Since this guy has decided to keep on his path to imminent failure and this has driven me up the fucking Great Wall of China I wanted to share this and hopefully get some input from y'all.
From me, today.. 11-19-08 Notice this all started in fuckin July!
OK, I'm really trying to be rational and objective here. You bought a tube amp that is over 10 years old thru a classified ad. It was stated clearly that it was as-is not just because I didn't give a fuck but because I knew that I didn't/don't have the financial means to deal with any eventualities. That's why I insisted it be insured for more than you even payed for it. Tube amps, more to the point tubes, are fragile. Something you buy used is not warrantied, guaranteed or otherwise covered by any quality control. I totally didn't want things to turn out as they did. If I had known there were any issues with the amp I would have stated that and adjusted the price accordingly.
The reasons I'm not willing to refund you anything are as follows ( direct quotes from your emails are in red / direct quotes from me are in blue ):
1. I don't have the money to give you.
2. I have no way of knowing that the amp is really damaged.
3. Your responses to my trouble-shooting steps were vague or non-existent.
4. The amp has worked flawlessly for me for over 10 years.
5. You delayed filing an insurance claim several days 'Hi, I'm still messing around and seeing what the problem is, give me a day or 2 before we do any claims.'
6. What kind of 'messing around' did you do and why would that take several days? Sounds to me like you just didn't like it and you wanted time to tweak before you tried to return it.
7. You seem to lack the understanding of 'as-is' or 'used gear'.
8. You chose to ignore my advice on the following 'I'd suggest using a shipping address that you'll be able to sign for it when it arrives. If Joe-the-shipping-clerk signs for it with his daily delivery you might not get to inspect it first.'
9. This is retarded... stereo into one cab? ' I cant hook up my rig stereo as I dont really own 2 cabs, thou the amp still sounds good.' and ' I planned to use a single 4x12 for a stereo setup, point of the whole rack.'
10. You acknowledge the fact that this problem may have been pre-existing and are assuming that I'd offer a warranty repair or something? 'Hi, I'm still not sure what to do at this point, have you personally ever tried to use both of the 4omh? maybe it never worked right to begin with. I have tried every possible combo and the problem is still there.'
11. You paid half of new retail. You acknowledge the possibility that it was mis-handled. 'I just dont want to be paying full price for something defectiive, not that I'm saying it was your fault, maybe it was during shipment.'
12. You completely ignored my statement as follows. "I wont accept any returns/refunds, etc once the amp has been shipped. The amp is sold as-is and if it arrives damaged it'll be up to you to file that claim."
13. 'I'm not trying to jack anyone, so far I'm with the amp thats not 100% working, I cant just sit and wait for things to happen.' And what did you expect me to do ship you another 2:Ninety to use while that one is being fixed? Would you do that for anyone who bought a used tube amp from you via a classified ad?
14. I don't feel I packed the amp poorly. You said so yourself, twice. 'Hi, got the mesa, packing was great' and 'I just found out from talking to the store/ups and after inspecting the boxes their decision was that it was not packed well. I have to say you packed it similar to what I would do'
15. You expect me to take responsibility for not knowing things I never have/could use not working and to test the amp in EVERY possible way, like a store or manufacturer would? 'If UPS did shake or drop the box we both do not know, or if you never knew the amps dual 4 ohms were not working right. A tech did inspect this for me and I gave the bill estimate to UPS as well. My best guess is that you did not know the amps 4 ohms were messed up, I can understand that if your rig never had it set like that. However I intended to use it like that and in the end the unit was not 100% working. It would of been wise to test as much of the unit before sending.'
16. This is called depreciation. It happens to almost ALL things. To illustrate, I paid about $1200 for that amp over ten years ago, NEW. The fact that your rig changes THAT often just tells me the issue here is likely a personal one, not a hardware one. 'The unit is just not worth what I paid as of now, and I often change my rig every now and then, in the event I would have to resell this I will not get anything close if I mention that the 4 ohms dual stereo does not work.'
17. So based solely on your verbal description of a problem the tech quoted you $350? And based on having an internal issue with a completely different amp, which you didn't even say had the same issue, which I doubt it would have, you paid $280 to get that fixed and that somehow sets the repair price? 'he told me he would need some parts, transitors and the work, this was an estimate he said for something around that price, If I left it to him to even further look he was going to take like 80$ just for that. When my engl savage had some internal issue I paid $280.'
18. I never saw a repair bill. You never told me you had it serviced. Initially you refused to take it anywhere because you didn't want to pay a bench fee to get it checked out and you said it would take to long to get it done anyway. In the above email you sent, you even said you didn't want to pay the $80 to have him actually test it and open it up to see what was wrong. 'My initial bill was 350$, but I know this is a bit of a mess for you, I'm willing to take a $250 from you as a partial return and we are done with this transaction mess. If I do not hear from you I have no choice but to ask the credit card to do a retro in to the full $350 amount.'
