Music for the nonbelievers

[General Zod]

ROYAL HUNT to some extend, some lyrics are Christian Themed

I don't Andre would consider them a Christian band. We discussed religion...

Greg: So let’s talk a bit more about “Collision Course”. The cover art kind of sets the tone. You have a Christian cross and an Islamic crescent moon converging, in front of burning cities. I’ve read the lyrics, but I’m a bit unclear as to whether it speaks to current day issues, the historical or a mixture of the two.

André: It started as an idea. So when I realized I’m actually making the “Paradox II”. So I have to go back a little bit… where did it start? In short terms, Christ died 2,000 years ago and we’re imagining his coming back. OK… what changed? And in the end, nothing has changed. The whole thing is the same, because humans do what humans do, this and that. So in “Collision Course” I did the same things. I went back and said, there’s all this conflict we have, most of them are religion-based, in a way. How did it all start? Basically, my idea about this whole thing it’s not competing religions, it’s more… let’s call it a hardware. The whole entourage, the size of your church, which book are you using, and blah, blah, blah. On purpose, I’m simplifying very much. But everything is around religion, which starts the conflict most of the time. One part don’t eat pork, another part don’t eat this… It’s so complicated they can actually start fighting about it. And it kind of culminated in the last five years or so, as we’ve seen from 9/11, and the wars, and Europe’s been involved in this stuff since the seventies, with terrorism. And basically, when you start thinking about why, when you start looking for a reason, it’s extremely stupid. Extremely. You can better understand some territorial wars, but religion and some ideas? That’s the top of it. So I wrote about it, how it started, we want to go right, you want to go left, we have one god, we have three, so on, and so. And today we have modern guns in people’s hands. So that’s the basic idea of it.

Greg: Are you a religious person?

André: No, I am not. I did so many interviews about it, some people suspect I go to church or I’m burning churches down. I’m probably in the middle of it. I think every person is religious, in very different ways, besides the people who go to church every Sunday. If you’re in some trouble or something is bothering you, there’s always this tiny little hope about something strong above will rescue or help you. You don’t have to pray anything. Inside yourself, you can’t help believing in something. But I’m not the person who believes in that icon, that god or something like that. Religious probably, in some way, like everybody else. But not practicing, I’m not going to church.

 

[lady_space]

Ok, I have a lot to do today but couldn't resist checking out this thread, and now contributing my two cents' worth. Just going to make some points/statements, and not worry about the writing, so forgive my lack of eloquency. That's what we have Zod for anyway.

First off, I'm am an atheist (or probably more accurately, a secular humanist, but you understand what I mean). Yes, if I hear a band is a "Christian band," I tend to be wary. (As opposed to a band where everyone happens to be Christian, if you understand my differentiation.) I don't mind them being Christian, per se, but I don't want to be preached at/to, and I also am not going to enjoy singing along to "Jesus Rocks!" or some such. That said, I am also made uncomfortable with any over-the-top "Satanist" type lyrics. Mostly because it starts giving me a headache after I roll my eyes for an hour. Seriously, I just find that sort of nonsense silly. I also don't think there are any "We are Viking warriors! Thor FTW!!" type lyrics that I can get past either.

Like Greg said, lyrics are important to me. But there are plenty of songs out there with Christian-related themes that I find interesting (just don't ask me to come up with one at the moment). But cross the line into "preachy" or even "We are Christians, yay us" and I am not interested. Ditto with people--I have plenty of friends who are Christians, some even pretty devout, but they don't preach at me (it wouldn't do any good anyway), and they are not all "you're not on our team, you can't play with us" either. (Does that make sense?)

Neil Peart's lyrics resonate with me. I also like the "questioning" sort of nature of a lot of them. If you don't question what you believe, how can you say you really believe it anyway? I've met way too many people in my life who at Question #1 retreat and start that "OMG, you're going to hell" bullshit. I understand they're scared of what the answers might be, but I just don't get that mentality. *shrug*

Also, I think Jaime (or someone) mentioned something about having morality minus "Big Daddy"... what is so hard for some people to understand about that? I think basic morality springs not from religion but from our concern/care for others. I think that's innate--we're social creatures. I think morals came first, codifying them into a religion came later. Early "religions" weren't really all that concerned with morality, were they? (Sorry, not the religious history expert in my family... maybe I can get him to contribute to this. ) Seems to me they were a way of coping with and explaining the world.

