Music for the nonbelievers

[cslebn]

Kind of taking this back towards a more musical note:

What are your guys thoughts on Evergrey's Inner Circle album? There are without a doubt religious overtones to the album, though not necessarily in a positive light.

The thought of that album kind of raises a question to me about music. Why is it okay (as a musician) to rail against God (see bands with lyrics along the lines of I hate you God) when praising God is seen as pushy so often (causing bands to desire to disassociate themselves with this image)?

Last question: what are the thoughts of this group on the Pain of Salvation Album Be where the band used a phone line for people to call God?

 

[General Zod]

Sure, sure. Not meant to be insulting at all. No one should be insulted by anothers' beliefs if they are not forcing them upon them.

And just to further clarify, I didn't think you were trying to be insulting with your question. I just wanted to clarify why I sort of danced around the issue.

I personally think that's funny, because when those atheist become outspoken against religion, they are then trying to force their beliefs (or lack thereof) on others. Isn't that what they were complaining about in the first place?

It's a fair observation. However, (not shockingly ) I think there are important distinctions.

Since I have a feeling I'm not going to contribute more than I've already said in this thread, I'll offer this side note. Zod, this is exactly 50% of the reason I listen to music in other languages. I thought I was the only one to see it that way when most of the responses I get are, "why would you listen to something in Japanese?" or "I'd like them better if they sang in English"

Lyrics in another language allow for any vocal style and, if you're diligent enough, you can still learn to sing along without having to know the message. I can't tell you how many Japanese rock songs I can sing note for note but have no idea what they are about. I'm fine with that. I guess this can relate to the topic because I look at lyrics as nothing more than a poetic vehicle for delivering the vocal instrument. Epic spiritual journey or a banana - I don't really care.

Exactly. The other, smaller component, is most lyrics are bad, or at best, nondescript. So, in some weird way, I can envision that the lyrics (I can't understand) are completely brilliant.

Why is it okay (as a musician) to rail against God (see bands with lyrics along the lines of I hate you God) when praising God is seen as pushy so often (causing bands to desire to disassociate themselves with this image)?

I think this thread has demonstrated that neither lyrical direction is without its critics. Also keep in mind, the "I hate god" lyrics have largely come from the Black Metal scene. The Black Metal scene was born in Norway. Norway, as a nation, is fairly irreligious.

 

[Purveyor Of Evil]

In a placebo sense, I'm sure it helps, and if that gets someone through the day or a really rough patch in life, I'm not going to knock it. But I have no reason to believe that there is a larger force up there randomly and capriciously answering wishes.

How do you know you're praying to the right god? If it turns out the Muslims are right, you'll be burning in hell right alongside me!

My religion is based on faith. To believe in what you cannot see. I have faith that what I'm being taught to believe is the truth.

 

[DustyV]

I don't know if Scar Symmetry fits into this thread. They have an album called, "The Holographic Universe"
which is based upon Michael Tolbot's book "The Holographic Universe", which revolves around a theory
that the physical reality is just a giant hologram....Very interesting theory. The book doesn't really mention
God at all, so I suppose they could be in the non-believer camp.....On a side not, it's an amazing book by the way

 

[nailz]

I personally think that's funny, because when those atheist become outspoken against religion, they are then trying to force their beliefs (or lack thereof) on others. Isn't that what they were complaining about in the first place?

Ironically, I have never had an atheist knock on my door preaching the good word of no one at 7am on a Sunday.

 

[nailz]

My religion is based on faith. To believe in what you cannot see. I have faith that what I'm being taught to believe is the truth.

With risk of derailing the entire topic, I shall pose a question: From where does this faith come?

 

[sh0kr0k]

Well this might be interesting, considering some of the discussions here: http://twitter.com/Gagnrath

Totally following that.

 

[jaimek]

My religion is based on faith. To believe in what you cannot see. I have faith that what I'm being taught to believe is the truth.

Sure, but your comment about "how do you know prayer doesn't help" brushes very closely against Pascal's Wager, which has nothing to do with faith. If you're praying on the odds that there's something out there listening to you (ie, "can't hurt, right?"), you're also praying on the odds that the something out there listening isn't what you expect. Not all gods are benevolent!

