I did this interview with Jon in August. RC's zine went down before this could go up. Some folks in the ProgPower forum were asking me about it, so I figured I'd post it. I know there isn't a lot of interest in Iced Earth in this forum, but thought it was more appropriate to post it here, and then provide a link to it in the ProgPower forum.
Zod
Zod: Hows your back these days, how are you feeling?
Jon: You know, its better. I had a couple of operations between the last American tour and now. November of 2004 was the second of the two. Im doing much better now. Its still something that Im going to have to work on for a quite a while and continue with therapy. Ive got hopes that Im on the road to recovery. Things are better than theyve been in several months. So its cool. Im a little concerned about going on the road. Its not so much about the performing, as it is the traveling.
Zod: So its more about being on the bus, and not being able to sleep on a decent mattress?
Jon: Exactly. Bouncing around all night while youre traveling. Thats really always been a problem on my back. It wasnt bad at all before 96, when I injured my neck. I had surgery, finally in 2000, because it got so bad I was about to lose the use of my right arm. And actually, since I had the neck surgery, the necks been really good. I do have permanent nerve damage there, and thats an issue that Im going to deal with for the rest of my life. The lower back thing started in 2001, and it has developed into more of a problem. It irritates the fuck out of it when I cant get rest and Im bouncing around on the bus. Thats a little of a concern. On the first part of The Glorious Burden tour, that we did in America, I had a physical therapist with me for the first month, and it was great. He was working on me every day; during the day, before the show, after the show and I didnt have any problems. About two weeks after he left, shit really went south. So I think were going to have somebody like that on the tour all the time.
Zod: Its interesting about the tour bus thing, I never even considered that, when I read about your problems touring. I just always assumed it stemmed from going out on stage and playing your ass off.
Jon: Yeah. The performance is the least of it. Its everything about being on tour that makes it harder. Also, we dont tour under the best circumstances, because we dont have that kind of budget. Obviously, its better than being in a van or a camper, but we dont really have the budget to be in nice hotels every day. And that kind of shit, its really a pain in the ass.
Zod: Have you ever worried that it could get to the point, where you could find yourself in a Jon Olivia type situation with Savatage, where you create the music, and then send the band out to tour?
Jon: Well, Ill tell you. My management and I discussed that, because I really felt horrible, that because of my back problems that there was a wrench being thrown into the machine. There was a lot of good momentum going. I discussed it with Tim (Owens, Iced Earth vocalist), and discussed it with management, and Tim was like, No fucking way, Im not going to go out without you. And it was so bad, on those last two festival shows that we did in Europe, I could barely walk off the plane when we arrived in Germany. I was freaking out. I said, I think I need to get back home and get to a hospital, I can barely fucking walk.
Zod: Wow.
Jon: I could barely fucking walk. But I said, we cant afford to not make this gig. With all the financial problems that Richard (Christy, ex-Iced Earth drummer) caused, with him leaving in the middle of the tour we had to cancel Japan. And it was like, were losing money on this tour, big time, and we cant cancel these shows (the European festivals), but Im afraid Im not going to be able to play and Im going to need you guys to go on without me. And they were like, No way we cant.
Zod: So, Richard pulling out to do that whole Stern (Howard Stern radio show) thing, really screwed you guys? I didnt know it was a major impact. It was?
Jon: Well it was because of the timing. If he would have told me before the tour, we could have made arrangements. Thats water under the bridge. Richard did us a favor, because Bobby (Jarzombek, Iced Earth drummer) rules, and Richard found Bobby for us. But the problem is he really screwed us financially, because he told us in the middle of the tour. Really, like a week before the situation, that I got to leave the tour. Were getting ready to go to Japan, and we have a new drummer that weve never played with before. It was giving us two days of rehearsal. And Im like, No fucking way. Weve got to jam with this guy for four or five days to make sure were right. Im not going to go on stage and try to pull of Gettysburg with a guy weve never played with before.
Zod: (laughter) Yeah, 33 minutes worth of music with someone you just started jamming with.
Jon: Yeah. So, anyway, it cause a lot of problems. And by the time we got to Europe my back was fried. And the guy who was the physical therapist on the first part of the tour is a German guy. So he actually saved the day, because he closed down his practice and came to Frankfurt that evening and worked on me and got me through the shows. Well, him and a bottle of Jägermeister.
(laughter)
Jon: And Ill tell you what, by the time we got towards the end of Gettysburg, which was the last song at that first festival in Belgium, I thought I was going to hit the deck. I thought my legs were going to go out from under me. I was in FUCKING AGONY. It was one of the worst times Ive ever felt on stage probably the worst. So, he worked on me the next day in Germany, and it was a little better. It was still tough and it wasnt too long after that that I had the first procedure done when I got home..
Zod: Well, I hope things work out better for you when you go out in support of the next album. Lets talk about the new record. Are you satisfied with the way Touched by the Crimson King came out?
Jon: Yeah, overall. Every time we do a record, youre so consumed with it and the creative process, then the pre-production, then the recording, the mix, the mastering I like to get away from it for a while. But usually, within three to four weeks I listen to it again and theres always little things, that I feel, Eh, I could have done that better, or differently. But, overall? Yeah, Im satisfied, I think its a cool record.
