Music for the nonbelievers

[jaimek]

It wasn't my intent for this to be a talk-smack-about-Christian-bands thread, and I'd really like to steer it back in the original direction, so I'm gonna hop back on the Rush wagon for a bit.

I've got my own moral compass to steer by
A guiding star beats a spirit in the sky

Neil's always done a good job at succinctly expressing some the key points of nonbelief, and the subject of morality is a big one. A lot of people openly claim that it's not possible to be moral without a Big Daddy telling you what's right and what's wrong. The golden rule, as such, is just common sense. Doing the right thing because it's the right thing to do, not because you get spiritual brownie points, not doing the wrong thing because it's a dick thing to do and you shouldn't do dick things (wait, that didn't come out right!), not out of fear of punishment down the road. There should never be a dictatorial "because X says so" in the equation. If you need to be *told* not to do bad things, you probably don't belong in the gene pool.

Or fate is just the weight of circumstances. You make do with the hand you were dealt; luck and elbow grease are equally responsible for your successes and failures in life, not destiny or prayers.

 

[Purveyor Of Evil]

Or fate is just the weight of circumstances. You make do with the hand you were dealt; luck and elbow grease are equally responsible for your successes and failures in life, not destiny or prayers.[/QUOTE]How do you this? How do you know prayer has never helped anyone?

 

[Dr.Froth]

The burden of proof is always on the one making the miraculous claim...not the other way around.

If I told you that there was a small toaster in orbit around Jupiter that was too small to be seen by telescope...would the fact that you could not disprove it make it a valid argument. No...sadly the burden of proving the toaster would be on me...

This is no differant...except that more people get upset when you replace "toaster" with "results of prayer" even though the logic is the same.

Please do not take this as an attack or insulting... I am just pointing out a flaw in the logic before the thread gets bogged down debating a point that can not be won or lost by either side.

The greatest theolgic minds in human history have not been able to win this argument on either side so I'm sure that a bunch of us metal and prog-heads will fail as well. Lets not turn this into a US vs. THEM dick-measuring contest...because so far we have all conducted ourselves with maturity and we are all benefiting from the discourse.

AND NOW: BACK TO OUR FEATURED EVENT...lol

 

[jaimek]

How do you this? How do you know prayer has never helped anyone?

In a placebo sense, I'm sure it helps, and if that gets someone through the day or a really rough patch in life, I'm not going to knock it. But I have no reason to believe that there is a larger force up there randomly and capriciously answering wishes.

How do you know you're praying to the right god? If it turns out the Muslims are right, you'll be burning in hell right alongside me!

 

[nomisofsiman]

I don't mean to trivialize this, but seriously, it's music. It's entertainment.

Just like watching a porno doesn't make you a sex addict, or watching a horror flick doesn't make you an axe murderer!

Like anything, some bands and artists take it too far. Those who do usually come off as hypocritical in the end. Take Glen Benton from DEICIDE who has a freakin inverted cross branded into his forehead? Is he a practicing Satanist? Hell no. He's a devout family man!

I suppose being raised Jewish, I never had the "fear of god" in me, and bands like Venom and Mercyful Fate were attractive to the 13 year old me, just the same way movies like Halloween, Gates of Hell, and the Exorcist were.

Sorry - I know I might be getting a little off topic here, as part of this is also about individuals who are "non believers", but I think overall for music, it's just entertainment.

Well said. I would elaborate on this, but I most likely would threadjack this entire thing. Haha.

 

[General Zod]

Every now and then, Zod and I have made noises about making a topic for the nonbelievers, because the lot of us often filter into the Christian music threads with questions and observations that are kind of inappropriate in a discussion that has nothing to do with us; I always hated it when atheist forums got drive-by bombs from theists, so I try to avoid doing the same to them. We got to talking about it again at PP, so I went ahead and created the topic.

Cool topic. I'll attempt to offer some thoughts without actually delving into any actual religious commentary.

I'll admit I avoid Christian bands. Lyrics are very important to me. Perhaps it's because I use to write lyrics when I was in a band, and took that responsibility very seriously. Consequently, if the band's message is something I take issue with, I just can't get passed it.

