Music for the nonbelievers

[Yippee38]

What are your guys thoughts on Evergrey's Inner Circle album? There are without a doubt religious overtones to the album, though not necessarily in a positive light.

I don't see this as so much an album speaking against God, but instead an album speaking against religion. Two separate things.

Depends on the context. If it's some malcontent being pointlessly hostile, they're no better than the fundamentalists (and they annoy me as much as I'm sure assholes like Limbaugh and Robertson annoy you guys, because they speak for a minority), but I've seen that accusation leveled against people who were doing nothing more than standing their ground against theist encroachment on their own personal rights. I am a full-flag supporter of people being able to believe whatever the hell they want to believe, as long as they don't insist that the world around them conform to their particular beliefs. Do you see the difference?

My feelings are the same. That's why I don't discuss religion generally. I'm not trying to convince anybody that I'm right and they're wrong. It annoys me to no end when others do this (regardless of what it is they are trying to preach).

However, keep in mind that where one person's rights begin, another person's rights end. So if an atheist's rights are being encroached upon, and steps are taken to prevent that. The theist's rights are likely now being encroached upon. This is why I would never run for political office. How can you solve a dilemma like that? I don't know how. What's the middle ground? AFAIK, there isn't any. (being rhetorical btw.)

 

[jaimek]

How do you know that it isn't?

How do you know the Invisible Pink Unicorn doesn't carry us all over the rainbow when we die? You can't disprove a negative - but that does not automatically make the reverse statement true.

 

[Saladbar]

I only need to believe in what my Catholic faith teaches me. I love my religion. I've been Roman Catholic all of my 41 years. I went to Catholic school all 12 years. It was my choice.

Just a question, how old were you when you were baptized?

 

[jaimek]

Oh, with regard to The Inner Circle (I saw this earlier and got distracted and forgot to address it), Tom repeatedly stated that he was not targeting religion or A religion specifically, but those who commit abuse under its protection. They addressed this a bit on Recreation Day as well with "Unforgivable Sin." To me, it feels more like TIC is talking about cults rather than the standard organized religions.

 

[Purveyor Of Evil]

How do you know the Invisible Pink Unicorn doesn't carry us all over the rainbow when we die? You can't disprove a negative - but that does not automatically make the reverse statement true.

Here we go again. Because my Catholic faith teaches me that if I deserve, my soul goes to Heaven. If not, I descend into Hell. That's why.

 

[DustyV]

Fact: God Exists. The Bible Says So.
And there you have it.

Yea but if I'm not mistaken, the King James Bible also says horrible horrible things....

such as:
Put to death any child who strikes a parent.
Stone to death any child who disobeys his parents.
and those are 2 of the more mild examples...

I don't care if it's the Kings James Version. It's still the Bible...
Should we take that on faith that the above should be adhered by?

Sorry, I just had to sneak that one in.....
I'll be good now

I just think that taking the literal word of ANYTHING written thousands of years ago can be very very dangerous....

 

[Purveyor Of Evil]

Yea but if I'm not mistaken, the King James Bible also says horrible horrible things....

such as:
Put to death any child who strikes a parent.
Stone to death any child who disobeys his parents.
and those are 2 of the more mild examples...

I don't care if it's the Kings James Version. It's still the Bible...
Should we take that on faith that the above should be adhered by?

Sorry, I just had to sneak that one in.....
I'll be good now

I just think that taking the literal word of ANYTHING written thousands of years ago can be very very dangerous....

I do not follow the King James version and I don't believe in any of that horseshit you posted if that's in there.

 

[Saladbar]

I don't believe in any of that horseshit you posted if that's in there.

So you haven't read the bible then? Or are you just pick and choosing what you want to believe?

 

[Purveyor Of Evil]

So you haven't read the bible then? Or are you just pick and choosing what you want to believe?

I don't follow the King James which is different than the Bible in the Catholic faith. King James is the Protestant version.

 

[Purveyor Of Evil]

So you haven't read the bible then? Or are you just pick and choosing what you want to believe?

Besides, what I meant by "not believe" is that I don't believe in harming anyone for ridiculous reasons such as those posted.

 

[Saladbar]

I don't follow the King James which is different than the Bible in the Catholic faith. King James is the Protestant version.

So the bible is now not good enough, now it has to be the correct version. :zombie:

I'm signing out of this thread gentlemen. See ya.

 

[Purveyor Of Evil]

So the bible is now not good enough, now it has to be the correct version. :zombie:

I'm signing out of this thread gentlemen. See ya.

Where did I say correct? THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT VERSIONS.

 

[DustyV]

Purveyor, it is in there, but my point being is to just show how the literal meaning of something can be very dangerous, if people take it on "faith" that it's true without exception......
People don't accept the King James Version because it wouldn't be accepted by our society. The Kings James Version is about the most sick and evil of a book that I've ever read....

I'm not saying this to pick on you, some of my best friends are Christian and Catholic. I'm just saying that faith can be dangerous if someone takes the LITERAL word of a book to be the 100% valid truth
without any possiblity of there being an error when it was written. That's all I"m saying....