Zod: Id say it has a fuller sounding production that the last one, and stylistically, it probably picks up where the debut left off. Would you agree?
Jon: Yeah. Overall, I think its a better mix. I think the songs are more dynamic. There may be a lot of acoustic parts, but the parts that are heavy, are REALLY fucking heavy. And whereas the first album had some really strong material, like Fiddler on the Green and Heaven Denies, I think this overall is a stronger record song-wise. But there are some really special moments on the first one. I dont know that theres a Fiddle on the Green on this album, but theres a lot of GOOD songs.
Zod: Thats interesting. Id probably sum it up the same way. Your two strongest songs are on the first album but this album is more consistent throughout.
Jon: Yeah. The one thing Id really like to do, and we were going to try to do it this time, and just couldnt get our schedules together, is to do more face to face writing with Hansi (Kursch). Cause theres like three songs that we wrote while we were actually sitting in front of each other, and the rest of it was me sending musical arrangements to him, him working on vocal melodies, and than wed bang around lyrical ideas and work on those together. Theres a certain kind of chemistry that flows when youre
Zod: (interrupting) in the room?
Jon: Yeah, when youre together. And it was very cool to be able to do some of that on this record, but Id really like to do more of that. I hope the next time we do an album we can spend a few months together just banging stuff out.
Zod: I was looking at the liner notes on the first album, and I was looking to see who wrote the lyrics. I just assumed you wrote all the music and he wrote the better part of the lyrics. But I guess you guys split the lyrics, to a certain extant?
Jon: Yeah. Hansi usually comes up with the theme of the song.
Zod: OK.
Jon: Not every time, but most of the time. And hell sketch out a draft of lyrical ideas and we then well go through it together. And I will help with grammar, because English is his second language. But we just do what we got to do to get it done.
Zod: Its interesting that you mention the grammar thing. Ive always been a big fan of good lyrics. Ive always found it interesting that European and Nordic bands dont bring someone in to tighten up the lyrics. Obviously theyre writing in English, because they want to reach that market, but yet they write in what is their second or third language.
Jon: Yeah. I would like to see more of them do that, because many times they end up sounding really corny.
Zod: Exactly. It hurts the song.
Jon: Yeah, it can. No doubt.
Zod: Ive been to a number of the ProgPower festivals (http://www.progpowerusa.com/), and I was hoping that Demons and Wizards would headline it this year. Was that ever broached? Did you ever talk to Glenn (Harveston, ProgPower promoter) about that?
Jon: I think theres been some discussion about that in the past. Demons and Wizards biggest problem is Iced Earths and Blind Guardians schedules. And I dont think this year is a reality or not. The Guardians are going to be getting into pre-production for their next album pretty shortly. Besides that, Im going to be getting into writing mode for Iced Earth. Weve been offered the biggest festivals in Europe to headline, a couple of months back, because the new the Demons album was coming, and we turned that down. Mainly, because I just had a daughter
Zod: (interrupting) Congratulations.
Jon: Thank you. And I dont really want to leave not for the first six months or so, and Hansi is going into pre-production. Its not like we wont play. We did tour on the first one, and we may still do something on this, but I think it may be later than sooner. And it would probably be next year rather than this year, just because of the way schedules are going.
Zod: Any shot, that if it does happen, that you guys would hit North America this time around?
Jon: Thats actually what we would prefer to do. Because I think it would a very cool thing to do it. Theres probably going to be a live record. I would like to record that here in New York. Just because it would be the thing you wouldnt expect us to do. Because both bands are much bigger in Europe, and Demons and Wizards is very successful there. It would make more sense to do it in Spain or Greece. But I think it would be killer here. And it would be a little bit of a lesson to the world that America has got some shit going on. We have very spirited audiences that sing along and get crazy, and well capture that on tape. New York is one of my favorite places to play in the world and the crowds ROCK here.
Zod: Yeah, I saw you guys at The World (in NYC) on the Horror Show tour.
Jon: Actually, the Horror Show performance (in NYC), when we opened with the Star Spangled Banner, it wasnt that long after 9/11. It was one of the most powerful experiences ever on stage (for me). I had tears in my eyes by the time we got to the end of Star Spangled Banner because it was just a very emotional thing, doing it here. Man it was powerful.
Zod: I was at that show, that was a fantastic show. I remember reading once, I believe it was on your web site, where you said you had about 20 songs written and you werent quite sure which were going to be Iced Earth songs and which were going to be Demons and Wizards songs. How do you make that call in the end?
Jon: Well, usually, it has to do with the vocal melodies. When its an Iced Earth song, I hear the vocal melody. If I dont hear the vocal melody, thats the stuff I co-write with other people. Im not sure in what context I made that statement. I have to go back and look, and really think about what I had in the can at the time. But there are definite pieces of music, say Gettysburg or Declaration Day, where I start off and say, OK. Im going to write this song, and this is going to be the title and this is the theme of it and I start working on it, and a lot of times it hits me pretty fast and furious. And its like, I know what the vocals have to do there. I know this is the melody and this is the arrangement and this is the style that I need it to be sung in. And thats the stuff that I write by myself. If I write a piece of music, and its a cool piece of music, but I dont necessarily hear what the vocals are doing, than thats the stuff I co-write with people. And thats really the only difference between Demons and Wizards and Iced Earth. Musically I dont approach it any different, but in Demons I have a writing partner. And when you put those two things together it creates something new.
