ner ner ner nerr!!

[Goreripper]

I am for gay rights as well but the children issue is a tricky one. I feel that if a gay couple does have a child the mother/father should be in that childs life.

Yeah, but how is that different from a hetero couple with step kids, for example?

Are we talking about foster kids, or kids conceived thru IVF? A child has a right to know who its biological parents are, regardless of the situation. What rights those parents have to being involved with that child depends on what the circumstances are that put them (the children) in that situation, particularly with regards to fostering. IVF is a whole other can of worms.

 

[phlogiston]

Are we talking about foster kids, or kids conceived thru IVF? A child has a right to know who its biological parents are, regardless of the situation. What rights those parents have to being involved with that child depends on what the circumstances are that put them (the children) in that situation, particularly with regards to fostering. IVF is a whole other can of worms.

Yeah, but what's the difference between a straight couple and a gay couple in that situation?

 

[phlogiston]

Next time check the irony meter isn't bouncing into the red.

But that's my thing.

 

[Goreripper]

Yeah, but what's the difference between a straight couple and a gay couple in that situation?

None. Matt said the child's actual parents should be involved in that child's life. Well that's true regardless of whether the legal guardians are gay or not, but I think it also depends on the birth parents' own situation. If he's saying that a birth parent whose given up their child for adoption, or had it taken away because they were violent or insane or an atrocious junkie or something, should then still have a say in whether a gay couple adopts that child or not well then I don't think they should. If they want to have some level of involvement then they should be allowed depending on the reason they recinded their parental rights in the first place.

 

[mattt]

I just think that the child needs both a male and female influence in their life. Whether they are actually the biological parents - depends on the situation.

Its a tricky issue.

 

[Spiff]

Plenty of people grow up in single-parent households. What about them? I didn't have a male influence in my life and I turned out OK.

 

[Goreripper]

I just think that the child needs both a male and female influence in their life. Whether they are actually the biological parents - depends on the situation.

Its a tricky issue.

Ah ok, I understand what you meant now. I see your point. There certainly should be people of both sexes involved in a child's life at close family level; a "father-figure" or a "mother-figure" if you like. But that doesn't necessitate that person actually living with them. As long as there is a good close friend or adult relative who can comfortably fit that role it would work in the same way.

 

[salty]

Why though?

If a gay female couple have a child by IVF, and there's no 'father' figure, and the kid grows up being really effeminate but attracted to girls...clock one up for nurture over nature...but how is that wrong? We adjust to our environment and are shaped by our life experiences.

Who gets to define 'normal'?

 

[mattt]

spiff/salty. Good points. I hadn't thought of it that way. Thanks for the food for thought.

 

[mattt]

Plenty of people grow up in single-parent households. What about them? I didn't have a male influence in my life and I turned out OK.

Just a question Spiff. Did you grow up longing for a father/father figuire? I know my mothers' father died when she was 3 and she has always said she wished she had a father/figuire in her life. But then again, perhaps that is just her.

 

[Goreripper]

Why though?

If a gay female couple have a child by IVF, and there's no 'father' figure, and the kid grows up being really effeminate but attracted to girls...clock one up for nurture over nature...but how is that wrong? We adjust to our environment and are shaped by our life experiences.

I'd go so far as to postulate that a boy raised under those conditions would probably not be effeminate at all. But he would have a really unique respect and understanding of women that would make him ridiculously popular with the opposite sex.

Just a question Spiff. Did you grow up longing for a father/father figuire? I know my mothers' father died when she was 3 and she has always said she wished she had a father/figuire in her life. But then again, perhaps that is just her.

I doubt it would be just her, but as Salty has suggested, we all deal with things in different ways.

 

[Spiff]

Just a question Spiff. Did you grow up longing for a father/father figuire?

Not at all.

 

[Stonewall]

We don't need parents. We have TV.

 

[phlogiston]

But that's all changing as well. Kids used to be teased for only having one parent, or divorced parents. Now that's almost the norm.

 

[Celestial-Todd]

I was about to make that exact same point. I remember back when I finished high school (98), kids who came from "broken" families still got teased mercilessly. These days it's totally different, I was looking at my nieces school photo the other day with her and she pointed out that only 3 kids in her class have a "mum and dad at home"

 

[JonBonJovi]

Ok on the gay parents issue. one of my old close friends grew up with his mother comming out as gay at the age of seven she then had the same woman in her life from when he was 8 and his brother was 5. Older kid grew up so well adjusted and ever so straight he was very very popular with all ladies. His younger brother was pretty screwed up because his father was still around and treated him and his mother like garbage every time he had access to him.
You'll also find gay couples are hell of a lot more honest to their kids than straight ones. The way in which many IVF processes happen in these situations is that the sperm or egg donar is known to the family and is seen as an Aunt or Uncle type figure until the child is older enough to grasp the concept of that was the person who helped that child come into the world through their donation.
These kids tend to on the majority be cherished so much and nothing usually stands in the way on the parents making sure these kids have a fullfilling life.
Remeber also yes kids do tease and make fun of others that are different but this is usually from behaviour learnt from family. Gay couples with children tend to only socialise with people who are open and accepting of their lives.
I grew up in a horrible broken environment my aprents really should never have had kids together, but even with all this I was taught tolerence of others and their ways of life.
I plan on donating my eggs to IVF or a fertility centre and I also am up for gay couples I have contact with if they wished for one of my eggs to be used for them I'd do it in a heartbeat. I know of the horrible struggle these men and women have to go through just to be recognised as a commited couple let alone the heartbreaking journey it is to concieve and have a child through donation.

 

[Celestial-Todd]

They may socialise with people more accepting of their life, but remember, kids spend a large majority of their time around other school kids away from their parents. And if grown adults struggle to understand/accept gay couple with families, children sure as hell won't

I personally don't care whether the parents are male-female, male-male or female-female.... bad parenting makes for bad children

 

[phlogiston]

I personally don't care whether the parents are male-female, male-male or female-female.... bad parenting makes for bad children

 

[Celestial-Todd]

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/sperm-donor-ordered-to-pay-lesbians/2007/12/05/1196530715490.html

This pisses me off in more ways then I care to explain. The only thing I can say is, the guy should have gotten everything in writing, if he did, the women wouldn't have a legal leg to stand on

 

[mattt]

I can't believe we are having a civil discussion about this. thats really good.

there are quite a few points I haven't looked at/thought about before so I thank you for opening my eyes somewhat.

and Todd, that article is fucked.