New album Foregone out February 2023

[DE4life]

AI is getting pretty crazy these days. I've been using a piece of google tech called NotebookLM (https://notebooklm.google.com) - it can summarise and have a conversation with you about a PDF or TXT document you submit. That alone is pretty amazing as it's incredibly accurate. I uploaded a 100k+ word novel I wrote some time ago, and it was answering every question I had about it correctly. The odd slip up here and there, but 95% accurate.

However, these features have been around for a while. What's crazier is that it can generate a podcast-style chat between two people discussing the file you've uploaded. I fed it a handful of forum posts from here from when Save Me was released, and it generated the below conversation about it:



Keep in mind I did not give this AI anything more than around a dozen posts from here. All the stuff where they're discussing In Flames' history, none of that was in the PDF. It's fucking scary. A88, Eochaid, JesterDoor, Slave and only4theweak187 all namedropped

I also asked it:

"Summarise Jester Slave's points, and the strengths and weaknesses of his arguments"

The answer:

Jester Slave argues that In Flames fans are predictable in their dislike of the band's new sound, and that eventually they will come to appreciate songs like 'Save Me', even if they don't like them now.
●
He states, "Didn’t I say numerously (even around SC’s release) that the time will come, when ASOP will become SC and will become whatever the next record may be? Yes, I did."

.
●
He goes on to say, "...I know better does not equal good. Bonus round: In 3 years, one of you will say 'I’d rather listen to Save Me than [insert song from the new record]' or 'At least Save Me was [something]'"

.
Strengths:
●
Jester Slave identifies a pattern in the way some fans react to new In Flames music, and this pattern has precedent. It's possible that those who currently dislike In Flames' newer material may come to appreciate it later on, as has happened with past albums.

Weaknesses:
●
Jester Slave's argument is based on a generalisation, and he offers no specific evidence to support it. It's entirely possible that some fans will never enjoy the band's newer sound.
●
His tone is also quite antagonistic. Phrases such as "Bonus round", "The fucking record is not even out yet, what the hell man", and "Sure, you will clearly rather pop out your eyeball than ever admit SC was better than [something]"

are unlikely to encourage thoughtful discussion or persuade others to see his point of view.
●
He focuses his argument on what fans might say in the future. This is impossible to predict or prove and feels like a cheap tactic to win an argument that is essentially subjective.

Damn lads, the future is here and it's pretty crazy.

 

[Xpyro125]

AI is getting pretty crazy these days. I've been using a piece of google tech called NotebookLM (https://notebooklm.google.com) - it can summarise and have a conversation with you about a PDF or TXT document you submit. That alone is pretty amazing as it's incredibly accurate. I uploaded a 100k+ word novel I wrote some time ago, and it was answering every question I had about it correctly. The odd slip up here and there, but 95% accurate.

However, these features have been around for a while. What's crazier is that it can generate a podcast-style chat between two people discussing the file you've uploaded. I fed it a handful of forum posts from here from when Save Me was released, and it generated the below conversation about it:



Keep in mind I did not give this AI anything more than around a dozen posts from here. All the stuff where they're discussing In Flames' history, none of that was in the PDF. It's fucking scary. A88, Eochaid, JesterDoor, Slave and only4theweak187 all namedropped

I also asked it:

"Summarise Jester Slave's points, and the strengths and weaknesses of his arguments"

The answer:





Damn lads, the future is here and it's pretty crazy.

Well, Slave was somewhat right. I actually do quite like Save Me, and I’m glad it’s not House.

Low bar, of course, but I won’t apologize.

 

[drawntoblack]

That AI podcast is downright impressive.

 

[DE4life]

Here's a near 14 minute AI podcast discussing the Battles pre-release thread (well, a handful of posts from it).



Transcript below:

[Speaker 1]
All right, so today we're diving into some serious In Flames territory. We're gonna be looking at the pre-release buzz around battles, specifically a fan forum that you sent to me and let me tell you, things are getting a little heated over there.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, it's really interesting to see how fans kind of react. When you even get a sniff of some new music coming out from a band that they love it's like this weird mixture of like excitement, but also dread.