Jon: Blind Guardian is almost always working in a major key, whereas I write almost all the time in a harmonic minor key. That forces Hansi to create a vocal melody that sounds pretty different from anything that youre used to hearing him sing. And you dont have as many options when youre in a harmonic minor key, as you do when youre in a major key. So, its a little bit harder to do and its darker. Plus, the style that he writes a vocal melody in, is very different from what I would. Thats what really makes it different and what makes it create the new monster. But thats the stuff that I co-write. Thats pretty much with anybody. It will be that way with Tim in the future. Because if I hear it, and its that overwhelming, and Im pretty convinced of the theme, than I know its going to be right.
Zod: How do you approach working with somebody new? Iced Earth has always been your musical vision. Does it make you at all uncomfortable, to bring someone new in? Someone who will infuse their ideas into something thats not always been only yours, but mostly yours?
Jon: No. Because Im not going to use anybodys ideas if they dont work within the vision. Thats a real quick way to ruin everything youve built. Just because somebodys a musician, doesnt mean that theyre a songwriter. Ive dealt with dozens and dozens of guys over the years who were great performers, but they cant write themselves out of a wet paper bag. Its a whole different thing. And if you let people contribute, just to be nice to them, you will ruin your band, and you will ruin everything youve stood for. Thats a real quick way to put out some generic shit, and thats something that I will not let happen. But if somebody does have a cool idea, and it fits within the scope of everything, they get the credit, they get the publishing. Thats cool.
Zod: Do you plan on approaching the way you write any differently, or the way you design vocal melodies any differently, with Tim as opposed to Matt?
Jon: No.
Zod: No?
Jon: Nope. Im looking forward to seeing what kind of stuff Tim writes. He doesnt have a history as a songwriter. Hes never really been given that opportunity and Im giving him an opportunity. And it will be interesting to see what he comes up with. He knows Im not going to use it if it doesnt work, just to be nice to him. But I wont approach anything as far as melodies (differently), because Im a songwriter. The songs are what they are. I dont write for a singer, I write for me, I write for the song. The guys that are performing the reason theyre performing is because I hired them, because I have faith that they can do it. Its all got to be honest and from the heart. If you try to do something thats not genuine, the people are going to pick up on it right away. Whether they even realize why they dont like it or not, it doesnt really matter. But I know why they wouldnt. If its from the heart, everyone is going to get it.
Zod: Singers can often be the face of the band. Their voice can be a bands most defining characteristic to the listening audience. Before the release of The Glorious Burden were you at all concerned about how Iced Earth fans might perceive the new release, after Matt left?
Jon: No.
Zod: No?
Jon: Not really. Because Ive gone through that numerous times in the past. And Ive heard the same thing about every guy that left, How can you develop a and its like, Yeah, whatever. For me, I knew Tim and know I that Tim has got exactly what I hear. His voice is amazing, and its powerful and hes killer to work with. The thing is, people fall in love with an illusion. I mean, they dont have any fucking clue what Matt Barlow is really like. They have no idea. All they know is what they hear in the studio, which has a hell of a lot to do with what Jim Morrison and I make happen. The way that the illusion is delivered has a lot to do with the production, and the songs, most importantly. Fans create an illusion in their mind. And I cant help that. I live in the reality of Iced Earth. I know Im the driving force of the band, the guy whose pushing stuff and making things happen, and I dont really care if people realize that or not. It doesnt matter. I know its not going to change a whole hell of a lot. Yeah, the face will change, the voice will change, but theres not a whole lot thats really going to change. And yeah, the superficial fans may not get it. But thats OK.
Jon: Theres going to be people out there who will never be able to accept Tim, well then, listen to the old records, well make new fans. Theres plenty who will get it, because its still sincere and its still good.
Jon: It would have been a huge difference if Matt was a writer. Say we would have been a songwriting team, like Hansi and I am. Theres no Demons and Wizards without Hansi. No way. Because he is as much a part of that as I am. Its just that people dont know who Matt is. The point Im trying to make, is people fall in love with a creation that they create.
Zod: I understand 100%. To a certain extant, I fall in that camp. The Matt Barlow voice that I hear on CD is probably my most favorite metal voice of all time. And I fully expected not to like The Glorious Burden to be completely honest with you, and it turned out to be my favorite album of the year. I was just blown away.
Jon: Wow. Cool. If I would have put it out with Matt, it was sub-standard. He did a piss-poor job and thats just a fact, and I had to stop the sessions. It was just that bad. We were in the middle of mixing the record and Im looking at Jim like, I cant release this album. There was not enough electronic surgery that we could do to make it sound like it was the real deal. Matt lost heart. Hes done. Hes moving on and doing things in his life. Matt is my brother-in-law. I wish him all the best in the world. I want him to have a good, happy life, and he was not (happy).
Jon: The music business is fucking shallow. I think he looked at his life, at that point and said, This really isnt fulfilling any more. And I understand that, cause I can see it. If I didnt have the artistic part of it I wouldnt do this shit. Because its an illusion. Its a big fucking lie. Thats what it is. The only thing real about it are the songs. And if youre not driving the songs, youre living the lie.
