National Socialism and Eastern Europe

[Erik]

So as I'm receiving my 29758th NSBM record from ex-Soviet states, countries like Ukraine, Poland, Russia, Belarus, even Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania (which aren't really technically parts of Eastern Europe in my book) I kind of wonder what makes these countries churn out such vast amounts of NS-themed bands. I mean, if you see this sort of thing in the metal underground so often, surely there must be other NS movements many times larger than that in those same countries -- and I wonder why, exactly? Is it because they are so disillusioned with the misery brought upon them by Communism that they shy as far away as possible from anything even remotely leftist? Because (in the case of Estonia, etc) the Nazis "saved" them from the far worse Soviet occupation during WW2? Because they're still relatively poor countries after the fall of Soviet and find reasons for their poverty in immigration etc? Because the trend recently is for Eastern European countries to become more and more friendly to the Great Western Empire, and they still have some sense of their own tradition and culture which they hope to preserve through NS? Some of all of the above? Any thoughts?

 

[lizard]

Extremism always flourishes when the economy is bad. Everyone is looking for someone else to blame and therefore feel better about themselves.

 

[Ayeka]

I think it was JK who pointed out in a past thread that it would seem quite insulting for these bands to embrace NS after we took the trouble to liberate them from it. I view then and now was/is that a swastika and emphasis on the Nationalist part of National Socialism leaves no doubt in anyone's eyes as to which side of the fence you're on and where your loyalties lie. WWII was over 60 years ago so proud younger people who don't see it with such a football hooligan's attitude will of course be able to look at it from a 'detatched' perspective.

As to why there's so many of them in the East...I'd be inclined to think a mixture of poor economies (remember, though, at least these guys can afford their own instruments) and a need to find a national identity now they ain't controlled by Ruskies no more. That's quite a generalisation though.

 

[JayKeeley]

I totally agree with the downsizing of economy leading to an increase in all this nationalism, and this happens anywhere in the world. With regards to something I might have said about Churchill's soldiers liberating the eastern block, I do accept that even back in WW2, there were many, many nazi sympathizers that didn't want saving as such.

Perhaps these NS folk are the offspring of those who once sided with Hitler?? I don't think it ventures beyond the metal underground by the way. Metal is so outcast as it is, I'm sure most common folk frown upon anything NS related, and metal is hidden, allowing people to get away with it, knowing there is an audience out there either way.

I think both lurch and Markgugs at one point indicated that metal itself (regardless of sub-genre) tends to get more popular when economies fail. I don't have any sociological evidence or stats, but I think this might be true. Certainly metal came from the trenches, from the working class industries, so perhaps this remains true in the uprising of any genre.

 

[MajestikMøøse]

Funny that you mention that because yesterday I just got my Loits CD where you have the band dressed as German soldiers in their pictures and the record is dedicated to the Estonian freedom fighters. These freedom fighters were most likely fighting off communists, so I find that rather interesting in relation to the topic because that seems to be the case here, although I'm unsure to what degree Loits lies in the realms of National Socialism.

I'm pretty sure that the National Socialist movements in Eastern Europe is probably linked to the fact that they were oppressed by communists who maintain that we're all equal on every level, and now that the Soviet Union is gone these people are likely trying to re-establish their distinct cultural identities; albeit through an extreme reactionary movement. Although, I don't see anything strange about this because cultural movements do tend to have groups of people who will accept extreme solutions for what they believe to be the best interest of their people.

In other news and related to the first paragraph, I noticed this on the Ledo Takas website:

"January 19th 2005

Vere Kutse Kohustab voted number one in Estonia

Listeners of Metalion radio show voted for the latest LOITS album as the best Estonian Metal record of 2004...."

 

[lizard]

best Estonian metal album of 2004?

isn't that kind of like saying you're the best hockey player in Chile? It just doesn't mean very much.

 

[speed]

Esthonia is a lovely country. I can understand Lithuania and Esthonia--but the Nazi's treated the Ukrainians, Russians, and Poles like animals. If they tried to show them just an ounce of humanity Im sure the whole area would have been been behind them.

I think Nazis represent the highest form of rebellion one could espouse in these countries that were so ravaged by WWII, and Stalin. Still, remember the Pale was the center of anti-semitism even more so than Germany. Hell I think the tsarist Russians and the peoples of the pale( Ukraine, Borders of Poland etc) first started the whole purges and pogroms against the jews etc. But still, Hell, the jews are all gone, there are but a few minorities.

 

[JayKeeley]

Re: immigration, why would poor people want to move to East Europe? Isn't that like jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire?

