Music for the nonbelievers

[jaimek]

Every now and then, Zod and I have made noises about making a topic for the nonbelievers, because the lot of us often filter into the Christian music threads with questions and observations that are kind of inappropriate in a discussion that has nothing to do with us; I always hated it when atheist forums got drive-by bombs from theists, so I try to avoid doing the same to them. We got to talking about it again at PP, so I went ahead and created the topic.

I have never really cared if a band/musician is atheist or not. I don't even much care if a band is Christian, as long as they aren't of the praise and glory or fire and brimstone variety. But it's always interesting to note who openly identifies as some variety of nonbeliever:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_atheists_(music)

^^ This is obviously an incomplete list, as it's missing Neil Peart. I went to a Rush show in Portland OR a few years ago, and I remarked to my companion how amazing it was that Rush could get away with such blatant references to nonbelief - Ghost of a Chance, Roll the Bones, etc. (I'd list Faithless and other tracks too, but they were never publicly put about on radio and MTV) and not suffer negative feedback, protests, or bans. I'm not sure if this just means nobody (to whom this would be offensive) is actually paying attention.

I'm still a little brain-dead from the weekend, so feel free to take it from there.

Note: discussion from the theist crowd is more than welcome, but I think we'd all greatly appreciate it if nobody stooped to OMG YOU HATE GOD AND YOU'RE GOING TO HELL or conversion attempts or other annoying preachy things. If you wouldn't want to hear it from us, don't say it to us. :Smokin:

 

[OrbWeaver]

Note: discussion from the theist crowd is more than welcome, but I think we'd all greatly appreciate it if nobody stooped to OMG YOU HATE GOD AND YOU'RE GOING TO HELL or conversion attempts or other annoying preachy things.

I'm still recovering from the weekend too, but this made me LOL. Accusing you of hating something you don't believe exists? That's just silly!


Okay, so I'm really not opposed to most lyrical content whether pro-Christian, or pro-Athiest. However, I'm not a big fan of lyrical content that glorifies destroying people/things based on their system of belief. I'd no more approve of a Christian band that encourages burning pagans at the stake than I approve of bands that encourage church burnings.

I don't really mind if a band is saying "HAIL ODIN!" or if they're saying "Glory to God!" That one is acceptable, and the other is sneered at by the metal community at large is utterly ridiculous to me. Each band is still glorifying what they believe in. But it seems that simply because one is Christian, that's grounds for ostracism amongst metal heads and musicians? Absurd.

I guess what I'm trying to get at (albeit disjointedly...) is that I don't really care one way or another. I'll listen to it, as long as it's not promoting violence against one side or the other, and I find it aesthetically pleasing on an auditory level. Obviously, there's a bit of a rant about double standards in there, but I'm not sure that that really applies to what Jamie is getting at.

 

[Saladbar]

I don't really mind if a band is saying "HAIL ODIN!" or if they're saying "Glory to God!" That one is acceptable, and the other is sneered at by the metal community at large is utterly ridiculous to me. Each band is still glorifying what they believe in. But it seems that simply because one is Christian, that's grounds for ostracism amongst metal heads and musicians? Absurd.

Very true. I think a lot of the backlash against bands that are a "Glory to god" kind of band is because of the history between Christianity and Metal in the 80s when this music started to get more popular. However I highly doubt that many of those bands that sing praises to Odin really believe in him. It has a lot more to do with the ancestry of some of these bands. I.E. Amon Amarth and such.
Also it just makes for some cool lyrics. Look at Slayer, Tom Araya is a practicing Catholic.

I personally don't care too much about the lyrical content, there are very few bands and songwriters that really made an impact on me with their lyrics (Dio!)

NP: Stryper - To Hell with The Devil.

 

[OrbWeaver]

Very true. I think a lot of the backlash against bands that are a "Glory to god" kind of band is because of the history between Christianity and Metal in the 80s when this music started to get more popular. However I highly doubt that many of those bands that sing praises to Odin really believe in him. It has a lot more to do with the ancestry of some of these bands. I.E. Amon Amarth and such.
Also it just makes for some cool lyrics. Look at Slayer, Tom Araya is a practicing Catholic.