Zod: Right.
Jon: Its really a pretty vicious thing when you get down to it. I would not be fulfilled if I wasnt a songwriter. I would have nothing to do with this shit. Because I think its shallow, its lame. When I look at the way people are marketed to the masses, and these illusions are created, which are based in lies, and everything is about hype, and its all a bunch of shit. And if youre not doing true music, then I wouldnt do it and I wouldnt have anything to do with it.
Zod: I can appreciate that. Hmmm the next Iced Earth album? Any idea what timeframe were looking at? Are we looking at spring next year?
Jon: It kind of depends. Were waiting on decisions from SPV. Its not that theyre going to decide which way the record goes, thematically, its just that I need to have an answer about a contractual thing before I go forward with the theme that I want to go forward with. My goal is to do the Something Wicked story.
Zod: That was my next question.
Jon: Yeah. The real way. Basically, they need to commit to the option that they have, because its going to be a two part record, I cant do it in one part.
Zod: Is that right?
Jon: Yeah. It will be the kind of thing where we put out part one, and well still be in the studio working on part two. And then part two would come out, six months later, and thats when the tour would start. So its going to be, by far, the most ambitious thing Ive ever written, recorded. Its going to be bizarre, heavy, dark, melodic all that. But, very, very ambitious. I hope that the right decision is made, so that we can finally deliver this thing.
Zod: Thats sounds good. Im looking forward to hearing it.
Jon: Its going to take a while to write it. Im not going to bullshit you. Because I want to start writing in the next two months or so, if the decision is made soon. Every time we do a record, the first stage of it starts to happen in my mind. Before I even pick up a guitar and start making it a reality, I think constantly about it, pretty much every minute of every day, Im building this shit in my mind. That goes on for several weeks and then I actually grab the guitar and I sit down and I start playing, and I record and I build things and make it happen that way. But this is so complex, and its got to have the cliff-hangers and the whole thing, and its a bizarre story thats going to totally fucking blow peoples minds. And its got to be done the right way. Its going to have world instruments, and all different kinds of tribal drumming... theres going to be sitars, and a full orchestra and just stuff that people have never heard from us before.
Zod: Wow.
Jon: But it will still be very much Iced Earth. I hope that it will be the ultimate concept album ever. Thats my goal.
Zod: Just curious, what do you think is the ultimate concept album ever?
Jon: What do I think it is?
Zod: Yeah. If you had to pick one as the gold standard.
Jon: Hmm I would say The Wall.
Zod: The Wall?
Jon: Yeah.
Zod: Id probably say, Mindcrime 1A, but The Wall would be 1B.
Jon: Yeah, Mindcrime is killer too. Definitely a great, great album. I just think The Wall is its obviously freakier. Mindcrime is a Metal concept album. The Wall is just heavy, its a trip. Its just one of those things. Theres some really weird musical stuff on it, but I just think its amazing. Ours is going to be nothing like The Wall.
(laughter)
Zod: OK. Let me see if I can sneak in one more question before our time runs out here. I want to get your take on MP3s. Given that you guys dont get a lot of exposure in the mainstream media, do you think that theyre a necessary evil or just plain old evil?
Jon: I dont have an MP3 player and Im not involved in all that. This whole digital age has hurt the music business, big time. And its not just hurting the labels, its hurting the artists too. I dont think people really understand that. I dont think theres anything we can do about it. And its not just fucking up the music business, its also with films. Its so much easier to steal stuff, and make it great quality now, and its really created an issue.
Jon: In some ways I think the big majors have created this monster, because they fucked people for so long by putting out products that maybe had one or two good tracks, and then charged an outrageous price when it was so cheap to manufacture. So I think this is biting them in the ass, because I think people are like, You know what, if I dont have to spend $16 on the record and theres two songs on it that are good and the rest of its shit, than Im just going to take it for free.
Jon: But I think that Iced Earth and Blind Guardian, guys like that are pretty fortunate, because with our fans, theres this loyalty there, and I dont think its hurt us like its hurt a lot of other bands. It may knock sales back 10% 15%, or something like that . which is a lot, but not as much as some people are effected. But then again, we have the kind of fan base that knows that were going to put out quality stuff. Theyre going to want the album, the art, the lyrics they want to support the band. Theres a much stronger sense of loyalty there then there is with the big mainstream stuff. So I think were pretty luck in that.
Zod: Im kind of glad to hear you say that. Ive always felt that theres a sense of loyalty within this community, that the people who listen to the music get it, that the artists are trying to make a living, theyre not driving Rolls Royces. You need to buy the CDs, you need buy the t-shirts, you need to go see them live, and I always wondered if that feeling trickled up, if you will, to the artists.
Jon: Oh definitely.
Zod: Thats good to hear.
Jon: Were in tune with whats going on, from talking to people. Its very obvious to me and Hansi, the difference between our fan base and some mainstream commercial act. OK, theyre selling millions of records TODAY. Who knows what theyre going to be doing tomorrow. They dont have a sense of loyalty, and those are the kind of guys that nobody gives a shit if their burning their CDs and ripping them off. Its a whole different animal.
Zod: I agree. Hey, I really appreciate your time, and it seems to be the tradition to give the interviewee a shot to say anything theyd like to those who may be reading this.