On a sort-of-related note, Jim played me some completely stupid video by Insane Clown Posse. I can't remember the name, but I was shocked it wasn't a joke. It's something about miracles (which hey, I think there's some awesome shit in the world too, account for it how you will), and there is the stupidest line EVER. Something about how magnets work, then I don't want to be talking to no scientist. Truly, mind-numbingly STUPID. (So something else I don't get, although now I'm getting far afield... why can't religion and science co-exist for some people??? It's really not that difficult.) Now songs/lyrics like that, yeah, it makes me cringe. Even if it were a better song (with a video with a budget), the rampant stupidity just slays me, religious or not.

Okay, done ranting.

Shaye F. Breed

 

[dcowboys311]

On a sort-of-related note, Jim played me some completely stupid video by Insane Clown Posse. I can't remember the name, but I was shocked it wasn't a joke. It's something about miracles (which hey, I think there's some awesome shit in the world too, account for it how you will), and there is the stupidest line EVER. Something about how magnets work, then I don't want to be talking to no scientist. Truly, mind-numbingly STUPID. (So something else I don't get, although now I'm getting far afield... why can't religion and science co-exist for some people??? It's really not that difficult.) Now songs/lyrics like that, yeah, it makes me cringe. Even if it were a better song (with a video with a budget), the rampant stupidity just slays me, religious or not.

oh god oh god

can we please just abandon this discussion and focus on the ICP Miracles video and the associated memes?

 

[Saladbar]

oh god oh god

can we please just abandon this discussion and focus on the ICP Miracles video and the associated memes?

"There's magic everywhere in this bitch"

 

[J-Man]

I don't Andre would consider them a Christian band. We discussed religion...

Greg: So let’s talk a bit more about “Collision Course”. The cover art kind of sets the tone. You have a Christian cross and an Islamic crescent moon converging, in front of burning cities. I’ve read the lyrics, but I’m a bit unclear as to whether it speaks to current day issues, the historical or a mixture of the two.

André: It started as an idea. So when I realized I’m actually making the “Paradox II”. So I have to go back a little bit… where did it start? In short terms, Christ died 2,000 years ago and we’re imagining his coming back. OK… what changed? And in the end, nothing has changed. The whole thing is the same, because humans do what humans do, this and that. So in “Collision Course” I did the same things. I went back and said, there’s all this conflict we have, most of them are religion-based, in a way. How did it all start? Basically, my idea about this whole thing it’s not competing religions, it’s more… let’s call it a hardware. The whole entourage, the size of your church, which book are you using, and blah, blah, blah. On purpose, I’m simplifying very much. But everything is around religion, which starts the conflict most of the time. One part don’t eat pork, another part don’t eat this… It’s so complicated they can actually start fighting about it. And it kind of culminated in the last five years or so, as we’ve seen from 9/11, and the wars, and Europe’s been involved in this stuff since the seventies, with terrorism. And basically, when you start thinking about why, when you start looking for a reason, it’s extremely stupid. Extremely. You can better understand some territorial wars, but religion and some ideas? That’s the top of it. So I wrote about it, how it started, we want to go right, you want to go left, we have one god, we have three, so on, and so. And today we have modern guns in people’s hands. So that’s the basic idea of it.

Greg: Are you a religious person?

André: No, I am not. I did so many interviews about it, some people suspect I go to church or I’m burning churches down. I’m probably in the middle of it. I think every person is religious, in very different ways, besides the people who go to church every Sunday. If you’re in some trouble or something is bothering you, there’s always this tiny little hope about something strong above will rescue or help you. You don’t have to pray anything. Inside yourself, you can’t help believing in something. But I’m not the person who believes in that icon, that god or something like that. Religious probably, in some way, like everybody else. But not practicing, I’m not going to church.

Very good comments by Andre, I just got the impression from some of the songs on their album "Watchers" my bad

 

[General Zod]

Yes, if I hear a band is a "Christian band," I tend to be wary. (As opposed to a band where everyone happens to be Christian, if you understand my differentiation.) I don't mind them being Christian, per se, but I don't want to be preached at/to, and I also am not going to enjoy singing along to "Jesus Rocks!" or some such.

Well said. I use to love that song "Mountain" by Theocracy*. The music and melody are brilliant. But once I took note of the lyrics, I just couldn't listen to it anymore. I can't bring myself to crank up a song about how I would be hopeless without Jesus.

*Side note... how much vodka must one consume before they buy a disc by a band called Theocracy without realizing they're a Christian band?