[Speaker 1]
Oh 100%, and this forum really captures that perfectly. We've got everything from, you know, kind of cautious optimism to like full-on meltdown mode.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, that's what makes it so interesting, right? It's like a microcosm of the relationship between an artist and their and their fan base. Particularly in the age of the Internet, where everyone has a voice and everyone has a platform.

[Speaker 1]
Exactly, and they are not afraid to use it, especially on this forum. Well, let's let's jump in with with one user, DE4life. Okay, they're already kind of waving the white flag. They're like 'sounds like another album I won't be buying'.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, you get that kind of like 'here we go again' kind of energy, right?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
It seems like they're they're really disappointed with some of the stuff that's come out, you know, more recently.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, they said that they'd only really liked one of the last four albums - which, I mean, I guess, kind of... I don't know. And then they even called out on another album the the lyrics vocals and production as kind of like deal-breakers for them, which I thought was interesting that they were like that specific.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. I mean, I think it highlights something that's very common, which is that even subtle shifts in in sound can be very alienating to to fans. Especially fans that have been around for a long time. You kind of get used to a certain a certain style, a certain era, and then when the band kind of moves on from that it can be really difficult to adjust.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, it's like when you have that friend who gets really into a new genre of music, and you're trying to be supportive, but like in your head you're like 'man, just put the old stuff back on', like, I don't I don't want to listen to this

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, and I think I think with music especially it's so it's such a personal thing, right? It's the soundtrack to our lives and so when a band changes it almost feels like a part of your own history is being is being rewritten a little bit. It's just it's a strange feeling, right?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, absolutely. Well, then we have only4theweak1987 coming in with a totally different take. So, they're acknowledging that there is potential for disappointment, but they're also kind of holding on to a little sliver of hope, you know, they seem cautiously optimistic. They said 'since I'm pretty open-minded when it comes to music these days I can see myself liking a few songs for what they are'.

[Speaker 2]
I appreciate that, kind of like measured, balanced perspective that they're bringing to it.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, I think I think that's fair.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, and then they go on to say that they even admit that their main focus isn't even the new music when they go see in flames.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, really?

[Speaker 2]
It's all about hearing those those classic songs live.

[Speaker 1]
Which, let's be real, that's that's a huge part of the concert experience for a lot of people. It's that collective nostalgia, that feeling of singing along to songs that define a certain period of your life.

[Speaker 2]
Oh 100%, yeah, like who doesn't love belting out, you know, Bullet Ride or Clayman?

[Speaker 1]
Exactly. Sometimes you just want that raw energy, that connection to the band's roots and I think that's totally valid.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. Speaking of raw energy, have you met A88?

[Speaker 1]
Uh oh, I feel like this is where the Pre-release anxiety takes a bit of a turn.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, just a little bit.

[Speaker 1]
Just a tad. A88 is not holding back, and I quote, 'this will be the ultimate one-use,mindless, IF album. Pleasant, plastic music for people to consume and forget. Real pop with some distorted guitars and screams'.

[Speaker 2]
Wow. Okay, A88, tell us how you really feel. I mean, it's it's almost like they're preemptively grieving the band that they used to know.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, and and maybe that's part of it. It's this intense fear of something that you love changing into something that you don't even recognize anymore.

[Speaker 2]
And I think especially with a band like In Flames, who have such a long and varied career, there are probably fans out there who literally feel like they've grown up alongside the band - and any sort of deviation from that that kind of classic sound can can feel almost like a personal betrayal.

[Speaker 1]
It's like they feel a sense of ownership. Which I get it. Yeah, I understand that feeling.

[Speaker 2]
To a degree.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, to a degree, but it also can be a very slippery slope.

[Speaker 2]
For sure, and and it really kind of raises this bigger question I think about, like, what are the limits of artistic evolution? How much can a band actually change while still, you know, kind of staying true to themselves and and their fan base?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, that's a tough question. It's like, you can't please everybody right, but in music it just feels like that's amplified like a thousand percent.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, absolutely, and the internet just gives gives everyone a megaphone to voice those those strong opinions.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, for better or for worse.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, exactly. Speaking of strong opinions, we've got to talk about Ciko here.

[Speaker 1]
Okay.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, this is kind of the voice of reason, I feel like in this sea of Pre-release chaos.