Jon: Im appreciative to all the fans, and their loyalty through the years. We look forward to seeing the fans, hopefully soon, on tour. And thats about it.
Zod
Zod: Hows your back these days, how are you feeling?
Jon: You know, its better. I had a couple of operations between the last American tour and now. November of 2004 was the second of the two. Im doing much better now. Its still something that Im going to have to work on for a quite a while and continue with therapy. Ive got hopes that Im on the road to recovery. Things are better than theyve been in several months. So its cool. Im a little concerned about going on the road. Its not so much about the performing, as it is the traveling.
Zod: So its more about being on the bus, and not being able to sleep on a decent mattress?
Jon: Exactly. Bouncing around all night while youre traveling. Thats really always been a problem on my back. It wasnt bad at all before 96, when I injured my neck. I had surgery, finally in 2000, because it got so bad I was about to lose the use of my right arm. And actually, since I had the neck surgery, the necks been really good. I do have permanent nerve damage there, and thats an issue that Im going to deal with for the rest of my life. The lower back thing started in 2001, and it has developed into more of a problem. It irritates the fuck out of it when I cant get rest and Im bouncing around on the bus. Thats a little of a concern. On the first part of The Glorious Burden tour, that we did in America, I had a physical therapist with me for the first month, and it was great. He was working on me every day; during the day, before the show, after the show and I didnt have any problems. About two weeks after he left, shit really went south. So I think were going to have somebody like that on the tour all the time.
Zod: Its interesting about the tour bus thing, I never even considered that, when I read about your problems touring. I just always assumed it stemmed from going out on stage and playing your ass off.
Jon: Yeah. The performance is the least of it. Its everything about being on tour that makes it harder. Also, we dont tour under the best circumstances, because we dont have that kind of budget. Obviously, its better than being in a van or a camper, but we dont really have the budget to be in nice hotels every day. And that kind of shit, its really a pain in the ass.
Zod: Have you ever worried that it could get to the point, where you could find yourself in a Jon Olivia type situation with Savatage, where you create the music, and then send the band out to tour?
Jon: Well, Ill tell you. My management and I discussed that, because I really felt horrible, that because of my back problems that there was a wrench being thrown into the machine. There was a lot of good momentum going. I discussed it with Tim (Owens, Iced Earth vocalist), and discussed it with management, and Tim was like, No fucking way, Im not going to go out without you. And it was so bad, on those last two festival shows that we did in Europe, I could barely walk off the plane when we arrived in Germany. I was freaking out. I said, I think I need to get back home and get to a hospital, I can barely fucking walk.
Zod: Wow.
Jon: I could barely fucking walk. But I said, we cant afford to not make this gig. With all the financial problems that Richard (Christy, ex-Iced Earth drummer) caused, with him leaving in the middle of the tour we had to cancel Japan. And it was like, were losing money on this tour, big time, and we cant cancel these shows (the European festivals), but Im afraid Im not going to be able to play and Im going to need you guys to go on without me. And they were like, No way we cant.
Zod: So, Richard pulling out to do that whole Stern (Howard Stern radio show) thing, really screwed you guys? I didnt know it was a major impact. It was?
Jon: Well it was because of the timing. If he would have told me before the tour, we could have made arrangements. Thats water under the bridge. Richard did us a favor, because Bobby (Jarzombek, Iced Earth drummer) rules, and Richard found Bobby for us. But the problem is he really screwed us financially, because he told us in the middle of the tour. Really, like a week before the situation, that I got to leave the tour. Were getting ready to go to Japan, and we have a new drummer that weve never played with before. It was giving us two days of rehearsal. And Im like, No fucking way. Weve got to jam with this guy for four or five days to make sure were right. Im not going to go on stage and try to pull of Gettysburg with a guy weve never played with before.
Zod: (laughter) Yeah, 33 minutes worth of music with someone you just started jamming with.
Jon: Yeah. So, anyway, it cause a lot of problems. And by the time we got to Europe my back was fried. And the guy who was the physical therapist on the first part of the tour is a German guy. So he actually saved the day, because he closed down his practice and came to Frankfurt that evening and worked on me and got me through the shows. Well, him and a bottle of Jägermeister.
(laughter)
Jon: And Ill tell you what, by the time we got towards the end of Gettysburg, which was the last song at that first festival in Belgium, I thought I was going to hit the deck. I thought my legs were going to go out from under me. I was in FUCKING AGONY. It was one of the worst times Ive ever felt on stage probably the worst. So, he worked on me the next day in Germany, and it was a little better. It was still tough and it wasnt too long after that that I had the first procedure done when I got home..
Zod: Well, I hope things work out better for you when you go out in support of the next album. Lets talk about the new record. Are you satisfied with the way Touched by the Crimson King came out?
Jon: Yeah, overall. Every time we do a record, youre so consumed with it and the creative process, then the pre-production, then the recording, the mix, the mastering I like to get away from it for a while. But usually, within three to four weeks I listen to it again and theres always little things, that I feel, Eh, I could have done that better, or differently. But, overall? Yeah, Im satisfied, I think its a cool record.
Zod: Id say it has a fuller sounding production that the last one, and stylistically, it probably picks up where the debut left off. Would you agree?