Although I clearly discovered the answer, I can't recall the exact vodka quantity.

If you don't question what you believe, how can you say you really believe it anyway?

This. A thousand times this.

I think basic morality springs not from religion but from our concern/care for others. I think that's innate--we're social creatures. I think morals came first, codifying them into a religion came later. Early "religions" weren't really all that concerned with morality, were they?

Agreed. Morality is a product of its time, not religion.

 

[General Zod]

Very good comments by Andre, I just got the impression from some of the songs on their album "Watchers" my bad

It's impossible to know. I'm an atheist. But religion fascinates me. I think it's completely possible, as a non-believer, to write lyrics about religion without them being for or against. Religion is simply great fodder for lyrics.

 

[AngraRULES]

NARNIA
7 Days
DARKWATER
SAVIOUR MACHINE
ROYAL HUNT to some extend, some lyrics are Christian Themed

Darkwater is not a religious band. =)

 

[nailz]

It's not okay for Christianity to be used as part of a song/story, but it's okay for Paganism? That seems like typical double-standard bull, to me.

But technically, paganism isn't anywhere near as mainstream or as negatively perceived as Christianity. There's a ton of bad feelings surrounding Christianity from a lot of different groups, and these groups want nothing to do with it and don't want to be associated with it in any way. Comparing a pagan 'storyline' or even a flat out serious pagan band isn't likely to strike a chord in a large group. I think, maybe, a better comparison would be a Islamic band. There's another religion that is regarded by several as just as harmful as Christianity, and I think you'd find the same pushback from the same people.

 

[compurocker]

As for lyrics about Odin... I think of Odin the same way I think of Zeus or Hercules; as mythical figures not to be considered seriously in a religious context. To that end, writing about Odin strikes me as no different than writing about dragons and wizards.

As a nonbeliever, is not the Christian God also a mythical figure?

 

[BenMech]

Or fate is just the weight of circumstances. You make do with the hand you were dealt; luck and elbow grease are equally responsible for your successes and failures in life, not destiny or prayers.

How do you this? How do you know prayer has never helped anyone?

a) Let's say for the sake of argument that there is an external force. Why would the one you "speak" to be the one, if not many or none, to fulfill the request? What if the request was specifically denied, or generally denied? That's a bit of a nasty crapshoot, ehh? It's one thing to play the whole table and see which pings back.

b) Let's say there's no external force. What do you gain by the time spent communicating with the absence of anything? We have a term for that called "Mental illness", and can be treated, in a longterm.

 

[eppst1]

As a nonbeliever, is not the Christian God also a mythical figure?

That's interesting that you mention this, I was just having this conversation about this very item. To me, I agree with the above post.

 

[General Zod]

As a nonbeliever, is not the Christian God also a mythical figure?

In a word, yes. However, I always try to keep these dialogs constructive and cordial. While I may disagree with my religious friends, I have no desire to insult them or their beliefs.

 

[compurocker]

Sure, sure. Not meant to be insulting at all. No one should be insulted by anothers' beliefs if they are not forcing them upon them.

Just wondering where the disconnect lies. If the ancient Gods are mythical and therefore songs about them are a non-issue, and the current Gods are also mythical, then why are songs about them an issue?

Full disclosure, I am a nonbeliever, and I am having trouble answering this question myself. Which is why I posed it.

I think it has to do with the perception that by and large most people agree with nonbelievers that the ancient Gods are mythical and most people disagree with the nonbelievers about the more current monotheistic Gods. I'm not sure why it should matter what others believe when it comes to our own musical tastes, but I think that's probably part of it.

 

[OrbWeaver]

In a word, yes. However, I always try to keep these dialogs constructive and cordial. While I may disagree with my religious friends, I have no desire to insult them or their beliefs.

Right, but it makes sense that as an atheist, you would view a monotheistic god as a myth. Though I realize many who believe may be offended by such a statement. Though I think if you believe in a monotheistic deity, truly believe, having someone call that deity a myth wouldn't really bother a true believer.


@Nailz: That makes sense, but I still call double standard. I guess I'm one of the few (in general, not necessarily on this forum - folks seem fairly unconcerned about lyrical content, for the most part here on UM) that doesn't really get my panties in a twist over whether the music is pagan, Christian, Islamic, etc... As I stated in my first comment on this thread, as long as the music isn't denigrating to, or encouraging violence towards those with a different system of belief, I don't really mind it.