[Speaker 1]
Oh 100%, like in all caps, they wrote 'what's wrong with your attitudes guys? We didn't even hear the album and seeing posts like that makes me want to laugh actually', and I'm like, - yes, thank you.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, someone to bring us back down to earth here. It's so easy to get caught up in in the hype cycle, all the speculation, the hot takes and I think Ciko is just giving us that really important reminder to just pump the brakes a little bit.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, like, let's wait till the albums actually out.

[Speaker 2]
Let's listen to the full thing and then and then we can go crazy.

[Speaker 1]
Exactly, because trying to judge a whole album based on like a couple singles or, like, God forbid some of the snippets people are pulling off YouTube or whatever?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, it's like trying to judge a movie by the trailer, you might get a sense of the vibe, but you're missing like 99% of the actual story.

[Speaker 1]
Totally. Totally. Well, speaking of you know, judging things before before they're out there, you know, Eochaid brought up a really good point about review bias, and questioning the source. Especially if it seems, you know, too glowing or even like too harsh, right? Like, just just be careful about where you're getting your information. Eochaid even said 'when the review looks as if it was written by the band's management, then I consider it dishonest'.

[Speaker 2]
Be wary of the of the glowing glowing reviews, for sure.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, exactly. And then, to that point, I think it's it's almost like we all have to like develop our own like internal BS detector when it comes to music journalism. It's like, is this person giving me their genuine artistic critique or are they just trying to get like clicks with with a really hot take, you know?

[Speaker 2]
Totally, or are they being paid off by by someone to write this scoring review, right?

[Speaker 1]
Exactly. Exactly. DE4llife seems very wary of that. I think. They basically called out one particular review as as being, like, potential PR spin and they even went on to say 'compare that to some of the ultra positive reviews, and ask yourself why they differ so greatly, and the answer is quite obvious'. It's just interesting to me the level of distrust that some fans have.

[Speaker 2]
They feel like someone's trying to like pull the wool over their eyes a little bit.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, yeah, which to be fair is not totally unfounded.

[Speaker 2]
No, there's a ton of hype. There's a ton of, you know, marketing and sometimes it's it's really hard to to separate the genuine enthusiasm from... kind of calculated promotion, right?

[Speaker 1]
Exactly, and I also think it speaks to the the power dynamic that's at play too, where sometimes fans can feel like almost like their passion is being exploited. Especially when they feel like 'oh, this band that I that I love is selling out' or something, you know, and those those feelings are totally valid and when fans feel burned they react, you know.

[Speaker 2]
Sometimes strongly.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, sometimes a little too strongly, might I add.

[Speaker 2]
Well, you know A88 is back at it again with with the very strong opinions.

[Speaker 1]
With their with their Stalin-esque solution to to people who like the new album.

[Speaker 2]
A little extreme. I'd say.

[Speaker 1]
Just a tad.

[Speaker 2]
A tad, yeah, but again it highlights that intensity of feeling, like this is more than just like 'oh I I don't really like this album'. It's like there's a part of their identity, almost, that they feel is is being threatened

[Speaker 1]
Absolutely, and I think that's something that bands really have to navigate carefully these days. It's how do you evolve as an artist, you know? But also, like, honor the connection that you've built with your fan base over, you know, however many years however many [?]

[Speaker 2]
It's this delicate dance, you know, between like maintaining your artistic integrity and not totally alienating the people that that got you where you are.

[Speaker 1]
It's like walking a tightrope. One wrong step and it's a long way down and it's like, we're talking about In Flames here, right? I mean, these guys have been around for decades. They've experimented with their sound. They've definitely pushed boundaries before.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, they've weathered their fair share of of lineup changes and and you know, stylistic shifts and evolutions. They're they're no strangers to this kind of pre-release scrutiny for sure

[Speaker 1]
So it does make me wonder though, does all of this Pre-release drama almost make like the actual album drop more like, I don't know, eventful?

[Speaker 2]
Oh, absolutely. It's like the calm before the storm, right? You got this this weird pressure cooker of anticipation and dread and then like, boom, the album drops and it's like, yeah, everyone's, you know...

[Speaker1]
Everyone's got to have an opinion.

