National Socialism and Eastern Europe

Many argue against me, so don't side with me just yet. :D

I have never been convinced by the "southern heritage" argument, but am open to it if someone can expand on it, showing me that the Confederate Flag represented something other than the Confederacy when it first came into being. Or that the Confederacy was formed for reasons other than the threat of slavery being abolished. The only argument I've heard is the "the south didn't want to be controlled by the north, it wasn't just slavery," which is total bullshit. They wanted my pals in their place, that's it.
 
I wonder how long slavery would of lasted if the southern states never bitched about slavery being barred from any of the new territories? In the beginning Lincoln never set out to emancipate any of the slaves. Just curb the legalization of it in any of the western territories that were going for statehood. He didn't think America was ready for the abolishment of slavery in the year 1860. He figured it would end eventually on it's on. When the american people were ready for it. Can you picture what america would be like today if slavery still existed? Imagine slaves being flogged in the carolina's as they till the soil.

The following positives could be noted if we lived in such a nation.

1- Lower Crime Rate across the board.
2- No hideous rap music. :tickled:
 
Ayeka said:
Yeah, you're right about RS. Funny how it ties in with what was said on the first page of this thread about dissatisfied youths falling into NS culture. On that level, it's a very sad film and very worth watching. You end up feeling sorry for the 'bad guys' by the end.
Good point, yes that's true. Both films are good in that regard. Even at the end of AHX, you feel bad because the kid brother gets shot (by a black guy no less), showing how this whole thing is a vicious circle. Hate breeds hate, etc.

Atlas Shrugged said:
1- Lower Crime Rate across the board.
You know, it's interesting when you look at black crime in the US. Most of it is petty or drug related. They're either robbing 7-11 corner stores, or selling weed to the neighbor. And yes, there is gang warfare (black on black crime)....but at the end of the day, this is all a reflection of people living in poverty, and definitely a reflection of why so many black people are in prison.

Compare it to crime amongst whites though. Geez....98% of the world's serial killers live in the USA, and 97% of them are white middle-class suburbanites psychos. Also, what is it with paedophiles, child abuse (particularly in the home), kidnap, molestation, spousal abuse / wife beating? All of this is near-unanimous white crime in the USA.

Pretty weird how you can rationalize this stuff amongst racial demographics, and we've barely even touched upon 'stereotypes'.
 
One Inch Man said:
Or that the Confederacy was formed for reasons other than the threat of slavery being abolished.

States' rights is usually the justification. Whether you want to tie that in to slavery or not is up to you. I think the Southern States all favored the right of the State over the right of a centralized Federal government, while the Northern States did not. They favored the ability to govern themselves without major intereference from a central power far away. That point of view dates back to the formation of the Constitution and Anti-Federalists who supported the Articles of Confederation over creating a Constitution supporting a strong federal government. Thomas Jefferson was a leading Anti-Federalist and helped create the Bill of Rights that gave more rights to individuals and states. The States' Rights point of view focuses mainly on the idea that a State has better ability to govern its people than a centralized system.

Now, you can certainly say that the reason the Southerners would support a train of thought like this was so they could continue making a living with slavery as a part of that, or you could look back towards the time after the Revolution when slavery was not as much of an issue and it still garnered support. The Articles of Confederation was the first governing document of the United States and created a loose federation of states joined in a common cause. So, you could also argue that these people wanted to get back to what they considered a more adequate system of government. There are a lot of ways you could argue that the Confederacy was founded on a seperate government ideology and many ways you can argue it was founded on the need for slavery or that it was a combination of both. Did the southern people fear the industrial strength of the North and want to split from this differing way of life? The growth of two separate cultures can lead to a split, especially when they are divided by location. If we divided those who supported Kerry in the last election and those who supported Bush into two separate areas of the country, I don't think it would be far fetched that something like this could happen.