As for lyrics about Odin... I think of Odin the same way I think of Zeus or Hercules; as mythical figures not to be considered seriously in a religious context. To that end, writing about Odin strikes me as no different than writing about dragons and wizards.

As for Satanic lyrics, I have no issue with them, By and large, they are typically screamed in a fashion that makes them indecipherable. And many of the Black Metal bands I listen to, aren't even singing in English. In a weird way, I actually appreciate not understanding the lyrics. It allows the vocals to take on a completely instrumental quality, devoid of message, that is impossible to accomplish when the style calls for clean vocals.

As for atheist lyrics, I'll admit I smile when someone says something I agree with. However, I doubt I'd listen solely for the lyrics, regardless of the message.

I'd like to ask, for those of you who saw Six Minute Century, what did you think of their intro to, and last song?

Six Minute Century arose from the ashes of Mystic Cross. Since that would seem to be the name of a Christian band, I asked Don about whether SMC was a Christian band in our interview. His response...

I was not an original member of MYSTIC CROSS. I believe that at some point, they did maybe try to have some kind of a religious, more of a Christian type band. But I wasn't in the band at the time. During my time in MYSTIC CROSS and in SIX MINUTE CENTURY, even though Chuck may write some songs with Christian themes in them, we've never stated that we're a Christian band.

I actually saw on YouTube where someone posted a song of ours called "Heaven's Gate". Chuck wrote the lyrics for that song about a cult in San Diego called "Heaven's Gate" that all committed to suicide. That's what the song is about; it has nothing to do with heaven really. We've never promoted ourselves as a Christian band.

I don't mean to trivialize this, but seriously, it's music. It's entertainment.

True. However, part of that entertainment value, at least for some people, lies in the lyrics.

 

[Dr.Froth]

True. However, part of that entertainment value, at least for some people, lies in the lyrics.

That's why I like to write songs about relationships...like the one with my ex-wife that I called:

Prepare to read braille, cuz I'm going to stab your eyes out bitch

Now that's a message I can believe in...hahaha

 

[General Zod]

That's why I like to write songs about relationships...like the one with my ex-wife that I called:

Prepare to read braille, cuz I'm going to stab your eyes out bitch

I'm guessing the marriage ended on band terms?

 

[nailz]

Why is it okay if they DON'T believe?

Because it becomes more a part of a song/story, and doesn't come off as worship.

 

[Dr.Froth]

I'm guessing the marriage ended on band terms?

What on earth gives you that idea?

 

[OrbWeaver]

Because it becomes more a part of a song/story, and doesn't come off as worship.

Right, but that question, in context, is about the double-standard. If someone wrote Christian lyrics worshiping a monotheistic God, but did not believe in that God, they'd get all sorts of flak for it. I think Saladbar's Black Sabbath example was a good one. It's not okay for Christianity to be used as part of a song/story, but it's okay for Paganism? That seems like typical double-standard bull, to me.

 

[hoodaman]

It's not okay for Christianity to be used as part of a song/story, but it's okay for Paganism? That seems like typical double-standard bull, to me.

I don't know that I'd have the patience to put too much stock into worrying about what someone else thinks about the music I listen to. If it's a good tune, it's a good tune. Plus I have serious bouts of lyricosis in that I mostly hear shit that isn't there/make it up as I go but that may be because I listen to the music more than I listen to the lyrics.

 

[Yippee38]

It wasn't my intent for this to be a talk-smack-about-Christian-bands thread, and I'd really like to steer it back in the original direction, so I'm gonna hop back on the Rush wagon for a bit.

I've got my own moral compass to steer by
A guiding star beats a spirit in the sky

Neil's always done a good job at succinctly expressing some the key points of nonbelief, and the subject of morality is a big one. A lot of people openly claim that it's not possible to be moral without a Big Daddy telling you what's right and what's wrong. The golden rule, as such, is just common sense. Doing the right thing because it's the right thing to do, not because you get spiritual brownie points, not doing the wrong thing because it's a dick thing to do and you shouldn't do dick things (wait, that didn't come out right!), not out of fear of punishment down the road. There should never be a dictatorial "because X says so" in the equation. If you need to be *told* not to do bad things, you probably don't belong in the gene pool.