 

[Purveyor Of Evil]

Purveyor, it is in there, but my point being is to just show how the literal meaning of something can be very dangerous, if people take it on "faith" that it's true without exception......
People don't accept the King James Version because it wouldn't be accepted by our society. The Kings James Version is about the most sick and evil of a book that I've ever read....

I'm not saying this to pick on you, some of my best friends are Christian and Catholic. I'm just saying that faith can be dangerous if someone takes the LITERAL word of a book to be the 100% valid truth
without any possiblity of there being an error when it was written. That's all I"m saying....

The Old Testament is the most violent with eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth mentality. The New Testament is different. It teaches forgiveness and turn the other cheek. For those who don't believe me, read it yourself. You'll see. Both books are radically different.

 

[DustyV]

The Old Testament is the most violent with eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth mentality. The New Testament is different. It teaches forgiveness and turn the other cheek. For those who don't believe me, read it yourself. You'll see. Both books are radically different.

I've read both Testaments, not to mention other religious books on theology.

I always tell religious folks who attempt to push their belief on me(nobody on this forum)that , if Catholicism or Christianity work for ya and bring you a certain level of comfort inside, then go with it.......

 

[sh0kr0k]

We all have different philosophies and we all see the world differently. Some people can have faith in something's absolute validity, while others see value in tangible evidence. All I see in this thread is everyone trying to convince eachother to see it their way without having to believe it, but that's not always going to be possible.

I can accept the concept of "what if" the things I believe are wrong, and I'm unable to accept differently. This is because of my worldview regarding absolutes. I have all the conviction in the universe that what I believe is the truth, but I also realize that I am a fallible human being with a limited scope of understanding, and that somewhere in the world another set of beliefs could be the truth.

Not everyone thinks that way. It took me many philosophy and theology courses in college and a spiritual wake up call a few years ago to get to that point. It seems each side just wants the other to validate their position, without necessary having to say it's true or not. Our individual semantics and worldviews are never going to get us all on the same page with this topic, nor will they ever let us have a conversation that wont upset anyone.

I said I'd stay out of it, but I keep getting sucked back in. :Spin:

 

[Purveyor Of Evil]

I've read both Testaments, not to mention other religious books on theology.

I always tell religious folks who attempt to push their belief on me(nobody on this forum)that , if Catholicism or Christianity work for ya and bring you a certain level of comfort inside, then go with it.......

Good answer. With that, I'm done with topic. Thank you all for participating. Hopefully, we've made positive impressions on each other. Now back to the metal talk on the Progpower forum!

 

[General Zod]

Our individual semantics and worldviews are never going to get us all on the same page with this topic, nor will they ever let us have a conversation that wont upset anyone.

This. Well said Tammy.

I said I'd stay out of it, but I keep getting sucked back in. :Spin:

I know that feeling.

Good answer. With that, I'm done with topic. Thank you all for participating. Hopefully, we've made positive impressions on each other. Now back to the metal talk on the Progpower forum!

Cheers Bro.

 

[jaimek]

Purveyor, it was you who asked questions. I'm sorry if you don't like the answers or the reasoning behind the answers, but you wanted to know! I understand that faith gets you through the day, and that's cool, but if you want to bring that to the table, we will challenge it - not because we're assholes, but because that's what we *do*, trying to examine things from all sides.

The King James is also a classic example of how much the Bible can change in a very short period of time. Sure, you don't accept *that* version as canon, but the text has changed far more than that over the time even in the version you *do* accept. It's like that kid's game of Telephone Operator, where you sit 20 people in a circle, whisper a phrase in one person's ear, and by the time it passes all the way to the end of the circle, it doesn't even remotely resemble its origin. Except with the King James version, it was done purposely!

In case you're not aware - most atheists started out as Christian (although I did not), and are more than familiar with the contents of the Bible. I own one, and have read it. I *understand* the precepts of faith; it just does not resonate with me at all.

I can accept the concept of "what if" the things I believe are wrong, and I'm unable to accept differently. This is because of my worldview regarding absolutes. I have all the conviction in the universe that what I believe is the truth, but I also realize that I am a fallible human being with a limited scope of understanding, and that somewhere in the world another set of beliefs could be the truth.

I agree. I am what's called a "weak" atheist in that I acknowledge the possibility I could be wrong (the strong variety says no way no how not ever); however that possibility is so dim, so remote that I don't lay awake at night wondering if Mumbo Jumbo will descend from the sky and suffocate me with his flaming mop when it's my time.

 

[BenMech]

I take your point b to be a wise ass crack at me. I'd argue the point if I thought you knew what you were talking about. I haven't insulted anyone here, so don't start your shit with me.

Wise yes. Ass? Not a crack, just an observation.

I have no issue with a guy/girl being Roman Catholic. I've had RC girlfriends in the past. Also Protestant, Jewish, Atheist, and I got my eye on a nice gal raised in Shinto. If you're into the belief, go in all the way, but that means NO CHERRYPICKING ALLOWED. ANYTHING The Vatican says, you do. As long as you know that's the most extreme you can get and live to its letter, fine. MOST PEOPLE DON'T. Does that make them really devout? Probably not, so I can guess you're most likely a cowardly hypocrite.

But I don't know you, so I won't make that claim. Don't make the same one about me.