I think there are a lot of ways that you could explain the cause of the war or at least the seeds of discontent, but inevitably, slavery is going to be tied into many of them by many different people. In reality, most of the men who fought in the Civil War were fighting for their state, for their heritage. Men in the north fought for the area they lived in and many for the preservation of the Union, not to free slaves. In the South, men fought for their place of birth, including Robert E. Lee and others who cared not for slavery, but for where they lived and for him, that was Virginia. Had that state not seceded, Robert E. Lee would have been a Union General. Slavery is blown out of proportion because of Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation, a strategic move to free Southern slaves to rebel against their white owners. I'm pretty sure he didn't initially free all of the slaves, only those owned by Southerners and he saw it as a way to suppress the rebellion. Slavery is an excuse for people in the U.S. to portray the Confederacy as the "bad guys" in the conflict, since good vs. evil is always necessary in such matters. It is true that slavery was an integral part of Southern life at the time, but it is pure idiocy to think it the sole cause of war or even one of the major ones.

I also don't see why it would be hypocritical for those who are anti-slavery to own and showcase a Confederate flag. Men fought and died for the Southern states, some of them ancestors to these people, and not because they wanted to protect slavery, but because they had an undying faith in and love for their home state. If someone agrees with that view and is proud of being a Texan or Virginian, then it's pretty dumb to label them something they aren't. The Confederate Flag represents a view these men fought for and has today morphed into a symbol of pride in those actions and pride in the states they were born in for being a part of it. Symbols are up for interpretation by anyone who views them and for someone to judge a person who holds high a Confederate Flag and tell them that it can't represent pride in home or anything outside the common view is a moron. The NAACP and other such organizations that seek the removal of the Confederate Flag from public view and government areas should be ashamed of themselves. Do they not know that slavery in America existed long before there was a flag outside of the traditional American flag flying over these shores and that usually they were brought into the North and then sold there?

Anyway, I don't know how much of this is even going to make sense, I'm trying to write a book report at the same time, but I'm trying to showcase some separate point of views, because the general public, even in this country, doesn't know a whole lot about The Civil War and where some people are coming from. I was born in Texas, I understand a lot about southern life, etc. that most people don't.
 
Well, Opeth17 pretty much said it all. Basically, if you weren't born in the South, you wouldn't understand.

Slavery was a major issue in the war, but like Opeth17 said, Southerners and Northerners were fighting for a way of life. Northerners wanted to abolish slavery because slaves were free labor, and what businessman would pay a white worker when he has a my pals that works for free? Southerners, on the other hand, look at "slave work" as beneath them, so they naturally wanted slaves.

But what history doesn't tell many of us is that this was fought over slavery in the territories, not in the South/ However, by the US Gov't abolishing slavery in the territories, the South saw that as a movement to entirely abolish slavery, and took action. This is where the Southern belief in state rights comes in, and the belief that the federal gov't should have little say in what goes on within a state as far as it's laws are concerned.

But yes, history paints the North as liberators, when in fact, they could really give a rat's ass about freeing the my pals. It was economy based, not about slavery. Hey, kinda sounds like some other war I know.

And of course, history teaches us that the South were inbred rednecks who wanted to whip my pals, when they were actually simple people who fought for what they saw was in their best interests. Nothing more.

The popular Confederate flag, also known as the Southern Cross, was the battle flag. The 13 stars represent the 11 states, plus Kentucky and Missouri. The flag of course has come to represent Southern heritage and culture, while most non-whites and non-Southerners see it as a symbol of racism.

Like I said, if you're not from the South, you wouldn't understand. Something like this can't be taught.
 
Thanks you two, I knew J. would chime in but had forgotten about Opeth17. :loco:

Correct, the Civil War wasn't entirely caused by slavery, but my point is that it was the powder keg, or at the very least the guiding issue. If slavery was not an issue of contention, I'd bet dollars to donuts the Civil War would've never happened. Case in point, read the original draft of the Declaration of Independence. Contained is a clause discussing the institution of slavery was:
he has waged cruel war against human nature itself, violating it's most sacred rights of life and liberty in the persons of a distant people who never offended him, captivating and carrying them into slavery in another hemispere, or to incure miserable death in their transportation hither. this piratical warfare, the opprobium of infidel powers, is the warfare of the Christian king of Great Britain. [determined to keep open a market where MEN should be bought and sold,] he has prostituted his negative for suppressing every legislative attempt to prohibit or to restrain this execrable commerce [determining to keep open a market where MEN should be bought and sold]: and that this assemblage of horrors might want no fact of distinguished die, he is now exciting those very people to rise in arms among us, and to purchase that liberty of which he had deprived them, by murdering the people upon whom he also obtruded them: thus paying off former crimes committed against the liberties of one people, with crimes which he urges them to commit against the lives of another.
Why was this taken out? The South wouldn't have signed on the dotted line for the Constitution. They were okay with forming the centralized gov't and abolishing the Articles of Confederation, AS LONG AS SLAVERY REMAINED INTACT. Who needs states' rights when we've got our my pals?