Or fate is just the weight of circumstances. You make do with the hand you were dealt; luck and elbow grease are equally responsible for your successes and failures in life, not destiny or prayers.

I guess I misunderstood the purpose of this thread. So let me tell you what I thought it was about, and you can correct me. You first post lead me to believe that this thread is about lyrics in music that are either theistic or atheistic, and whether or not that made a difference to us, and if so, why. However, after reading your second post (quoted above) it seems that your real purpose here was to actually discuss the merits of theism via atheism, and not necessarily in any way related to music (other than possibly using music to illustrate a point). Or did I miss the mark?

 

[jaimek]

I guess I misunderstood the purpose of this thread. So let me tell you what I thought it was about, and you can correct me. You first post lead me to believe that this thread is about lyrics in music that are either theistic or atheistic, and whether or not that made a difference to us, and if so, why. However, after reading your second post (quoted above) it seems that your real purpose here was to actually discuss the merits of theism via atheism, and not necessarily in any way related to music (other than possibly using music to illustrate a point). Or did I miss the mark?

I saw that in past threads involving Christian bands, some of the posters would get a little annoyed with the nonbeliever crowd dropping in and asking questions and making observations. Even said "hey, we should probably do this sort of thing in our own thread," which is what I did. It's open discussion about the subject in general, preferably as it relates to music, also as an opportunity to help people discover more bands in this vein.

It's worth noting that atheism only *exists* in relation to theism, and the relevant music often expresses a lot of frustration with the status quo, especially as nonbelievers are often on the receiving end of a great deal of antagonism.

Discussion is great with the understanding that this is *our* little sandbox; I just don't want to see it devolve into anything hostile. Which is why I poked Zod to come join us; he's very good at making very logical and reasoned arguments without being a dick.

(does that make sense? little early yet, brain is still ooga.)

 

[Saladbar]

Alright, someone suggest me some good Christian bands cause other than Stryper I am not very knowledgeable in this "genre". Circus Maximus doesn't count.
For the record I am not a Christian, Satanist or any other religion but if the music is good I'll listen to it.

 

[eppst1]

*snip* Is he a practicing Satanist? Hell no. He's a devout family man!

I didn't realize those are mutually exclusive.

 

[General Zod]

I didn't realize those are mutually exclusive.

That's awesome.

 

[J-Man]

Alright, someone suggest me some good Christian bands cause other than Stryper I am not very knowledgeable in this "genre". Circus Maximus doesn't count.
For the record I am not a Christian, Satanist or any other religion but if the music is good I'll listen to it.

NARNIA
7 Days
DARKWATER
SAVIOUR MACHINE
ROYAL HUNT to some extend, some lyrics are Christian Themed

 

[Saladbar]

NARNIA
7 Days
DARKWATER
SAVIOUR MACHINE
ROYAL HUNT to some extend, some lyrics are Christian Themed

Darkwater is Christian? Shows how much I pay attention to lyrics, ha! "Calling the Earth to Witness" is one of my favorite records of the last 5 years.

 

[dcowboys311]

It's a bit disheartening that the metal community can dismiss and even make fun of bands like Stryper for their image and belief (thanks a lot, Tarot ...) yet practically fall on their knees in worship for bands like Mayhem. Has anyone seen both of those bands lately? Mayhem are good, not great, and stuck on their gimmick. Stryper may not draw as well but are strong, mature, stylish, and a wall of polished sound.

Out of curiosity, what gimmick is Mayhem stuck on?

It's been speculated that some bands have used the Christian scene to launch their career without actually being true believers, but I tend to see it as a label that a band can't shake. It wouldn't be a bad label if the listening community didn't make it a point of mockery.

This is absolutely true. It doesn't really apply to the power metal world, but in the early 2000's a metalcore band couldn't draw more than 50 people if they weren't signed to Tooth and Nail or Solid State. The "Christian" scene was huge and many bands hopped on to make a quick buck. In the interest of keeping this discussion civil I'm not going to name names, but I've heard many, many stories from very reliable people regarding some of the big names in Christian metalcore that would give a preacher a heart attack.