 

[spaffe]

I've also thought about that but haven't come with anything resembling an answer. But perhaps it's associated with the fall of the Soveit empire and the subsequent and quite sudden introduction of capitalism in the freed nations. The free market was to be the cure and infallible sollution for the poor economical state of the land, but as it is now (especially in Russia) many have gotten extremly rich while the great majority remains relativly poor. Thus many in the lower classes (were the level of education is low and easy answers are wanted) become disillusioned with capitalism, in a similar way as with communism. In such a case I think national socialism, or some branch of it, feels like a good and proper way to go; there you find both anti-communist and anti-capitalist sentiments and also a much needed scape-goat in the form of jewry. This scapegoat with the accompanying nazi sterotype of them as greedy and degenerate bankers become very fertile in such an environment; they come represent the failed and exploiting capitalism and perhaps the efforts of the EU to incorporate the land into the new capitalist and free market world order as well, similar to the format Soviet state.

 

[NAD]

Rebellion against Western Europe and the Soviets "fuck ALL you biatches, we're better than EVERYONE!"

Honestly I don't know enough about the region to find some deeper psychological reason, but mankind is guided by xenophobia and it's awfully easy to mix that with pride. Hatred ensues.

 

[Henrik Main]

Erik pretty much summed up my thoughts quite well. I think most of the so-called NS people are disillusioned youngsters looking for a scape goat for the fact that they're

1) Unemployed
2) Poor
3) Living in a country that is, most probably, crap - if you're not amongst the 10% who are well off materially.

Here in Norway, "nazis" are mainly young boys from the big cities, who are pissed off because they can't find a job/don't have any friends. Some of these may also have been beaten up/been robbed by a bunch of immigrants too (if you don't have any friends and walk around in town alone, you're an easy victim. Several immigrants turn to violence and crime because of a crap integration policy), and thus they label ALL foreign looking people as enemies. Nazi organisations seem attractive because the unity thought is very predominant amongst such groups, and thus, the lone youngster suddenly has a bunch of friends who will always stick with him through thick and thin (so he believes) and also because he now has something "worthwile" to do in his spare time (creating illegal papers, flyers, working with a website etc).

Keep in mind that there are very few NS people in Norway, and I think THIS is the main factor. Former Soviet countries, on the other hand, suffer from the post-Cold War and post-Communism diseases, and should have had some years with mixed economy before adopting the free market economy. They obviously have not been prepared well enough for such a major change, and poverty is still common. The difference between the middle class in Ukraine and the middle class in Norway is VAST, and more poor people means more people looking for something to take out their hate on. NS is sadly a natural choice for many. Most "NS" people in Eastern Europe probably don't give a shit about national pride and all that, I doubt that they are "idealists" in any way. It's simply a way of expressing their anger and hatred towards

1) Their crap past (Communism)
2) The free market economy (Free market economy is similar to "survival of the fittest" in my book, and these people obviously don't have what it takes to survive in a competitive environment. Tough luck, but that's life)
3) The masterminds behind free market economy, (allegedly) the Jews (I don't think hatred against immigrants is that predominant yet, as there aren't A LOT of immigrants in those countries yet)

Finishing off, I'd quite like to give a big thumbs down to "nazis" in general, but ESPECIALLY to the Eastern European ones. Stop throwing terms like "We're the Arian future" around, stop calling your talentless band "Arian Terrorism". I'm 100000 times more Arian than you (Norwegian and Northwestern German blood exclusively, several people in my family are into exploring the family tree and finding out about our ancestors), and I don't want to be associated with people such as you (OK, so this wasn't exactly a valid point, but hey ). Read what Hitler and your ideological masters thought about Eastern Europeans, get your life sorted out and stop whining. k thx

 

[Henrik Main]

Issit just me, or isn't my last post showing up? Curious.

 

[NAD]

I see it (it's pretty long so I haven't read it yet ). It probably didn't bump the thread though, UM has a tendency to do that on poorly functioning days, like today. And yesterday. And the day before.

 

[Henrik Main]

Now I suddenly see it too. I wish the UM server/software/whatever could start to function properly soon.

 

[lizard]

so I guess from reading these posts we can pretty much conclude that national socialism becomes more prevalent when a nation's people don't have quality, soft, absorbent toilet paper.