That's a good point. But if you had a band that was saying "Glory to God!" and was being tounge-in-cheek, I think that people either wouldn't get it, or would be pissed off that that the band wasn't serious about that praise. Which feeds a bit more into the aforementioned double-standard: It's okay to praise a figure you don't believe in if that figure is Pagan, but if you do that to a Christian figure when you don't believe, it comes with a whole lot of drama.

Christianity is such a touchy subject. (understatement)

 

[Saladbar]

But if you had a band that was saying "Glory to God!" and was being tounge-in-cheek, I think that people either wouldn't get it, or would be pissed off that that the band wasn't serious about that praise.

Very good point. Here's an example:

Do these lyrics sound preachy? Do they sound like it's from a Christian band?

Have you ever thought about your soul - can it be saved?
Or perhaps you think that when you're dead you just stay in your grave
Is God just a thought within your head or is he a part of you?
Is Christ just a name that you read in a book when you were in school?

When you think about death do you lose your breath or do you keep your cool?
Would you like to see the Pope on the end of a rope - do you think he's a fool?
Well I have seen the truth, yes I've seen the light and I've changed my ways
And I'll be prepared when you're lonely and scared at the end of our days

Could it be you're afraid of what your friends might say
If they knew you believe in God above?
They should realize before they criticize
that God is the only way to love.

Is your mind so small that you have to fall
In with the pack wherever they run
Will you still sneer when death is near
And say they may as well worship the sun.

I think it was true it was people like you that crucified Christ
I think it is sad the opinion you had was the only one voiced
Will you be so sure when your day is near say you don't believe?
You had the chance but you turned it down now you can't retrieve.

Perhaps you'll think before you say that God is dead and gone
Open your eyes, just realize that he's the one
The only one who can save you now from all this sin and hate.
Or will you still jeer at all you hear? Yes - I think it's too late.[/I]
​

It's pretty much someone saying that Christ is the only way to salvation. That line "Open your eyes, just realize that he's the one" screams preachy.

If I showed this to someone that likes metal but doesn't know who wrote this song, they will never believe it was Black Sabbath that wrote it. Not sure what the intent of this tune was other than making a good song, but I found this on Wikipedia:

The lyrics of the song "After Forever" written by Tony Iommi, focus entirely on Christian themes. At the time, some viewed Black Sabbath as Satanists (which the band had always denied) due to their dark sound, image and lyrics. "After Forever" was released as a single along with "Fairies Wear Boots" in 1971." Rolling Stone criticized the Christian lyrics but welcomed the arrangement,while Wilson & Alroy's called the guitar sound "crude but effective".

Haha, so Rolling Stone criticized the Christian lyrics just because?
Like you said, I think a lot of people didn't get it or just don't care.

 

[Dr.Froth]

This is an interesting thread... even more so for me than for some because I have been on both sides of the fence.

When I was younger...and a very devout christian...I really enjoyed bands like Tourniquet. I listened to alot of secular music (slayer, deicide, etc) with a "I really enjoy the music, but don't really agree with the lyrics" kind of attitude.

After my decision to leave the church and abandon all religion (and I was a Baptist Minister at the time...so it was not a light decision) I found myself looking at Pathogenic Occular Dissonance (my favorite Tourniquet album) with the exact same "I really enjoy the music, but don't really agree with the lyrics" attitude. How Strange.

Anyway...for me, a good song is a good song. The words have never meant as much to me as the music. They can sing about Satan, Baby Jesus, or smashing a donkey's testicals into a bloody pulp and drinking it up through a moldy soda straw. I don't care. Singing about Jesus never made a song any better than singing about Satan did. If it sucks...not even divine intervention, from above or below, is gonna save it.

Of course...many people will not agree with me on this...and I understand.