Jon: Yeah. Overall, I think its a better mix. I think the songs are more dynamic. There may be a lot of acoustic parts, but the parts that are heavy, are REALLY fucking heavy. And whereas the first album had some really strong material, like Fiddler on the Green and Heaven Denies, I think this overall is a stronger record song-wise. But there are some really special moments on the first one. I dont know that theres a Fiddle on the Green on this album, but theres a lot of GOOD songs.
Zod: Thats interesting. Id probably sum it up the same way. Your two strongest songs are on the first album but this album is more consistent throughout.
Jon: Yeah. The one thing Id really like to do, and we were going to try to do it this time, and just couldnt get our schedules together, is to do more face to face writing with Hansi (Kursch). Cause theres like three songs that we wrote while we were actually sitting in front of each other, and the rest of it was me sending musical arrangements to him, him working on vocal melodies, and than wed bang around lyrical ideas and work on those together. Theres a certain kind of chemistry that flows when youre
Zod: (interrupting) in the room?
Jon: Yeah, when youre together. And it was very cool to be able to do some of that on this record, but Id really like to do more of that. I hope the next time we do an album we can spend a few months together just banging stuff out.
Zod: I was looking at the liner notes on the first album, and I was looking to see who wrote the lyrics. I just assumed you wrote all the music and he wrote the better part of the lyrics. But I guess you guys split the lyrics, to a certain extant?
Jon: Yeah. Hansi usually comes up with the theme of the song.
Zod: OK.
Jon: Not every time, but most of the time. And hell sketch out a draft of lyrical ideas and we then well go through it together. And I will help with grammar, because English is his second language. But we just do what we got to do to get it done.
Zod: Its interesting that you mention the grammar thing. Ive always been a big fan of good lyrics. Ive always found it interesting that European and Nordic bands dont bring someone in to tighten up the lyrics. Obviously theyre writing in English, because they want to reach that market, but yet they write in what is their second or third language.
Jon: Yeah. I would like to see more of them do that, because many times they end up sounding really corny.
Zod: Exactly. It hurts the song.
Jon: Yeah, it can. No doubt.
Zod: Ive been to a number of the ProgPower festivals (http://www.progpowerusa.com/), and I was hoping that Demons and Wizards would headline it this year. Was that ever broached? Did you ever talk to Glenn (Harveston, ProgPower promoter) about that?
Jon: I think theres been some discussion about that in the past. Demons and Wizards biggest problem is Iced Earths and Blind Guardians schedules. And I dont think this year is a reality or not. The Guardians are going to be getting into pre-production for their next album pretty shortly. Besides that, Im going to be getting into writing mode for Iced Earth. Weve been offered the biggest festivals in Europe to headline, a couple of months back, because the new the Demons album was coming, and we turned that down. Mainly, because I just had a daughter
Zod: (interrupting) Congratulations.
Jon: Thank you. And I dont really want to leave not for the first six months or so, and Hansi is going into pre-production. Its not like we wont play. We did tour on the first one, and we may still do something on this, but I think it may be later than sooner. And it would probably be next year rather than this year, just because of the way schedules are going.
Zod: Any shot, that if it does happen, that you guys would hit North America this time around?
Jon: Thats actually what we would prefer to do. Because I think it would a very cool thing to do it. Theres probably going to be a live record. I would like to record that here in New York. Just because it would be the thing you wouldnt expect us to do. Because both bands are much bigger in Europe, and Demons and Wizards is very successful there. It would make more sense to do it in Spain or Greece. But I think it would be killer here. And it would be a little bit of a lesson to the world that America has got some shit going on. We have very spirited audiences that sing along and get crazy, and well capture that on tape. New York is one of my favorite places to play in the world and the crowds ROCK here.
Zod: Yeah, I saw you guys at The World (in NYC) on the Horror Show tour.
Jon: Actually, the Horror Show performance (in NYC), when we opened with the Star Spangled Banner, it wasnt that long after 9/11. It was one of the most powerful experiences ever on stage (for me). I had tears in my eyes by the time we got to the end of Star Spangled Banner because it was just a very emotional thing, doing it here. Man it was powerful.
Zod: I was at that show, that was a fantastic show. I remember reading once, I believe it was on your web site, where you said you had about 20 songs written and you werent quite sure which were going to be Iced Earth songs and which were going to be Demons and Wizards songs. How do you make that call in the end?
Jon: Well, usually, it has to do with the vocal melodies. When its an Iced Earth song, I hear the vocal melody. If I dont hear the vocal melody, thats the stuff I co-write with other people. Im not sure in what context I made that statement. I have to go back and look, and really think about what I had in the can at the time. But there are definite pieces of music, say Gettysburg or Declaration Day, where I start off and say, OK. Im going to write this song, and this is going to be the title and this is the theme of it and I start working on it, and a lot of times it hits me pretty fast and furious. And its like, I know what the vocals have to do there. I know this is the melody and this is the arrangement and this is the style that I need it to be sung in. And thats the stuff that I write by myself. If I write a piece of music, and its a cool piece of music, but I dont necessarily hear what the vocals are doing, than thats the stuff I co-write with people. And thats really the only difference between Demons and Wizards and Iced Earth. Musically I dont approach it any different, but in Demons I have a writing partner. And when you put those two things together it creates something new.