[Speaker 2]
Everyone's gonna have an opinion.

[Speaker 1]
Exactly. I imagine it's a lot for bands to process, just knowing that there are thousands of people out there just dissecting every note, every lyric, every Instagram post.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, it's got to be It's got to be a double-edged sword, because on the one hand that passion from fans, that's what keeps a band going. But it also like creates this intense scrutiny that can be you know, I'm sure, really creatively stifling in a lot of ways.

[Speaker 1]
Totally, it makes you wonder how much like creative freedom artists even feel like they have these days, knowing that every decision they make could like spark a social media firestorm.

[Speaker 2]
Exactly, it's a real balancing act you know, trying to stay true to your artistic vision, but also knowing that you're you're navigating these really really passionate expectations from a fan base that that feels, you know, very very deeply invested in your work.

[Speaker 1]
So, okay. So for our listener who's about to hit play on battles for the first time. They're stepping onto this battlefield of opinions, armed with lsnippets of reviews and forum rants and it's like... what what do you even do with that?

[Speaker 2]
It's a lot to process. I think I think the key takeaway here is just to be aware of the hype, be aware of your own expectations going in, but ultimately trust your own ears.

[Speaker 1]
It's easier said than done though

[Speaker 2]
Of course it is. It takes practice. Yeah, but I think if you think about it like this - every album is a journey, and the the most rewarding journeys are often the ones that we take without a map.

[Speaker 1]
I love that. Yeah, don't don't let the fear of getting lost keep you from exploring. Give the album a fair listen, you know.

[Speaker 2]
Form your own opinions and then and then by all means, jump into the the forum fray. Share your share your unfiltered thoughts.

[Speaker 1]
Just maybe skip the Stalin comparisons.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, I was gonna say let's maybe leave Stalin out of it. But yeah, I think a little empathy goes a long way, you know, even in in the world of metal fandom.

[Speaker 1]
100%. Well, this has been a fascinating deep dive. I do have one one kind of final final thought. How much do you think these pre-release opinions actually color our enjoyment of the music?

[Speaker 2]
I mean, it's it's the ultimate [?], right? it's like do we inadvertently go in like looking for things to confirm our biases? Or can a truly great album transcend all of that? Can it win over even the most skeptical listener?

[Speaker 1]
Something to think about as you hit play on Battles. Who knows? Maybe you'll maybe you'll discover your new favorite in flames album, right? O maybe, you know, maybe you'll join the ranks of A88 and his guillotine.

[Speaker 2]
Either way it's sure to be an interesting ride. So buckle up.

[Speaker 1]
Enjoy the journey.

[Speaker 2]
Enjoy the journey

 

[Xpyro125]

While this is impressive, I kind of hate it. Is it great as a funny little thing to see once or twice like this? Absolutely. Would it be genuinely helpful for so many people, particularly students, with digesting information and whatnot? Definitely. But I have a very cynical perspective on AI and its use, and I do have my suspicions that it’ll make people churning out content farms with opinions that aren’t even their own/opinions on things they have no attachment to that much easier. Unlike with other forms of AI, particularly visually, this usage of it seems nearly undetectable— There’s an authentic feeling to it since it does draw from actual human thoughts and feelings. Yeah, the voiceovers may very much be AI, but someone can simply read from the script at that point. I don’t know how cumbersome the process of getting all the messages was for you, so maybe I could be wrong, but it does still very much scare me.

I hope that this stays a niche thing that few know about, and that its use stays within the realm of what’s been mentioned here. I think that could be genuinely helpful even. Unlike something like with transposing 2004 Anders’ vocals onto THE songs, I don’t see much unnatural flaw to this, for better and absolutely for worse. At the very least, everything I’ve seen and heard here has been fine, and I hope things stay like that in the grand scheme of things.

I think I should go back to sleep now, I don’t like making things this serious, and I do apologize for that.

 

[DE4life]

Oh you have every right to be alarmed, and trust me, everything you're saying is already happening - at scale. The AI available behind closed doors will be far more powerful and frightening than anything which has been released to the public. What I'm showcasing is just silly stuff, as I took a handful of posts from here, fed it to the AI and viola, an amusing podcast about UM IF posts. If this kind of thing was all AI was used for then it'd be nothing to be concerned about.