 

[jaimek]

I'm still recovering from the weekend too, but this made me LOL. Accusing you of hating something you don't believe exists? That's just silly!

You wouldn't believe how often I hear it in relevant discussions. It's the same thing as threatening me with hell; pretty ineffective scare tactic!

I don't really mind if a band is saying "HAIL ODIN!" or if they're saying "Glory to God!" That one is acceptable, and the other is sneered at by the metal community at large is utterly ridiculous to me. Each band is still glorifying what they believe in. But it seems that simply because one is Christian, that's grounds for ostracism amongst metal heads and musicians? Absurd.

As someone else pointed out, the bands who sing Hail to Odin don't actually believe in Odin. Now, I have nothing *against* praise songs of any kind - it's not ostracism, it's just personal disinterest. It's just not something I want to listen to. What I'm okay with is allegory - cf. Shadow Gallery. They don't preach, they tell stories. Now admittedly they kinda cross the line from time to time, but it's so infrequent, and I enjoy the rest of it so much, that it's not something that drives me off.

I don't listen to any Hail Satan stuff either, that I know of!

 

[J-Man]

Really surprised to see David Gilmour on the list, but I still like his music.

 

[Yippee38]

I'd like to ask, for those of you who saw Six Minute Century, what did you think of their intro to, and last song? It was obviously a Christian themed song. During the intro I, as a Christian, kind of cringed. I thought, "that's going to earn them some backlash." It didn't seem to matter though. I like that song, but didn't realize before that it was a pro-Christian song. Did that bother anybody?

 

[OrbWeaver]

As someone else pointed out, the bands who sing Hail to Odin don't actually believe in Odin. Now, I have nothing *against* praise songs of any kind - it's not ostracism, it's just personal disinterest. It's just not something I want to listen to. What I'm okay with is allegory - cf. Shadow Gallery. They don't preach, they tell stories. Now admittedly they kinda cross the line from time to time, but it's so infrequent, and I enjoy the rest of it so much, that it's not something that drives me off.

Why is it okay if they DON'T believe? That seems irrational, to me. "Oh, they don't really believe in Odin, this song is great!" If you had a non-religious band hailing a monotheistic God, people would be upset. Or they'd accuse the band of being Christian. Or both. Why is it okay for a band to hail Odin, regardless of whether or not they believe in him and the other Norse deities, but not a monotheistic god?

I'd like to ask, for those of you who saw Six Minute Century, what did you think of their intro to, and last song? It was obviously a Christian themed song. During the intro I, as a Christian, kind of cringed. I thought, "that's going to earn them some backlash." It didn't seem to matter though. I like that song, but didn't realize before that it was a pro-Christian song. Did that bother anybody?

I watched a fair number of people clear out when it was made clear that the song was Christian themed. I noticed for that song there were less people watching, which is a shame. It was a really good song.

 

[Hal9000]

I find myself identifying more with music that has agnostic or atheistic lyrics, but I don't discount christian bands based on their beliefs. I love bands like Tourniquet and Theocracy whose beliefs are out front yet poetically expressed, but I hate christian bands with cheesy "Yay Jesus, he's the coolest and he's better than your god" lyrics. On the other side of that coin, I despise bands like Manowar and Dream Evil that use the same insipid lyrics to express their fake belief in the religion of metal. It all comes down to expression. I don't have to share your beliefs to appreciate how you emote them.

 

[BenMech]

it's no secret that I'm closer on the scale to Orphaned Land than to your Strypers, and even then, I'm much closer on the scale to Atheist than even a band I really enjoy such as The Devil's Blood or Emperor or Nile.

The thing I disapprove with STRONGLY of religious bands is the presumption by them that EVERYBODY comes from their background, or are near enough to "convert" them, if only indirectly.

Let's say if you're in a faith that isn't the most populous, but someone says (innocuously) "Because YOU'RE with US, you're cool". Frankly, even with the thickest skin, it's hurtful. Metal also says it works for the outsider, but when does it really? Not often enough.

