thanks a lot! In fact I've really learnt to shape some decent amp sim tones by studying good real amped tracks, i.e. some stems delivered on this forum or on youtube, with ripped guitar tracks from Guitar Hero.

But you know, I should invest on some good monitoring speakers, or better headphones. Now I'm reaching the limits of my actual setup as far as my ears get more accurate. It's hard for example to feel the differences between reverbs on vocals, or subtle things like that.

Well thanks again for all your help, and be assured, I love working on this mix! I forgot to mention I'm absolutely fond of the guitar chords, especially those played by the left guitar from 1mn07 to 1mn20, they're killer and so death metal! I always focus on these so they can be audible. My previous attempts at sounding "Morrisound" were especially bad in that sense

EDIT: thanks, just listened to Nebula-ed drums & bass! It's nice, everything seems more glued together and more roomy, alive, expressive. It's very subtle, but with a good A/B comparison the differences are immediatly audible.

RaNk · Jul 29, 2011

Well I won't hold you back on the mixes then.

Expect the raw reamped tracks in the start post soon.

On the monitors, it makes a big big difference. You'll hear instantly when something is unbalanced. Even in my untreated room. I bought KRK RP6, they weren't too expensive and since I don't have an ideal room (and already being a big improvement), I'm very happy having them.

Another example like I added in the previous post, about the Nebula plugin:

No Nebula:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/19759737/#01_MixNoNebula.mp3

Nebula:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/19759737/#01_MixNebula.mp3

I think this one is more obvious, take notice of the cymbals e.g. (tape softening)

And the Morrisound attempt bad? Should hear my first mixes of this project (was also on ampsims).

*edit*

Reamped guitars now downloadable. (see first post)

UnF · Jul 29, 2011

Oh yeah! The difference is obvious on this one. Thank you so much man, I have to use this everytime now

All instruments benefit from it, not only drums, it really produces this warm tape sound... and it's also a great way to control cymbals.

I'll have a look at KRK monitors, indeed it's not expensive. Time to move on hehe!

UnF · Jul 29, 2011

Hey RaNk, thanks very much for the guitar tracks. I'll try to take some time tonight or tomorrow to study them and to improve my existing mixes. They sound great, and your gear makes me jealous! Fryette, wow

Meanwhile, I've also uploaded my guitar tracks so you can tell me what you think: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14886940/RaNk/RaNk_Guitars_Sims.rar

I've used only Lectos on 4c mix, and I've used all 6 tracks on the "test" mix (but with different volumes for each track). Revalver tracks use Catharsis' fredman impulse (2 SM57s) and Lecto tracks use 2 Marshall 1960A impulses, one SM57 to the edge, and one SM57 centered.

I think I should try a combination of Lecto - only 1 SM57 centered with Revalver - edge impulses, so it would be similar to what you did with real mics... I'll try all this and post a new mix asap

schwinginbatman · Jul 29, 2011

I'd love to try this out, it's just the MIDI file for the drums won't work for me. Superior isn't one of the types in the converter I use for Addictive Drums.

RaNk · Jul 29, 2011

Hey UnF, you should indeed really get some monitors sometimes. It's more fun to mix with because most mixes take less trial and error.

Your tracks sound good, but there has to be some way to make the midtones a little less harsh sounding. Maybe it's in the impulses, I don't know. But I think they are good enough to make them sound well in the mix cause your last mixes sounded nice. But if they have a better base tone in the beginning, it will be easier. The Lecto sounds nicest btw, but I guess it's also experimenting with blending them. I was just trying to make some impulses of my setup, but they didn't come out too well. I'll try once more soon, see if I can get it to work. Don't expect alot of it though, but it's fun to play around with.

Schwinginbatman, I can do a mixdown of the drums, unprocessed. Expect to see them in the starting post in an hour or so. But also, it's a midi file, maybe it's mapped differently, but with a little reorganizing it should work? I didn't use really crazy mapping. Then again, I don't know Addictive Drums at all.

*edit*

Added drums without buss processing in the first post.

Charlez · Jul 29, 2011

gave this a shot

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9799371/death.mp3

RaNk · Jul 29, 2011

Sounds cool Charlez, really something different again (modern/brutal). The snare on the blast is very, very brutal sounding haha. But a well balanced mix overall I think. Unbelievable it's the same bass guitar.

schwinginbatman · Jul 29, 2011

RaNk said:
Hey UnF, you should indeed really get some monitors sometimes. It's more fun to mix with because most mixes take less trial and error.

Your tracks sound good, but there has to be some way to make the midtones a little less harsh sounding. Maybe it's in the impulses, I don't know. But I think they are good enough to make them sound well in the mix cause your last mixes sounded nice. But if they have a better base tone in the beginning, it will be easier. The Lecto sounds nicest btw, but I guess it's also experimenting with blending them. I was just trying to make some impulses of my setup, but they didn't come out too well. I'll try once more soon, see if I can get it to work. Don't expect alot of it though, but it's fun to play around with.

Schwinginbatman, I can do a mixdown of the drums, unprocessed. Expect to see them in the starting post in an hour or so. But also, it's a midi file, maybe it's mapped differently, but with a little reorganizing it should work? I didn't use really crazy mapping. Then again, I don't know Addictive Drums at all.

*edit*

Added drums without buss processing in the first post.

I could have went through and edited all the hits, but a lot was kinda messed up through AD, so it would have taken a while to do, and I was just lazy honestly. Thanks for those bro.

RaNk · Jul 29, 2011

schwinginbatman said:
I could have went through and edited all the hits, but a lot was kinda messed up through AD, so it would have taken a while to do, and I was just lazy honestly. Thanks for those bro.

No problem man, nothing wrong with being lazy.

*update*

Impulses on starting post added, now 24Bit. Also a testrun on Lecto with these impulses.

Mixing time, oldschoolish death metal song.

New Metal Member

Member

New Metal Member

Member

Member

New Metal Member

New Metal Member

Member

New Metal Member

Member

New Metal Member

Member

New Metal Member

New Metal Member

It's shittay!

Member

Carlos Rosa

Member

It's shittay!

Member

Similar threads