Music for the nonbelievers

I agree. I am what's called a "weak" atheist in that I acknowledge the possibility I could be wrong (the strong variety says no way no how not ever); however that possibility is so dim, so remote that I don't lay awake at night wondering if Mumbo Jumbo will descend from the sky and suffocate me
with his flaming mop when it's my time.

Jaime, I don't think you are a weak athiest at all for that. In fact I applaud you. You are an open-minded athiest :).,,,.I'm the same way. I'm more in the agnostic camp. I've had some things happen in my life that I cannot explain through mere coincidence or with a logical explanation. I could fill a book with this stuff, but I tend to keep that part of my life private... So that leads me also to the open-minded camp.....I live with the idea that as an observer in the world we live in, it's very possible that I don't have all the answers either, and the reason behind whole existence may be more complicated than I have the answers to, and I've learned to accept that, but I still don't believe in an anthropomorphic
God.

So by no means are you a weak athiest Jaime. You are very confident in your beliefs which is cool.... But you are also open-minded but not gullible. That's a good quality to have :).....
 
I don't follow the King James which is different than the Bible in the Catholic faith. King James is the Protestant version.

For the sake of comparison, there are only 5 books of the Bible - Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Number, and Deuteronomy. Then there are three Judges, some Psalms. That's it. Nothing else.

What's in your text?
 
We all have different philosophies and we all see the world differently. Some people can have faith in something's absolute validity, while others see value in tangible evidence. All I see in this thread is everyone trying to convince eachother to see it their way without having to believe it, but that's not always going to be possible.

I can accept the concept of "what if" the things I believe are wrong, and I'm unable to accept differently. This is because of my worldview regarding absolutes. I have all the conviction in the universe that what I believe is the truth, but I also realize that I am a fallible human being with a limited scope of understanding, and that somewhere in the world another set of beliefs could be the truth.

Not everyone thinks that way. It took me many philosophy and theology courses in college and a spiritual wake up call a few years ago to get to that point. It seems each side just wants the other to validate their position, without necessary having to say it's true or not. Our individual semantics and worldviews are never going to get us all on the same page with this topic, nor will they ever let us have a conversation that wont upset anyone.

I said I'd stay out of it, but I keep getting sucked back in. :Spin:

I went through the same thing a few months ago. And I'm glad I did, because I'm perfectly alright with the fact, yes, FACT, that I don't really know, and I could be wrong. I'm okay with this.

If the athiests, like Zod and Jamie are correct, then none of us have anything to fear. There will be nothing when we die. So enjoy your life. It's a gift because there may very well be nothing.

Conversely, if there IS a God, then life is still very much a gift. If you believe in a god, or gods, then you owe it to It/them to live your life and enjoy it, and throwing that gift away is as much a waste as if there is no god/gods.

In short, life is a gift, regardless of what you believe. And if those of us who believe in a higher power are wrong, well, what do we really have to fear?


And that's all I'm saying about that. Maybe. I tend to get sucked back in too, Tammy.
 
If the athiests, like Zod and Jamie are correct, then none of us have anything to fear. There will be nothing when we die. So enjoy your life. It's a gift because there may very well be nothing.

Conversely, if there IS a God, then life is still very much a gift. If you believe in a god, or gods, then you owe it to It/them to live your life and enjoy it, and throwing that gift away is as much a waste as if there is no god/gods.

In short, life is a gift, regardless of what you believe. And if those of us who believe in a higher power are wrong, well, what do we really have to fear?

I actually think this is a terrific way to end the discussion about who's right and who's not. The thread has been very fun though. I have refrained from posting, but some people offered some very good points from both sides.
 
You don't have to get it. I also don't really care what other faiths have to say. I said this already. Instead of giving me ideas of what to do, why don't you wake up on a Sunday and go to your nearest Catholic church and listen to what they have to say...to you. Maybe you'll change your mind instead of trying to change mine.

I really wanted to keep my own beliefs out of it but you've basically challenged me into writing this, so, please, at least have the courtesy to read all of it. It will probably piss a lot of you off. Allow me to offer a pre-emptive apology, since that's not really my intent. I really only want to clarify my own personal belief.

I've gone to church for several years, I was even confirmed, so I know what Catholicism is all about. It's not God I have an issue with, it's the whole of the church, and the silly manbook they pass off as a control mechanism.

Once I started doing more digging into faith based beliefs and philosophy and realized Buddhism was very very similar to Christianity, and then started reading the bible and then even went so far as to realize that almost every single thing in the Christian myth has been blatently plagerized from older religions I couldn't take it seriously at all.