 

[FatesFan]

Darkwater is not a religious band. =)

He prob meant Harmony?

 

[FatesFan]

*Side note... how much vodka must one consume before they buy a disc by a band called Theocracy without realizing they're a Christian band?

Although I clearly discovered the answer, I can't recall the exact vodka quantity.

Freakin awesome!

 

[Yippee38]

Just wondering where the disconnect lies. If the ancient Gods are mythical and therefore songs about them are a non-issue, and the current Gods are also mythical, then why are songs about them an issue?

I think the answer to this lies in the realm of religious persecution. Specifically, for people who have been harassed by theists for their lack of belief, they tend to push back rather strongly. I've talked to lots of people who are very outspoken against religion. When I ask them why, it's always because the religious fanatics are trying to push it on them.

I personally think that's funny, because when those atheist become outspoken against religion, they are then trying to force their beliefs (or lack thereof) on others. Isn't that what they were complaining about in the first place?

Like most of you guys, I don't have a problem with most lyrics as long as they're not preachy (towards any religion or lack thereof). For example, I really don't like Epica's Divine Conspiracy because I get tired of listening to Mark Jansen's trying to convince me that religion is bad and evil. On the other hand, I have a hard time listening to Stryper because it's a bit too preachy too.

To change subject subtly, I think it's a shame that bands come out and say, "We're not a Christian band." I don't think it's a shame because they are denying it or anything. I think it's a shame because most people don't know what your intent is. (I've recently learned that trying to guess another person's intent is a very bad idea and leads to bad things happening.) However, something I've known for a very long time is that perception is EVERYTHING. If your audience thinks you are a Christian band, it doesn't matter what your intent is. For right or wrong. Just an observation.

BTW, I don't debate religion with people. It's a waste of time. I'm not going to change their mind, and they are not going to change mine. I don't like learning about religions though. I think it's fascinating to learn about current and past religions. It's kind of a sociological thing. I did once get into an argument with somebody about religion once though. Ironically, it was with another Christian. He was, what we called "a bible beater." He, and his group, would stand outside of the bars at night on the weekends and yell at people coming out, threatening them with hell and damnation if they didn't change their ways. I questioned his methods and said that he chases more people away than he "saves." He said, "But if I save one person, it will all be worth it." Well, if you save one, but chase away another 5 potential people, then it shouldn't be worth it. If you chose another, less idiotic, approach, you could have saved 6 instead of just 1. Now, in your view of things, you damned 5 whom you could have saved. He didn't get it.

That was the only religious argument I've ever been in, or will get in.

 

[sh0kr0k]

And many of the Black Metal bands I listen to, aren't even singing in English. In a weird way, I actually appreciate not understanding the lyrics. It allows the vocals to take on a completely instrumental quality, devoid of message, that is impossible to accomplish when the style calls for clean vocals.

Since I have a feeling I'm not going to contribute more than I've already said in this thread, I'll offer this side note. Zod, this is exactly 50% of the reason I listen to music in other languages. I thought I was the only one to see it that way when most of the responses I get are, "why would you listen to something in Japanese?" or "I'd like them better if they sang in English"

Lyrics in another language allow for any vocal style and, if you're diligent enough, you can still learn to sing along without having to know the message. I can't tell you how many Japanese rock songs I can sing note for note but have no idea what they are about. I'm fine with that. I guess this can relate to the topic because I look at lyrics as nothing more than a poetic vehicle for delivering the vocal instrument. Epic spiritual journey or a banana - I don't really care. On the other hand, I have a difficult time listening to rap and hip-hop because of the lyrics, so perhaps I'm being hypocritical.

 

[nailz]

@Nailz: That makes sense, but I still call double standard. I guess I'm one of the few (in general, not necessarily on this forum - folks seem fairly unconcerned about lyrical content.

Different strokes etc, I suppose. I don't particularly think I care for lyrics that knock on the door of worship to any particular god or gods. I can do paganism because it manifests as loving nature. My beliefs are my own, and I don't feel it necessary or prudent to share them in idle worship.

If you'd like to point out a double standard, I do have no problem with songs or bands that attack religion/god(s). In fact, I'd say I enjoy them maybe a little bit more. I think, in my case, that's because it opens up new philosophies to me, but I absolutely can't stand a band on stage singing the glories of the highest, I find it irrationally infuriating and insulting, though I'm not atheist.

Of course, I also tend to roll my eyes at bands touting the amazingness of satan too, I think that is equally as silly.