You have faith that yours is the only god out there. I see thousands and have no reason to believe in yours over any other. (Read Zod's sig now, if you haven't before.)

I personally think that's funny, because when those atheist become outspoken against religion, they are then trying to force their beliefs (or lack thereof) on others. Isn't that what they were complaining about in the first place?

Depends on the context. If it's some malcontent being pointlessly hostile, they're no better than the fundamentalists (and they annoy me as much as I'm sure assholes like Limbaugh and Robertson annoy you guys, because they speak for a minority), but I've seen that accusation leveled against people who were doing nothing more than standing their ground against theist encroachment on their own personal rights. I am a full-flag supporter of people being able to believe whatever the hell they want to believe, as long as they don't insist that the world around them conform to their particular beliefs. Do you see the difference?

With regard to the mythical figure - yes, I see no difference. But the key here is that a billion people *don't* believe that the Christian god is a mythical figure, and this has a very real impact on the world around me.

Bands - if people IN a band identify as Christian, it's a non-issue. Why would I care? If a *band* identifies as Christian, as in this is specifically the image they put forth, then odds are very low that I will be interested. It's nothing personal; it just ain't my bag.


I neglected to mention Orphaned Land alongside SG as a religious band that I really enjoy, and part of that is the huge, huge, HUGE effort that band makes towards peace - to be a unifying force for Christian and particularly Jewish and Muslim fans, not to divide or separate. I cannot tell you guys how much respect I have for them for that and will gladly empty my pockets for their music.

 

[Purveyor Of Evil]

a) Let's say for the sake of argument that there is an external force. Why would the one you "speak" to be the one, if not many or none, to fulfill the request? What if the request was specifically denied, or generally denied? That's a bit of a nasty crapshoot, ehh? It's one thing to play the whole table and see which pings back.

b) Let's say there's no external force. What do you gain by the time spent communicating with the absence of anything? We have a term for that called "Mental illness", and can be treated, in a longterm.

I take your point b to be a wise ass crack at me. I'd argue the point if I thought you knew what you were talking about. I haven't insulted anyone here, so don't start your shit with me.

 

[Purveyor Of Evil]

Sure, but your comment about "how do you know prayer doesn't help" brushes very closely against Pascal's Wager, which has nothing to do with faith. If you're praying on the odds that there's something out there listening to you (ie, "can't hurt, right?"), you're also praying on the odds that the something out there listening isn't what you expect. Not all gods are benevolent!

You have faith that yours is the only god out there. I see thousands and have no reason to believe in yours over any other. (Read Zod's sig now, if you haven't before.)It's in the Bible. "I am the God. Your God. You shall have no other gods besides me." End of story. Good enough for me. How do you know I'm not correct? What makes you all-knowing about what you believe? Not being a smartass. Just curious.

 

[General Zod]

My religion is based on faith.

All religions are based on faith.

I have faith that what I'm being taught to believe is the truth.

If I live to be old as Methuselah (pun intended) I'll never comprehend that statement. And that's OK. Your faith has nothing to do with my comprehension. That said, such an argument seems to make salvation a birth rite. Had you been born to a devout Muslim family in Afghanistan, the "truth" you would have been "taught" would be Islam. And different "truths" would have established your faith had you been born in India, Israel or China. And since we know that a very small percentage of people convert between major religions, doesn't having faith that what your parents (or even your community) taught you was the "truth", ultimately make salvation and damnation, to a large extent, a birth lottery?

Again, please don't take anything I'm stating or asking as an insult. As it's certainly not intended that way. I'm simply trying to have an open, cordial discussion.

 

[jaimek]

It's in the Bible. "I am the God. Your God. You shall have no other gods besides me." End of story. Good enough for me. How do you know I'm not correct? What makes you all-knowing about what you believe? Not being a smartass. Just curious.

How do you know what the Bible says is true? I know it all circles back to faith for you, but for myself, I require answers that are clear and definite, from measurable sources. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Even if I believed in a higher power, I would never take it on the collective word of tribal stories cobbled together over the span of decades and centuries, then passed down and interpreted millions of times across a dozen languages for another two thousand years. But that's how *I* think.