Jon: Blind Guardian is almost always working in a major key, whereas I write almost all the time in a harmonic minor key. That forces Hansi to create a vocal melody that sounds pretty different from anything that youre used to hearing him sing. And you dont have as many options when youre in a harmonic minor key, as you do when youre in a major key. So, its a little bit harder to do and its darker. Plus, the style that he writes a vocal melody in, is very different from what I would. Thats what really makes it different and what makes it create the new monster. But thats the stuff that I co-write. Thats pretty much with anybody. It will be that way with Tim in the future. Because if I hear it, and its that overwhelming, and Im pretty convinced of the theme, than I know its going to be right.
Zod: How do you approach working with somebody new? Iced Earth has always been your musical vision. Does it make you at all uncomfortable, to bring someone new in? Someone who will infuse their ideas into something thats not always been only yours, but mostly yours?
Jon: No. Because Im not going to use anybodys ideas if they dont work within the vision. Thats a real quick way to ruin everything youve built. Just because somebodys a musician, doesnt mean that theyre a songwriter. Ive dealt with dozens and dozens of guys over the years who were great performers, but they cant write themselves out of a wet paper bag. Its a whole different thing. And if you let people contribute, just to be nice to them, you will ruin your band, and you will ruin everything youve stood for. Thats a real quick way to put out some generic shit, and thats something that I will not let happen. But if somebody does have a cool idea, and it fits within the scope of everything, they get the credit, they get the publishing. Thats cool.
Zod: Do you plan on approaching the way you write any differently, or the way you design vocal melodies any differently, with Tim as opposed to Matt?
Jon: No.
Zod: No?
Jon: Nope. Im looking forward to seeing what kind of stuff Tim writes. He doesnt have a history as a songwriter. Hes never really been given that opportunity and Im giving him an opportunity. And it will be interesting to see what he comes up with. He knows Im not going to use it if it doesnt work, just to be nice to him. But I wont approach anything as far as melodies (differently), because Im a songwriter. The songs are what they are. I dont write for a singer, I write for me, I write for the song. The guys that are performing the reason theyre performing is because I hired them, because I have faith that they can do it. Its all got to be honest and from the heart. If you try to do something thats not genuine, the people are going to pick up on it right away. Whether they even realize why they dont like it or not, it doesnt really matter. But I know why they wouldnt. If its from the heart, everyone is going to get it.
Zod: Singers can often be the face of the band. Their voice can be a bands most defining characteristic to the listening audience. Before the release of The Glorious Burden were you at all concerned about how Iced Earth fans might perceive the new release, after Matt left?
Jon: No.
Zod: No?
Jon: Not really. Because Ive gone through that numerous times in the past. And Ive heard the same thing about every guy that left, How can you develop a and its like, Yeah, whatever. For me, I knew Tim and know I that Tim has got exactly what I hear. His voice is amazing, and its powerful and hes killer to work with. The thing is, people fall in love with an illusion. I mean, they dont have any fucking clue what Matt Barlow is really like. They have no idea. All they know is what they hear in the studio, which has a hell of a lot to do with what Jim Morrison and I make happen. The way that the illusion is delivered has a lot to do with the production, and the songs, most importantly. Fans create an illusion in their mind. And I cant help that. I live in the reality of Iced Earth. I know Im the driving force of the band, the guy whose pushing stuff and making things happen, and I dont really care if people realize that or not. It doesnt matter. I know its not going to change a whole hell of a lot. Yeah, the face will change, the voice will change, but theres not a whole lot thats really going to change. And yeah, the superficial fans may not get it. But thats OK.
Jon: Theres going to be people out there who will never be able to accept Tim, well then, listen to the old records, well make new fans. Theres plenty who will get it, because its still sincere and its still good.
Jon: It would have been a huge difference if Matt was a writer. Say we would have been a songwriting team, like Hansi and I am. Theres no Demons and Wizards without Hansi. No way. Because he is as much a part of that as I am. Its just that people dont know who Matt is. The point Im trying to make, is people fall in love with a creation that they create.
Zod: I understand 100%. To a certain extant, I fall in that camp. The Matt Barlow voice that I hear on CD is probably my most favorite metal voice of all time. And I fully expected not to like The Glorious Burden to be completely honest with you, and it turned out to be my favorite album of the year. I was just blown away.
Jon: Wow. Cool. If I would have put it out with Matt, it was sub-standard. He did a piss-poor job and thats just a fact, and I had to stop the sessions. It was just that bad. We were in the middle of mixing the record and Im looking at Jim like, I cant release this album. There was not enough electronic surgery that we could do to make it sound like it was the real deal. Matt lost heart. Hes done. Hes moving on and doing things in his life. Matt is my brother-in-law. I wish him all the best in the world. I want him to have a good, happy life, and he was not (happy).
Jon: The music business is fucking shallow. I think he looked at his life, at that point and said, This really isnt fulfilling any more. And I understand that, cause I can see it. If I didnt have the artistic part of it I wouldnt do this shit. Because its an illusion. Its a big fucking lie. Thats what it is. The only thing real about it are the songs. And if youre not driving the songs, youre living the lie.
Zod: Right.