But then, again, that's the difference, I was immersed in the church, just like you are, however, I sought out knowledge and changed my mind because of what I'd found out, and now I see an institution that is nothing more than a hate machine desperately clinging to whatever power it has left.

I hear every day how religion destroys lives and how the bible tears families apart because sons and daughters are being kicked out of the house and disowned because they're gay or bisexual, or even for the simple reason they're non-believers. I hear about people who til 10% or more of their income to the church, who demands it, even though they can't afford to feed their children or pay their rent. I've seen first hand marriages ripped apart because one spouse 'lost their faith'. I hear about people who were abused sexually as children by priests constantly, and I see evidence of a pope who protected those priests instead of the children. I see unimaginable wealth within a Country-State where a pope sits upon a throne of gold while his followers have no where to live.

No sir, I will not be apart of that cult any longer. I went back to Mass 2 years ago for a friends wedding after having been away for about 8 years, and it was mind-boggling how robotic it was. I can't believe I'd never seen it before.

So there you have it. Every reason and every rational I have for my hatred of the church. I bet you believe I'm an atheist, right?

You'd be wrong.

I believe in god, but I would align myself closer to Buddhism if I had to pick a name for my beliefs. I don't particularly know what role god plays in the universe or my life, or what will happen when I die, but I'll find out along the way whatever happens.

My thought is that if the christian god exists, he would be infuriated with the state of the church. And certainly I think Jesus would be flabberghasted.

I'm glad Catholicism works for you. If you truely believe it helps you be a better person and allows you to love unconditionally, and you feel your quality of life is improved because of your faith, that's awesome. Maybe you, like me, attended a chruch that was full of awesome priests who truely did care about the congregation and really didn't judge at all. However, when I started looking at everything, it stopped working for me. I now simply live my life and do right by everyone. That's good enough and works for me.
 
I agree. I am what's called a "weak" atheist in that I acknowledge the possibility I could be wrong (the strong variety says no way no how not ever); however that possibility is so dim, so remote that I don't lay awake at night wondering if Mumbo Jumbo will descend from the sky and suffocate me with his flaming mop when it's my time.
Ironically, I think strong atheists begin to fall prey to a faith of their own. As you pointed out earlier, you can't prove a negative. Consequently, there's no scientific way to discount for a "prime mover". To ignore that fact begins to require a certain degree of faith. Do I think one exists? No. Is it possible? Yes. Do I think that prime mover is the god of any or all religions? Definitely not.

Excellent post Orbweaver...
This.

What's in your text?
That's awesome.

I believe in god, but I would align myself closer to Buddhism if I had to pick a name for my beliefs.
It seems most Buddhists (in the the western world) are ex-Christian, who want a spirituality that agnosticism can't offer. Plus, Buddhism offers a beautiful world view. The world would be a much better place, if we lived by Buddhist philosophy (or at least what I understand of it).
 
Does a band who releases a religious-themed song become a religious/"christian" band? Does it take an entire album? Is there a tipping point?

(You can replace "christian" with "muslim" or "pagan" or "satanic" and the question still stands, I suppose.)

I'm puzzled by the psychology of these musical issues. For me, I can't separate out Bill Tsamis's Lordian Guard material from his Warlord stuff in my mind (and that was true for me long before the last Warlord album, with its mix of both Warlord and Lordian Guard songs).

And yet I don't get a similar reaction from Fates Warning ("Kiss of Death", "Kyrie Eleison") or Metallica ("Creeping Death").

How religious must a band's music be before you perceive it as a central piece of what they do and who they are?
 
I look at lyrics as nothing more than a poetic vehicle for delivering the vocal instrument. Epic spiritual journey or a banana - I don't really care. On the other hand, I have a difficult time listening to rap and hip-hop because of the lyrics, so perhaps I'm being hypocritical.

I lost most of my interest in Loudness's work when they started writing in English. It may well be that the lyrics on "Law of Devil's Land" are as insipid as the lyrics on "Thunder in the East", but I can listen to their first few albums in blissful denial.
 
Does a band who releases a religious-themed song become a religious/"christian" band? Does it take an entire album? Is there a tipping point?

(You can replace "christian" with "muslim" or "pagan" or "satanic" and the question still stands, I suppose.)

I'm puzzled by the psychology of these musical issues. For me, I can't separate out Bill Tsamis's Lordian Guard material from his Warlord stuff in my mind (and that was true for me long before the last Warlord album, with its mix of both Warlord and Lordian Guard songs).

And yet I don't get a similar reaction from Fates Warning ("Kiss of Death", "Kyrie Eleison") or Metallica ("Creeping Death").