Not hard to see how stuff like this gets used for far more nefarious purposes though.

 

[The Grayfox]

I have a similar relationship with AI. While it has it's uses and sometimes is damn impressive, it is a very, very dangerous, sometimes unnerving thing. We're seeing it being used politically in the States right now and just the fact that people can't seem to figure out what is AI and what isn't is bad news. That being said, I'd like to hear a podcast about SunOfMyth getting absolutely fucking hammered for mentioning music theory.

 

[drawntoblack]

But I have a very cynical perspective on AI and its use, and I do have my suspicions that it’ll make people churning out content farms with opinions that aren’t even their own/opinions on things they have no attachment to that much easier.

You already have lots of big-name youtube channels incorporating AI into writing scripts for their content and there is a noticable drop in quality because AI can't (yet) fake charisma and character.

Internet already got very dull and formulaic over the last ten years, AI was honestly the last thing we needed. But can't deny that it's impressive, and even more impressive the rate at which its being improved in practically real time.

 

[DE4life]

I have a similar relationship with AI. While it has it's uses and sometimes is damn impressive, it is a very, very dangerous, sometimes unnerving thing. We're seeing it being used politically in the States right now and just the fact that people can't seem to figure out what is AI and what isn't is bad news. That being said, I'd like to hear a podcast about SunOfMyth getting absolutely fucking hammered for mentioning music theory.

I've whipped something up and will get the audio file up shortly, but here's the "Timeline of Events" as analysed by NotebookLM:

Timeline of Events​

This story takes place over a short, undefined period of time on the UltimateMetal In Flames forum. We can assume a new In Flames album, Foregone, has been released relatively recently, based on the discussion.

1. SunOfMyth's Arrival: A new user, SunOfMyth, joins the In Flames forum specifically to defend the band's latest album, Foregone, from criticism. They argue the album echoes the band's "mid-era" sound and challenge users to provide critiques based on "music theory," not nostalgia.
2. Backlash Against SunOfMyth: SunOfMyth's initial post is met with immediate scorn and ridicule from established forum members. Users like Eochaid, DE4life, and The Grayfox push back against the demand for music theory-based arguments, asserting their right to express personal opinions and preferences. ThePhobiac shares their own experience of joining the forum after disagreeing with DE4life's opinion on a song and finding common ground with the forum's critiques of later In Flames albums.
3. JesterSlaveSucks's Interjections: A user named JesterSlaveSucks makes random, disruptive comments, seemingly targeting another user, Jester Slave, with insults. This suggests some pre-existing dynamics and tensions within the forum.
4. SunOfMyth Doubles Down: Instead of backing down, SunOfMyth responds with further criticism, accusing the other forum members of not understanding music, lacking growth as listeners, and clinging to a band they no longer enjoy.
5. Final Rebukes: SunOfMyth's second wave of criticism leads to even stronger rejections. Eochaid delivers a scathing response, emphasizing their right to express their opinion freely, regardless of SunOfMyth's disapproval. The Grayfox calls out the absurdity of SunOfMyth's argument, highlighting the purpose of the forum as a space for discussing In Flames albums, regardless of their release date. JesterSlaveSucks continues their seemingly unrelated insults towards Jester Slave.