19. I emailed you the following before you ever paid me, I told you how to trouble-shoot the amp, I told you to file a claim immediately and I even filed the claim for you when you finally decided to go ahead with that.
"I wont accept any returns/refunds, etc once the amp has been shipped. The amp is sold as-is and if it arrives damaged it'll be up to you to file that claim. If you have to file a claim I'll help you any way I can. Obviously we'll both have numerous pictures of the amp before it ships to back up any claim you might need to make. I even have a clip on youtube of me playing it.
If you have any other questions/requests before you send the money please ask. I don't want there to be any surprises for either of us. I don't need one of them eBay nightmare stories come to life and I'm sure you don't either. If I haven't already provided it, my eBay ID is gearjunkie and you can review my feedback there if you have any concerns. Thanks for being patient and all. I'll be waiting for your reply."
20. I asked you to try all of the following troubleshooting steps and you never acknowledged doing any of them so I can only assume you didn't do any them. I even gave you the benefit of the doubt that your cables were all good and that you knew what you were doing.
A. "You might also need to open up the 290 and re-seat the preamp tubes inside."
B. "when you take out the preamp tubes, make sure they go back in the same spots. I think one is a balanced tube for the phase inverter"
C. "take all the power tubes out of channel A side and put them in channel B and vice versa. If the problems follow the power tubes then one is bad and you can find which by swapping each out one at a time with the extra I sent."
D. "If you swap the power tubes ( and make sure you check the back of the amp for a tube diagram indicating which tubes are for which channel or read the manual or contact Mesa ) and the problem is still on one/the same channel, try swapping out the preamp tubes inside. Make sure you note where each was, rotate all three until you hear a change."
E. " Make sure that your FX loop on the Triaxis is off if you're trouble shooting the amp with it hooked up."
F. "Why don't you call Mesa Boogie and see if they have any ideas?"
G. "tap on the power tubes with the amp live using the eraser end of a pencil. If a tube is bad/microphonic ( which means it's going bad ) then you'll hear a ringing like feedback or something."
I found a few threads you had about this on Harmony-Central. I would have appreciated being at least aware of them. They are more infomative than ANY of your emails and some peoples responses are quite similar to my own... The fact that I had to go find them months later just shows how poor your communication was on the whole deal.
http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2056693
http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2052450
http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2048050
From: Leo Prog
To: Nate Miller
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 1:17:34 PM
Subject: Re: Mesa Claim*
I did not think the charge back was in effect, this was filed months ago. I have canceled the paypal thing as I no longer care. Thanks again for responding only when that is an issue on your side. I lost a few hundred on that unit.
From me, today.. 11-19-08 Notice this all started in fuckin July!
OK, I'm really trying to be rational and objective here. You bought a tube amp that is over 10 years old thru a classified ad. It was stated clearly that it was as-is not just because I didn't give a fuck but because I knew that I didn't/don't have the financial means to deal with any eventualities. That's why I insisted it be insured for more than you even payed for it. Tube amps, more to the point tubes, are fragile. Something you buy used is not warrantied, guaranteed or otherwise covered by any quality control. I totally didn't want things to turn out as they did. If I had known there were any issues with the amp I would have stated that and adjusted the price accordingly.
The reasons I'm not willing to refund you anything are as follows ( direct quotes from your emails are in red / direct quotes from me are in blue ):
1. I don't have the money to give you.
2. I have no way of knowing that the amp is really damaged.
3. Your responses to my trouble-shooting steps were vague or non-existent.
4. The amp has worked flawlessly for me for over 10 years.
5. You delayed filing an insurance claim several days 'Hi, I'm still messing around and seeing what the problem is, give me a day or 2 before we do any claims.'
6. What kind of 'messing around' did you do and why would that take several days? Sounds to me like you just didn't like it and you wanted time to tweak before you tried to return it.
7. You seem to lack the understanding of 'as-is' or 'used gear'.
8. You chose to ignore my advice on the following 'I'd suggest using a shipping address that you'll be able to sign for it when it arrives. If Joe-the-shipping-clerk signs for it with his daily delivery you might not get to inspect it first.'
9. This is retarded... stereo into one cab? ' I cant hook up my rig stereo as I dont really own 2 cabs, thou the amp still sounds good.' and ' I planned to use a single 4x12 for a stereo setup, point of the whole rack.'
10. You acknowledge the fact that this problem may have been pre-existing and are assuming that I'd offer a warranty repair or something? 'Hi, I'm still not sure what to do at this point, have you personally ever tried to use both of the 4omh? maybe it never worked right to begin with. I have tried every possible combo and the problem is still there.'
11. You paid half of new retail. You acknowledge the possibility that it was mis-handled. 'I just dont want to be paying full price for something defectiive, not that I'm saying it was your fault, maybe it was during shipment.'
12. You completely ignored my statement as follows. "I wont accept any returns/refunds, etc once the amp has been shipped. The amp is sold as-is and if it arrives damaged it'll be up to you to file that claim."