How religious must a band's music be before you perceive it as a central piece of what they do and who they are?

That's a great question. How far does a band have to go to be considered religious and/or Christian or Satanic?
 
How religious must a band's music be before you perceive it as a central piece of what they do and who they are?
There's a difference between talking about religious topics and writing songs of praise. Metallica's "Creeping Death" is a song about a biblical topic, Theocracy's song "Mountain" is a song of praise and worship.

As for a tipping point, I suspect that's up to the listener. For some it matters not at all, for others there's a tipping point. For me, if there's a song on an album I feel the need to skip over, it kills the album.
 
Does a band who releases a religious-themed song become a religious/"christian" band? Does it take an entire album? Is there a tipping point?

(You can replace "christian" with "muslim" or "pagan" or "satanic" and the question still stands, I suppose.)

I'm puzzled by the psychology of these musical issues. For me, I can't separate out Bill Tsamis's Lordian Guard material from his Warlord stuff in my mind (and that was true for me long before the last Warlord album, with its mix of both Warlord and Lordian Guard songs).

And yet I don't get a similar reaction from Fates Warning ("Kiss of Death", "Kyrie Eleison") or Metallica ("Creeping Death").

How religious must a band's music be before you perceive it as a central piece of what they do and who they are?

The difference is when the point of a song or band is investigative/inquisitive against when it is EVANGELICAL (which is the creepy nasty one) versus when it is straight ahead skeptical or disowning.

Tsamis in Warlord and Arch in FW work their lyrics in an investigative and curious nature. Tsamis eventually decided he liked what he saw, and so Lordian Guard was Evangelical. Dude could still write hummable melodies.

Hetfield in Metallica was raised in the programming of Christian Science. It's the programming he knows, and so he investigates what that's done to him and for him. It always sounds like he wants to shake it away and replace it with something better, but he doesn't know how or with what. And the programming is too deep for him to say there's nothing period. James is constantly frustrated. That's why he turned to Alcohol.
 
I really wanted to keep my own beliefs out of it but you've basically challenged me into writing this, so, please, at least have the courtesy to read all of it. It will probably piss a lot of you off. Allow me to offer a pre-emptive apology, since that's not really my intent. I really only want to clarify my own personal belief.

I've gone to church for several years, I was even confirmed, so I know what Catholicism is all about. It's not God I have an issue with, it's the whole of the church, and the silly manbook they pass off as a control mechanism.

Once I started doing more digging into faith based beliefs and philosophy and realized Buddhism was very very similar to Christianity, and then started reading the bible and then even went so far as to realize that almost every single thing in the Christian myth has been blatently plagerized from older religions I couldn't take it seriously at all.

But then, again, that's the difference, I was immersed in the church, just like you are, however, I sought out knowledge and changed my mind because of what I'd found out, and now I see an institution that is nothing more than a hate machine desperately clinging to whatever power it has left.

I hear every day how religion destroys lives and how the bible tears families apart because sons and daughters are being kicked out of the house and disowned because they're gay or bisexual, or even for the simple reason they're non-believers. I hear about people who til 10% or more of their income to the church, who demands it, even though they can't afford to feed their children or pay their rent. I've seen first hand marriages ripped apart because one spouse 'lost their faith'. I hear about people who were abused sexually as children by priests constantly, and I see evidence of a pope who protected those priests instead of the children. I see unimaginable wealth within a Country-State where a pope sits upon a throne of gold while his followers have no where to live.

No sir, I will not be apart of that cult any longer. I went back to Mass 2 years ago for a friends wedding after having been away for about 8 years, and it was mind-boggling how robotic it was. I can't believe I'd never seen it before.

So there you have it. Every reason and every rational I have for my hatred of the church. I bet you believe I'm an atheist, right?

You'd be wrong.

I believe in god, but I would align myself closer to Buddhism if I had to pick a name for my beliefs. I don't particularly know what role god plays in the universe or my life, or what will happen when I die, but I'll find out along the way whatever happens.

My thought is that if the christian god exists, he would be infuriated with the state of the church. And certainly I think Jesus would be flabberghasted.

I'm glad Catholicism works for you. If you truely believe it helps you be a better person and allows you to love unconditionally, and you feel your quality of life is improved because of your faith, that's awesome. Maybe you, like me, attended a chruch that was full of awesome priests who truely did care about the congregation and really didn't judge at all. However, when I started looking at everything, it stopped working for me. I now simply live my life and do right by everyone. That's good enough and works for me.