Cast of Characters:​

SunOfMyth: A new user on the UltimateMetal In Flames forum. They are a self-proclaimed In Flames fan of over 20 years, with a particular fondness for the band's "mid-era" sound. SunOfMyth comes across as defensive, condescending, and insistent on using "music theory" as the only valid basis for criticizing music.
Eochaid: A long-time forum member and a vocal participant in the In Flames discussions. Eochaid is direct, confrontational, and dismissive of SunOfMyth's demands for music theory-based arguments. They are unapologetically opinionated and believe in their right to express their views freely.
DE4life: Another established forum member who frequently engages in In Flames debates. DE4life is sarcastic and mocks SunOfMyth's initial post. They value respectful debate and find SunOfMyth's behaviour ridiculous, suggesting they wait their turn before becoming truly confrontational like "Slave" and "Ciko."
Jester Slave: A forum member mentioned by DE4life as someone known for their strong opinions and willingness to engage in debates. Jester Slave themselves only appears briefly to comment on how "terrible takes" motivated them to join the forum.
ThePhobiac: A forum member who recounts joining after disagreeing with DE4life's opinion on an In Flames song. They provide an interesting perspective, admitting they agreed with the forum's criticism of recent albums ("Battles" and "I, The Mask") but are now enjoying the new music, suggesting a potential shift back to the sound of older albums like "Soundtrack to Your Escape" and "Come Clarity."
Pallbearer: A forum member who makes a sarcastic remark about In Flames members Björn and Jesper's knowledge of music theory in response to SunOfMyth's demands.
The Grayfox: A long-time forum member who responds to SunOfMyth with directness and a touch of humour. They call out the absurdity of SunOfMyth's logic and reiterate the forum's purpose as a space for discussing In Flames music, regardless of the album's age. They mention enjoying "Wallflower" from the album Battles and "SOAPF" (presumably Sounds of a Playground Fading) indicating their appreciation for albums from different eras.
JesterSlaveSucks: A disruptive user who makes random, insulting remarks seemingly directed at Jester Slave. Their comments suggest pre-existing tensions and a possible antagonistic relationship between them and Jester Slave.

 

[The Grayfox]

This is good stuff. I love that JesterSlaveSucks exists in this story just to chime in at random times and insult Slave lol. This line broke me:

"JesterSlaveSucks continues their seemingly unrelated insults towards Jester Slave."

 

[DE4life]

The Podcast:



It hallucinates some parts, I think because it won't repeat some of the harsher insults. I like that it calls me a "forum legend", but not sure about my feud with Phobiac though

 

[Xpyro125]

I don't know, I like the low gutterals. It reminds me of TJR. I much prefer this style as opposed to his shrill, shrieky screams. There's a clip on YouTube of IF playing Moonshield at Hellfest some years ago, sometime right when he started using his lower register again, and I don't think Moonshield has sounded that good since the 90s. It may not lend itself well to Clayman-present, but anything before that? It works beautifully imo.

Just sounds boring to me tbh. But keep in mind I've never been into death metal, deathcore, etc either. Vocals just do absolute zero for me. No expression or emotional range, just "sounding brutal", which... yeah, sure, I guess so.

To me, Anders sounded the most awesome between 2002 and 2006. I'm still amazed by his high pitched powerful screams from that era.

I forgot to reply to this conversation, but I do enjoy both his higher and lower register. My absolute favorite albums for Anders’ vocals are Come Clarity, Whoracle, and SoaPF, in that order specifically. We’ve discussed his vocals on CC and SoaPF plenty, but I genuinely feel that his vocals on Whoracle strike a nice balance between being technically intact and simply good-sounding like on TJR and alive and full of character like on Colony. There’s a rather raw feeling to his growls, with the rasps(?) being present due to him still projecting his vocals well by this point. The only tracks I take issue with vocally are Gyroscope, which I’ve already stated to just be because of the backing vocals in the chorus, the rest of the song is incredible, and Morphing Into Primal. The latter is genuinely the only track on the album that I feel could’ve been left off, and I’m not sure what the sentiment on that song even is within the fanbase. Whoracle overall is definitely the most death metal album IF’s put out, but it’s death metal that’s actually interesting and, well, melodic. I can’t agree more you DE4life’s assessment on death metal and deathcore, and I feel that the problem extends to the instrumentation in those subgenres as well. If I wanted to be bored to death, I’d put on first wave black metal— At least that stuff has character and identity.

I think his vocals are still mostly fantastic on Colony, simply due to how much personality they have while being objectively great (Particularly with him expanding his range and beginning to really utilize clean vocals), but his harsh vocals are clearly starting to break down by that point. I don’t think it’s really even noticeable in most tracks, but they’re definitely on the trajectory to Clayman on Zombie Inc., Coerced Coexistence, and Insipid 2000— All admittedly phenomenal songs whose vocals fit the instrumentals rather well, so I’m not complaining there. I’ve noticed that I just don’t enjoy most of Anders’ vocals on Clayman anymore, and I’m glad that that isn’t a sentiment I extend to either Colony or Reroute, even if his vocals on Reroute are a mixed bag with little control from Anders vocally and little quality control from everyone involved— And that isn’t to say that what’s good isn’t phenomenal, it absolutely is. I just think that there are a lot of parts that should’ve been rerecorded.