Concerning the current argument of defending states' rights (but if I dug far enough I'd probably find an appropriate example from the time of the Civil War): Modern Republicans are gung-ho about states' rights, unless of course it interferes with their agenda. For example, how many states have legalized marijuana for medical use? I think around 5 so far, all of which were shot down by the conservative majority of the US Supreme Court. Same thing applies to the ill-fated 2000 election, the Florida Supreme Court decided one thing, then the conservative majority US Supreme Court stepped in again and said no, without proper jurisdiction (speed, if you're reading this part could you confirm or refute?). Point being, the argument of states' rights is a weak ruse now, and it probably was then.
 
keep in mind, the use of the stars and bars (confederate flag) being included in various southern state's' flags until the early sixties, when they were being forced by the federal government to allow fair voting for all. hence, the excuse that it is a symbol of southern heritage and pride is a hollow smokescreen for racism. fucking crackers.

put it this way...if I see a pickup with a confederate flag on it, I'm 90% sure that the driver has a mullet, worships Dale Earnhart, and has a Hank Williams Jr. CD playing.
 
lizard said:
keep in mind, the use of the stars and bars (confederate flag) being included in various southern state's' flags until the early sixties, when they were being forced by the federal government to allow fair voting for all. hence, the excuse that it is a symbol of southern heritage and pride is a hollow smokescreen for racism. fucking crackers.
Je ne pas :erk: (I think...)

I don't quite understand...
 
a number of the southern states have flags which include some aspects of the confederate flag in their motif. however, they didn't include these aspects in the designs until the fifties/early sixties, when civil rights was forcing the crackers to allow blacks to vote.

Alabama: (one of the stunningly ignorant flag designs)
note the crossed diagonal "bars", a key ingredient of the confederate flag
alflag.gif


Florida: ditto about the bars
flflag.jpg


Georgia: (they changed it from this only three years ago due to economic pressure)
gaflag-1956-2001.gif


Mississippi (absolutely horrid)
msflag.jpg
 
Your always going to have idiots. It's just a given. Yes, some people do use the Confederate Flag to express racist views, the KKK, or individuals like lizard just described.

Yet, people like myself or Opeth17 see it as a symbol of where we come from. What's wrong with that? Everyone wants to hang onto some of the old trdition and culture before the PC Army just goes right through it with their holier-than-thou thought process of "Oh noes, it's law that no one should be offended!"

And I don't kow the situation in Great Britian, but does the Union Jack cause as much of a ruckus as the COnfederate Flag?
 
The Union Jack was a symbol of greatness once upon a time (if you take pride in the Empire, monarchy, etc), and then in the 70's it was hijacked by the white racist gangs (skinheads). This makes sense probably because the largest immigrant influx occured in the late 60's and 70's in the UK from the West Indies (Jamaica) and East Africa (after Idi Amin kicked out all the Indians that had been living there for generations).

And then it was taken over by punks and metal in the 80's. (Just look at Def Lepperd and Iron Maiden). Skinheads disappeared over night.

Then in the 90's, it became pop culture! Spice girls, Austin Powers, Oasis, and so on. I think even in the USA, people like the union jack and they have it on their jeans or cars or whatever. I know a yank who drives a MINI with the union jack on the roof!

There is no way the union jack is considered racist anymore (perhaps for a few years) but that didn't last long thankfully. Today, people look at it and think 'james bond' and 'brit-pop' music.

Actually, with all said and done, race relations in the UK are fantastic, especially with the immigrants that came in during the 60's and 70's. I guess time heals all wounds and everyone seems pretty integrated now. You can see this in the culture, and you can see this in the media.

The problems in the UK today revolve around all the gypsies etc flooding in from East Europe, or the Chinese on the run from the Hong Kong takeover. I dunno, I guess there are always people looking to find blame that never take a look in the mirror.
 
Well, I've never held a knife to my own throat, if that's what you mean...
Other than that, pretty good assessment JK.

As far as flags go...I have the flag of St George hung proudly in my room :)

(btw, gotcha now, lizard!)