This is a very profound statement, and I agree 100%. In fact it almost parallels my "CHURCH" experiences. I no longer attend any type of "Organized" religious services, but I do believe in God, and will worship him in my own way. I got to the point I hated "organized religion" telling me i had to do this and I had to do that, you can't do that, you can watch this or that, you have to dress like this or that. They wanted to be controlling, like organized religion is the only thing that can save us from ourselves, well all religions have a different point of view a different way of worship, but they all say that they are the only religion that matters and all others are wrong. So who do we believe, my answer is believe in yourself, and seek the answer you feel is best for you. My $.02 worth
 
It seems most Buddhists (in the the western world) are ex-Christian, who want a spirituality that agnosticism can't offer. Plus, Buddhism offers a beautiful world view. The world would be a much better place, if we lived by Buddhist philosophy (or at least what I understand of it).

I was turned onto it during my Philosophy class, we studied it for half the semester, the other half was Christianity, and we delved slightly into Taoism. I think what really struck me the most was how similar Siddhartha was to Jesus, especially their overall message, and how much more personally spiritual (as you said) Buddhism is vs Catholicism. It's not the lack of a god-figure that drew me to Buddhism, but rather the philosophy of the open hand.
 
Does a band who releases a religious-themed song become a religious/"christian" band? Does it take an entire album? Is there a tipping point?

Blind Guardian has released Christian themed songs, but I don't consider them a christain band, Elvenking has released songs based on paganism, I don't consider them a pagan band.

Religiously themed lyrics are all well and good, unless that's all they sing about.
 
Good points J-Man. I myself am spiritual but not religious. Yet I've read books by athiets such as Richard Dawkins just to get their side of the story. He's funny but serious at the same time, so I enjoy his books. I keep an open mind...One of the most PSI convicing books I've recently read is titled "Parapsychology and the skeptics" by Chris Carter...The studies in that book, some that have been reported in scientific journals, is pretty convincing on proving the existence of paranormal....Another book is "Irreducible Mind" which is a bulky 800 pages, and also provides exceptional evidence of the paranormal...I've very picky when it comes to books providing evidence, because most claiming proof, don't really prove anything....The above 2 are an exception.
 
I do not follow the King James version and I don't believe in any of that horseshit you posted if that's in there.

Uh-oh...better be careful... you are about to derail your entire argument. Now you are telling us that you are qualified to tell people which parts of the bible are "true" and "still relevent" today??? Please tell us your theological qualifications which make you able to do so.

Also...if any portion of the unerrent "word of God" is proven to not be true or false than the entire thing has to be tossed out because "God Is Perfect." If you don't believe that God said to do those things (he did) than how can you believe the other stuff.

As a former Baptist Minister, I can tell you that the King James follows closer to the original texts than the NIV...and when given a choice I prefered it in study and preperation of sermons. However, all of them are based on interpretaion of biblical hebrew which, at the time it was penned, did not even have vowels yet. This means you have to use context clues to decipher the original manuscripts because, for example, the and thee look the same. Hmmm....that might lend to some interesting mistakes.

This is not a insult to you...I am just pointing out the same circular reasoning and holes in logic that ultimatly helped me decide to abandon my faith. I found myself making the same arguments that you are making now...and like you...I was the only one in the room gettting upset.

Just relax and realize that no one is telling you what to believe...this is because NO ONE KNOWS. I don't know anything...you might be right...you might not. What I do know is that you do not know either...and niether does your parents, your pastor, your church, or any other human being. And the idea that I might blindly follow something that no one knows ANYTHING about is insane to me. Telling me it is true because it is in a book that was written by people that also DID NOT KNOW is not enough of a reason for me to abandon logic and sanity.

Now, lets get back to the discussion on music and the lyrical impact of various religious subject matter...because that is the purpose of this thread. Take a deep breath...you are still you and everything you believe in is there for you if you still want it to be....

Now...for the guy asking for Christian albums to check out, here are my favs.

Pathogenic Occular Dissonance by Tourniquet (freaking moist)
Dimensions by Believer
Scrolls of the Megaloth by Mortification (this is death metal...but good)
The Passing by Betrayal

Do not, and I repeat DO NOT, buy any Mortification after the thrid album because it really, really, really, really gnaws balls. Trust me on this.

I think allot like the others here...WHO CARES what the guy is singing about. The song is either good or it sucks and really it depends on the whole thing to do this. This is like saying a cake is awful because you don't like the kind of flour they used to bake it. Just eat the damn thing already...hahaha.
 
Do not, and I repeat DO NOT, buy any Mortification after the thrid album because it really, really, really, really gnaws balls. Trust me on this.

:lol::lol:

Awesome. I lol'd.

I actually do have Megaloth and it is a decent album. May have to pull it out here since I haven't listened to it in a while.