13. 'I'm not trying to jack anyone, so far I'm with the amp thats not 100% working, I cant just sit and wait for things to happen.' And what did you expect me to do ship you another 2:Ninety to use while that one is being fixed? Would you do that for anyone who bought a used tube amp from you via a classified ad?
14. I don't feel I packed the amp poorly. You said so yourself, twice. 'Hi, got the mesa, packing was great' and 'I just found out from talking to the store/ups and after inspecting the boxes their decision was that it was not packed well. I have to say you packed it similar to what I would do'
15. You expect me to take responsibility for not knowing things I never have/could use not working and to test the amp in EVERY possible way, like a store or manufacturer would? 'If UPS did shake or drop the box we both do not know, or if you never knew the amps dual 4 ohms were not working right. A tech did inspect this for me and I gave the bill estimate to UPS as well. My best guess is that you did not know the amps 4 ohms were messed up, I can understand that if your rig never had it set like that. However I intended to use it like that and in the end the unit was not 100% working. It would of been wise to test as much of the unit before sending.'
16. This is called depreciation. It happens to almost ALL things. To illustrate, I paid about $1200 for that amp over ten years ago, NEW. The fact that your rig changes THAT often just tells me the issue here is likely a personal one, not a hardware one. 'The unit is just not worth what I paid as of now, and I often change my rig every now and then, in the event I would have to resell this I will not get anything close if I mention that the 4 ohms dual stereo does not work.'
17. So based solely on your verbal description of a problem the tech quoted you $350? And based on having an internal issue with a completely different amp, which you didn't even say had the same issue, which I doubt it would have, you paid $280 to get that fixed and that somehow sets the repair price? 'he told me he would need some parts, transitors and the work, this was an estimate he said for something around that price, If I left it to him to even further look he was going to take like 80$ just for that. When my engl savage had some internal issue I paid $280.'
18. I never saw a repair bill. You never told me you had it serviced. Initially you refused to take it anywhere because you didn't want to pay a bench fee to get it checked out and you said it would take to long to get it done anyway. In the above email you sent, you even said you didn't want to pay the $80 to have him actually test it and open it up to see what was wrong. 'My initial bill was 350$, but I know this is a bit of a mess for you, I'm willing to take a $250 from you as a partial return and we are done with this transaction mess. If I do not hear from you I have no choice but to ask the credit card to do a retro in to the full $350 amount.'
19. I emailed you the following before you ever paid me, I told you how to trouble-shoot the amp, I told you to file a claim immediately and I even filed the claim for you when you finally decided to go ahead with that.
"I wont accept any returns/refunds, etc once the amp has been shipped. The amp is sold as-is and if it arrives damaged it'll be up to you to file that claim. If you have to file a claim I'll help you any way I can. Obviously we'll both have numerous pictures of the amp before it ships to back up any claim you might need to make. I even have a clip on youtube of me playing it.
If you have any other questions/requests before you send the money please ask. I don't want there to be any surprises for either of us. I don't need one of them eBay nightmare stories come to life and I'm sure you don't either. If I haven't already provided it, my eBay ID is gearjunkie and you can review my feedback there if you have any concerns. Thanks for being patient and all. I'll be waiting for your reply."
20. I asked you to try all of the following troubleshooting steps and you never acknowledged doing any of them so I can only assume you didn't do any them. I even gave you the benefit of the doubt that your cables were all good and that you knew what you were doing.
A. "You might also need to open up the 290 and re-seat the preamp tubes inside."
B. "when you take out the preamp tubes, make sure they go back in the same spots. I think one is a balanced tube for the phase inverter"
C. "take all the power tubes out of channel A side and put them in channel B and vice versa. If the problems follow the power tubes then one is bad and you can find which by swapping each out one at a time with the extra I sent."
D. "If you swap the power tubes ( and make sure you check the back of the amp for a tube diagram indicating which tubes are for which channel or read the manual or contact Mesa ) and the problem is still on one/the same channel, try swapping out the preamp tubes inside. Make sure you note where each was, rotate all three until you hear a change."
E. " Make sure that your FX loop on the Triaxis is off if you're trouble shooting the amp with it hooked up."
F. "Why don't you call Mesa Boogie and see if they have any ideas?"
G. "tap on the power tubes with the amp live using the eraser end of a pencil. If a tube is bad/microphonic ( which means it's going bad ) then you'll hear a ringing like feedback or something."
I found a few threads you had about this on Harmony-Central. I would have appreciated being at least aware of them. They are more infomative than ANY of your emails and some peoples responses are quite similar to my own... The fact that I had to go find them months later just shows how poor your communication was on the whole deal.
http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2056693
http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2052450
http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2048050
From: Leo Prog
To: Nate Miller
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 1:17:34 PM
Subject: Re: Mesa Claim*
I did not think the charge back was in effect, this was filed months ago. I have canceled the paypal thing as I no longer care. Thanks again for responding only when that is an issue on your side. I lost a few hundred on that unit.