 

[nomisofsiman]

Personally, I'm agnostic. I'm not really against anything except people from a religious background shoving it down my throat.

In terms of music though I have listened to Christian bands and I've listened to black metal bands. It really doesn't bother me any way. For me, I look at it with an open-mind and I always find different people or band's point of views on things. That's how I look at it anyways, so for the most part it doesn't bother me. It really takes a lot for me to be bothered by the music in terms of a religious context. The lyrics essentially have to be shoving it down your throat, why you have to be Christian, etc. or in black metal terms really genuinely thinking that all Christian believers (or any religion for that matter) must be slaughtered. The only time I can deal with the latter topic is if it indeed is based off a historically accurate war, myth, etc.

The bottom line for me is that most lyrics to me just are another way of telling a story and in that way it doesn't bother me. The only musicians that have bothered me in terms of their ideology is Gaahl's and to a lesser extent Neal Morse. Neal Morse I can take when it's Spock's Beard or Transatlantic for instance, but when it comes to his solo stuff I will stay far away from it.

 

[Jasonic]

I don't mean to trivialize this, but seriously, it's music. It's entertainment.

Just like watching a porno doesn't make you a sex addict, or watching a horror flick doesn't make you an axe murderer!

Like anything, some bands and artists take it too far. Those who do usually come off as hypocritical in the end. Take Glen Benton from DEICIDE who has a freakin inverted cross branded into his forehead? Is he a practicing Satanist? Hell no. He's a devout family man!

I suppose being raised Jewish, I never had the "fear of god" in me, and bands like Venom and Mercyful Fate were attractive to the 13 year old me, just the same way movies like Halloween, Gates of Hell, and the Exorcist were.

Sorry - I know I might be getting a little off topic here, as part of this is also about individuals who are "non believers", but I think overall for music, it's just entertainment.

 

[Hal9000]

I don't mean to trivialize this, but seriously, it's music. It's entertainment.

Just like watching a porno doesn't make you a sex addict, or watching a horror flick doesn't make you an axe murderer!

Like anything, some bands and artists take it too far. Those who do usually come off as hypocritical in the end. Take Glen Benton from DEICIDE who has a freakin inverted cross branded into his forehead? Is he a practicing Satanist? Hell no. He's a devout family man!

I suppose being raised Jewish, I never had the "fear of god" in me, and bands like Venom and Mercyful Fate were attractive to the 13 year old me, just the same way movies like Halloween, Gates of Hell, and the Exorcist were.

Sorry - I know I might be getting a little off topic here, as part of this is also about individuals who are "non believers", but I think overall for music, it's just entertainment.

Agreed, but for my personal taste I would rather watch an avant garde movie (Therion) than a Micheal Bay movie (Manowar).

 

[Corsair]

I'm not sure that comparing Therion to an avate garde movie is entirely valid, when bands like Sleepytime Gorilla Museum exist.
Not knocking Therion, they're one of my favorite bands; just sayin'.
And Sometimes the 'Michael Bay' music can be pretty fun, even if it's lacking somewhat in artistic merit, just got to remember not to take it too seriously.

Honestly, I don't really care too much about the theology (or lack thereof) of a band or it's music, even if it gets obnoxious and preachy. I know Kings X have some pretty apparent christian themes, esp. in some of the earlier albums, but I love the band in spite of it. I'll sing praises that I don't believe in, if the songwriting is good enough. Though It took me a long time to get to that point - Even when I was a christian I didn't much care for christian themes in music, something about it jsut seemed sort of disingenuous, but I don't really feel that way, now that I'm not. I'm now able to enjoy Antestor for it's sonic merits.



And some artists -do- buy into the Norse mythology that they write about. Falkenbach, for one example.

 

[Dr.Froth]

I'd like to ask, for those of you who saw Six Minute Century, what did you think of their intro to, and last song? It was obviously a Christian themed song. During the intro I, as a Christian, kind of cringed. I thought, "that's going to earn them some backlash." It didn't seem to matter though. I like that song, but didn't realize before that it was a pro-Christian song. Did that bother anybody?