Jon: Its really a pretty vicious thing when you get down to it. I would not be fulfilled if I wasnt a songwriter. I would have nothing to do with this shit. Because I think its shallow, its lame. When I look at the way people are marketed to the masses, and these illusions are created, which are based in lies, and everything is about hype, and its all a bunch of shit. And if youre not doing true music, then I wouldnt do it and I wouldnt have anything to do with it.
Zod: I can appreciate that. Hmmm the next Iced Earth album? Any idea what timeframe were looking at? Are we looking at spring next year?
Jon: It kind of depends. Were waiting on decisions from SPV. Its not that theyre going to decide which way the record goes, thematically, its just that I need to have an answer about a contractual thing before I go forward with the theme that I want to go forward with. My goal is to do the Something Wicked story.
Zod: That was my next question.
Jon: Yeah. The real way. Basically, they need to commit to the option that they have, because its going to be a two part record, I cant do it in one part.
Zod: Is that right?
Jon: Yeah. It will be the kind of thing where we put out part one, and well still be in the studio working on part two. And then part two would come out, six months later, and thats when the tour would start. So its going to be, by far, the most ambitious thing Ive ever written, recorded. Its going to be bizarre, heavy, dark, melodic all that. But, very, very ambitious. I hope that the right decision is made, so that we can finally deliver this thing.
Zod: Thats sounds good. Im looking forward to hearing it.
Jon: Its going to take a while to write it. Im not going to bullshit you. Because I want to start writing in the next two months or so, if the decision is made soon. Every time we do a record, the first stage of it starts to happen in my mind. Before I even pick up a guitar and start making it a reality, I think constantly about it, pretty much every minute of every day, Im building this shit in my mind. That goes on for several weeks and then I actually grab the guitar and I sit down and I start playing, and I record and I build things and make it happen that way. But this is so complex, and its got to have the cliff-hangers and the whole thing, and its a bizarre story thats going to totally fucking blow peoples minds. And its got to be done the right way. Its going to have world instruments, and all different kinds of tribal drumming... theres going to be sitars, and a full orchestra and just stuff that people have never heard from us before.
Zod: Wow.
Jon: But it will still be very much Iced Earth. I hope that it will be the ultimate concept album ever. Thats my goal.
Zod: Just curious, what do you think is the ultimate concept album ever?
Jon: What do I think it is?
Zod: Yeah. If you had to pick one as the gold standard.
Jon: Hmm I would say The Wall.
Zod: The Wall?
Jon: Yeah.
Zod: Id probably say, Mindcrime 1A, but The Wall would be 1B.
Jon: Yeah, Mindcrime is killer too. Definitely a great, great album. I just think The Wall is its obviously freakier. Mindcrime is a Metal concept album. The Wall is just heavy, its a trip. Its just one of those things. Theres some really weird musical stuff on it, but I just think its amazing. Ours is going to be nothing like The Wall.
(laughter)
Zod: OK. Let me see if I can sneak in one more question before our time runs out here. I want to get your take on MP3s. Given that you guys dont get a lot of exposure in the mainstream media, do you think that theyre a necessary evil or just plain old evil?
Jon: I dont have an MP3 player and Im not involved in all that. This whole digital age has hurt the music business, big time. And its not just hurting the labels, its hurting the artists too. I dont think people really understand that. I dont think theres anything we can do about it. And its not just fucking up the music business, its also with films. Its so much easier to steal stuff, and make it great quality now, and its really created an issue.
Jon: In some ways I think the big majors have created this monster, because they fucked people for so long by putting out products that maybe had one or two good tracks, and then charged an outrageous price when it was so cheap to manufacture. So I think this is biting them in the ass, because I think people are like, You know what, if I dont have to spend $16 on the record and theres two songs on it that are good and the rest of its shit, than Im just going to take it for free.
Jon: But I think that Iced Earth and Blind Guardian, guys like that are pretty fortunate, because with our fans, theres this loyalty there, and I dont think its hurt us like its hurt a lot of other bands. It may knock sales back 10% 15%, or something like that . which is a lot, but not as much as some people are effected. But then again, we have the kind of fan base that knows that were going to put out quality stuff. Theyre going to want the album, the art, the lyrics they want to support the band. Theres a much stronger sense of loyalty there then there is with the big mainstream stuff. So I think were pretty luck in that.
Zod: Im kind of glad to hear you say that. Ive always felt that theres a sense of loyalty within this community, that the people who listen to the music get it, that the artists are trying to make a living, theyre not driving Rolls Royces. You need to buy the CDs, you need buy the t-shirts, you need to go see them live, and I always wondered if that feeling trickled up, if you will, to the artists.
Jon: Oh definitely.
Zod: Thats good to hear.
Jon: Were in tune with whats going on, from talking to people. Its very obvious to me and Hansi, the difference between our fan base and some mainstream commercial act. OK, theyre selling millions of records TODAY. Who knows what theyre going to be doing tomorrow. They dont have a sense of loyalty, and those are the kind of guys that nobody gives a shit if their burning their CDs and ripping them off. Its a whole different animal.
Zod: I agree. Hey, I really appreciate your time, and it seems to be the tradition to give the interviewee a shot to say anything theyd like to those who may be reading this.
Jon: Im appreciative to all the fans, and their loyalty through the years. We look forward to seeing the fans, hopefully soon, on tour. And thats about it.