 

[spaffe]

I'm 100000 times more Arian than you (Norwegian and Northwestern German blood exclusively, several people in my family are into exploring the family tree and finding out about our ancestors), and I don't want to be associated with people such as you (OK, so this wasn't exactly a valid point, but hey ). Read what Hitler and your ideological masters thought about Eastern Europeans, get your life sorted out and stop whining. k thx

Good post, pretty much my thoughts, though I feel like pointing out a few things about the part I quoted: The origin of the Aryans (the real aryans or indo-europeans, not the stuff the old nazis were raving about with blonde people with blue eyes and all that, which I think the more knowledgeable bands, like Drudkh, are not refering to) seems to be a tough question to solve but from what I've gathered from our politically correct course books the theories hold that they emigrated from the southern parts of today's Ukraine into India were they conquered the natives with their superior bronze weapons and horses, and formed a warrior elite with the darker natives as serfs/menials. But as time went by they were assimilated into the racial stock of the more numerous natives. They also spread quite widely elsewere (I'm aware that I'm not being very concrete here, but bear with me) which have been proved among other things through linguistics (as an example, the indian word for ruler "raj" is related to the latin/english word "royal"). So what I'm saying is; if the band in question is from Ukraine, chances are that they are "the most" aryan in the real historical meaning and perhaps rightly regard themselves as the heirs of a great people of conquerors.

 

[Hell Mike]

the theories hold that they emigrated from the southern parts of today's Ukraine

Not from mesopotamia and then spread up here and into india?

 

[spaffe]

Not from mesopotamia and then spread up here and into india?

I'm pretty far from being well read on the subject, but that's nothing I've read/heard about and it sounds a bit too fantasical. I plan on reading up on it though

EDIT: "up here" as in scandinavia? If that's what you meant, I'd say that sounds very much like a construction by ultra-nationalists

 

[JayKeeley]

Erik pretty much summed up my thoughts quite well. I think most of the so-called NS people are disillusioned youngsters looking for a scape goat for the fact that they're

1) Unemployed
2) Poor
3) Living in a country that is, most probably, crap - if you're not amongst the 10% who are well off materially.

Here in Norway, "nazis" are mainly young boys from the big cities, who are pissed off because they can't find a job/don't have any friends. Some of these may also have been beaten up/been robbed by a bunch of immigrants too (if you don't have any friends and walk around in town alone, you're an easy victim. Several immigrants turn to violence and crime because of a crap integration policy), and thus they label ALL foreign looking people as enemies. Nazi organisations seem attractive because the unity thought is very predominant amongst such groups, and thus, the lone youngster suddenly has a bunch of friends who will always stick with him through thick and thin (so he believes) and also because he now has something "worthwile" to do in his spare time (creating illegal papers, flyers, working with a website etc).

Keep in mind that there are very few NS people in Norway, and I think THIS is the main factor. Former Soviet countries, on the other hand, suffer from the post-Cold War and post-Communism diseases, and should have had some years with mixed economy before adopting the free market economy. They obviously have not been prepared well enough for such a major change, and poverty is still common. The difference between the middle class in Ukraine and the middle class in Norway is VAST, and more poor people means more people looking for something to take out their hate on. NS is sadly a natural choice for many. Most "NS" people in Eastern Europe probably don't give a shit about national pride and all that, I doubt that they are "idealists" in any way. It's simply a way of expressing their anger and hatred towards

1) Their crap past (Communism)
2) The free market economy (Free market economy is similar to "survival of the fittest" in my book, and these people obviously don't have what it takes to survive in a competitive environment. Tough luck, but that's life)
3) The masterminds behind free market economy, (allegedly) the Jews (I don't think hatred against immigrants is that predominant yet, as there aren't A LOT of immigrants in those countries yet)

Finishing off, I'd quite like to give a big thumbs down to "nazis" in general, but ESPECIALLY to the Eastern European ones. Stop throwing terms like "We're the Arian future" around, stop calling your talentless band "Arian Terrorism". I'm 100000 times more Arian than you (Norwegian and Northwestern German blood exclusively, several people in my family are into exploring the family tree and finding out about our ancestors), and I don't want to be associated with people such as you (OK, so this wasn't exactly a valid point, but hey ). Read what Hitler and your ideological masters thought about Eastern Europeans, get your life sorted out and stop whining. k thx

Excellent, excellent post. Glad to have you as a regular.

With regards to this comment, "...Here in Norway, "nazis" are mainly young boys from the big cities, who are pissed off because they can't find a job/don't have any friends. Some of these may also have been beaten up/been robbed by a bunch of immigrants too..."

Yes, there is always something that 'triggers' this. Nobody wakes up one day feeling this resentment, and certainly racism isn't passed through genetics. Most nazi hooligan types probably have racist parents, or have become a product of their downtrodden environment and are looking for a scapegoat.

Has anyone seen "American History X"? It's really quite a well thought out movie, a young man joins a neo-nazi group after his father (a fireman) is killed by a black man, and so all of a sudden, anybody that isn't white is an 'enemy'. This guy, played by Ed Norton, is really quite well thought out in his views.

Then he goes to prison and gets gang raped butt fucked by his own white nazi prisonmates (in the shower no less!). It's pretty gruesome. Nevertheless, his outlook on white people being 'better' than non-whites is slightly marred.

 

[lizard]

so when did they get the red dots on their foreheads?