It is interesting that you noticed that...most people never really comment on it anymore. (Of course, if you have met me than you know I am probably wearing a T-shirt about balls and somebodies mother...thanks to all of you that liked those by the way) Chuck always writes lyrics that reflect his personality. In many cases they tend to be historical references (he has a passion for history) but he has deep personal relgious views himself. I feel that his chosing to write a song about something he belives in does not make the band a christian band any more than we would become a vegaterian band for writing a single song about the wonders of salad.

Being in a band with Chuck had me nervous at first because we are extreme polor oppisites. But even when I showed up to my first gig with them wearing a t-shirt that said "I Rape The Dead In The Name Of Satan" he did not have a problem with me at all and over time Chuck and I have become very close friends.

I remember them discussing that many people confuse SMC with a christian band when we are in fact just a band. Of course, I told em' that people probably wont be having a problem figuring that out now that I am in the band...(my mother made me promise not to write any lyrics...hahaha).

As long as Chuck stays true to himself, and I do as well...than the balance is preserved and well...at the end of the day we probably cancel each other out and what we have left is....just a band.

And that is what we all started out to have anyway...right....lol.

 

[BenMech]

(snip) a single song about the wonders of salad.

(snip)

There aren't enough Metal songs about this

 

[sh0kr0k]

I had been ignoring this thread because I figured it would be much more "hostile" towards believers and/or "Christian" bands. I think Joan/OrbWeaver summed up my exact feelings in her first post here. Her and I had a nice conversation with a few other folks about this subject while waiting for the sponsor tour. It's a bit disheartening that the metal community can dismiss and even make fun of bands like Stryper for their image and belief (thanks a lot, Tarot ...) yet practically fall on their knees in worship for bands like Mayhem. Has anyone seen both of those bands lately? Mayhem are good, not great, and stuck on their gimmick. Stryper may not draw as well but are strong, mature, stylish, and a wall of polished sound.

Perhaps it comes down to viking and satanic stuff being easier for people to brush off as "gimmick" and not true beliefs, with the exception of some of the more out-spoken Satanic bands. It's been speculated that some bands have used the Christian scene to launch their career without actually being true believers, but I tend to see it as a label that a band can't shake. It wouldn't be a bad label if the listening community didn't make it a point of mockery.

At the end of the day, I don't care who is singing about what so long as (like OrbWeaver said) it's not destructive/degrading to others, but what really bugs me is the term "Christian band." Eventhough it's easy to use it in conversation, it does nothing to describe the band beyond lyrical content, completely excluding their chosen sound style. Name a genre that lumps bands of any style together based solely on shared thematic lyrics? You could argue that "Pagan" lumps in black metal, viking metal, folk metal, etc.. based on lyrics about Norse mythology. Perhaps. Even the word "Pagan" still seems to evoke a more narrow sound concept along with lyrical content. In fact I think that it has generally been used to describe sound over lyrics anyway.

"Christian band" could refer to Mortification, Point of Grace, or Flyleaf so it makes me cringe when I hear it used as a genre instead of a lyrical description. I'm not trying to get on anyone's case, especially here for the sake of the conversation, but you know what I mean...

 

[Purveyor Of Evil]

I'm a devout and practicing Roman Catholic. I listen to any kind of metal and your beliefs are your beliefs. I will never believe in anything anti-God. Ever. But, if that's your choice, then on judgement day, you can explain yourself to God. I'm not in the position to judge anyone or their beliefs. It's not my place to do so. I do believe that people who lavish praise on the so-called "Satanic" bands do so because Satan is rebellious, anti-establishment, and he looks cooler on album covers. Satan is the shock factor in music that many of us are attracted to even if for the cartoonish factor. Come on, The Number of the Beast is one of the greatest covers ever. Jasonic nailed it perfectly. Just because you listen to certain music or watch certain movies doesn't mean you are those personas.