I don't claim to be all-knowing in the least, but a lifetime of confrontation from the overzealous has forced me to be pretty clear on what I *don't* believe.

 

[Purveyor Of Evil]

All religions are based on faith.

If I live to be old as Methuselah (pun intended) I'll never comprehend that statement. And that's OK. Your faith has nothing to do with my comprehension. That said, such an argument seems to make salvation a birth rite. Had you been born to a devout Muslim family in Afghanistan, the "truth" you would have been "taught" would be Islam. And different "truths" would have established your faith had you been born in India, Israel or China. And since we know that a very small percentage of people convert between major religions, doesn't having faith that what your parents (or even your community) taught you was the "truth", ultimately make salvation and damnation, to a large extent, a birth lottery?

Again, please don't take anything I'm stating or asking as an insult. As it's certainly not intended that way. I'm simply trying to have an open, cordial discussion.

I know all religions are based on faith. I believe what the Bible tells me. That is what my Catholic faith teaches. The Bible. I do not question that because I have FAITH in what I'm being told is the truth. I'm not interested in what other religions teach. Not because I hate them. It's because, to me, I only need to believe in what my Catholic faith teaches me. I love my religion. I've been Roman Catholic all of my 41 years. I went to Catholic school all 12 years. It was my choice. My parents didn't force me even though they are devout like me. Where I live is a very Catholic area. A lot of Irish, Italian, Polish, Slovak, German, Russian and others. I absolutely believe in a God. My God. The God of the Bible.

 

[Purveyor Of Evil]

How do you know what the Bible says is true?

How do you know that it isn't?

 

[nailz]

It's in the Bible. "I am the God. Your God. You shall have no other gods besides me." End of story. Good enough for me. How do you know I'm not correct? What makes you all-knowing about what you believe? Not being a smartass. Just curious.

I'm reminded of a quote: The bible is correct because it's the word of God and we know that because it's in the bible. It's Circular Logic, so "end of story" may work for you, but for people like me, It's a book, written by man, translated by man, and corrupted by man.

As for your "what makes you all knowing" comment, well.. the fact that there is not one iota of any substantial scientific proof that any god-figure exists plays a major roll into atheistic beliefs. When you form an idea for someone else to believe, you must be able to prove it. If you wish to take the belief as truth, that's fine, but if you expect others to do so, you must prove the fact.

For example:

Fact: God Exists. The Bible Says So.

But that proves nothing. You can't test it. It goes against everything we know that is scientifically accepted as fact about the universe.

To which, "prove he doesn't." comes in.. it's like this:

Fact: I am able to grow wings any time I want and can control hippos.

You wouldn't believe this without seeing it, right? What if I said to you "Prove I can't!"

Same concept.

 

[Saladbar]

 

[Purveyor Of Evil]

Fact: God Exists. The Bible Says So.



[/QUOTE]And there you have it.

 

[nailz]

The Bible. I do not question that because I have FAITH in what I'm being told is the truth.

See, I don't get this. Being able to take on the beast of doubt should make your faith stronger, shouldn't it? I mean, if it's absolutely undoubtedly true, wouldn't it be OK to question it, explore the other side and to see what they have to say? Just understanding their own belief system doesn't require you to change yours.

I'd recommend taking a religious studies or a philosophy of religion course to everyone, regardless of belief. It was one of the most fascinating classes I've ever taken.

 

[nailz]

Fact: God Exists. The Bible Says So.

And there you have it.

Alright. Cool. This is why I'm a recovering catholic.

 

[Purveyor Of Evil]

See, I don't get this. Being able to take on the beast of doubt should make your faith stronger, shouldn't it? I mean, if it's absolutely undoubtedly true, wouldn't it be OK to question it, explore the other side and to see what they have to say? Just understanding their own belief system doesn't require you to change yours.

I'd recommend taking a religious studies or a philosophy of religion course to everyone, regardless of belief. It was one of the most fascinating classes I've ever taken.

You don't have to get it. I also don't really care what other faiths have to say. I said this already. Instead of giving me ideas of what to do, why don't you wake up on a Sunday and go to your nearest Catholic church and listen to what they have to say...to you. Maybe you'll change your mind instead of trying to change mine.