I’ve recently come to notice that ASOP’s a strange case in general. I genuinely think that if the quality of everything was up to the standard of The Mirror’s Truth EP, it’d be my second favorite 2002-2008 album from the band. That being said, I’d argue that the vocals aren’t that different from on the full album, yet I vastly prefer what we get on songs like Eraser and Tilt to Delights and Angers and Sober and Irrelevant overall. I’ve even reconciled everything with the instrumentals of the front half of the album (Not you, D&A), and yet something still feels absolutely wretched about all of it.

In many respects, I feel that Move Through Me is the only bright spot on ASOP in somewhat of a literal sense. It’s a rather uplifting song instrumentally and lyrically, and the vocals very much feel like how they are on Tilt. Are the instrumentals simple? Yes, but there is at least a bit of a groove to them that’s just hampered by the instrument tone and production. I wish the song got more love and was slotted into setlists at some point since I feel that it had the DNA for a big arena rocker.

I don’t want to end this on more bashing of ASOP like I’ve done a ton of in the past— It’d be a bit overdone, especially in a conversation where we give our appreciation on Anders’ vocals. I know ITM is still a somewhat ‘controversial’ album (Not in the dramatic sense, but rather the true mixed opinions kind of controversial), but I genuinely think that despite his harsh vocals not yet being as objectively good as on Foregone, they had the character and emotion-carrying quality I’ve loved from previous albums. Benson also toned down the autotune a bit for much of the album (At least compared to Battles, so that isn’t saying much), save for songs like Call My Name and Burn— The former of which I genuinely enjoy, the latter of which could’ve been so good if the chorus wasn’t just Firework by Katy Perry. Would Benson’s iteration of In Flames still be my least favorite if they continued down this path? Certainly, but I don’t think I’d have nearly as much reservations nor vitriol if we didn’t get outright regression in every sense like on Foregone. ITM’s return to actual metal songwriting did wonders for it, even if that is like saying they went back to a fraction of the quality seen on Clayman. It’s poppy alt metal that I can at least stomach, and I vastly prefer that to chuggy deathcore that leaves very little of the band I’ve loved left.

 

[Xpyro125]

This is good stuff. I love that JesterSlaveSucks exists in this story just to chime in at random times and insult Slave lol. This line broke me:

"JesterSlaveSucks continues their seemingly unrelated insults towards Jester Slave."

That is pretty beautiful, even if it is scary to see AI actually have genuine human charisma for a moment.

 

[ciko_gfb]

Hey there everyone, been a long time. Hope everything is okay, cool to see familiar faces around.

It looks like IF are coming to Turkey on Oct 1 - setlist.fm suggesting for the first time since 2012? Finally a chance for Ciko to meet Anders and thank him for being his hero and inspiration.

Their 2005 setlist in Turkey was pretty great. Episode 666, Artifacts, System, Scorn, Gyroscope, Behind Space, Jotun and Morphing Into Primal all showing up. They also played Graveland, because of course they did. The other two shows in 2011 and 2012 were festivals so nothing special there - but maybe we'll get another 2005-esque epic setlist this time around too.

Ciko better have tickets and he better be recording, just in case. Don't let us down bro.

You know me bro, I got the front row tickets immediately as they started the sale. I could not miss it My wife is also coming with me to the concert, too bad she’ll realize shes married to a man who is a proud member of Anders manlove crew.

Of course I’ll be recording and uploading them here. It is very unfortunate that its the second concert of the tour, I wont have any idea for the setlist.

Hoping to get a photo or video with Anders so I can put it here just to piss you guys.

 

[DE4life]

Well, Slave was somewhat right. I actually do quite like Save Me, and I’m glad it’s not House.

Low bar, of course, but I won’t apologize.

Haha, "I'm glad it's not House" is indeed a backhanded compliment, however I don't totally disagree with you. There are parts of Save Me that are decent. It has the potential to be a good song, but it's just ruined by a lack of progression, the sometimes unbearable autotuning on the vocals, the wafer-thin production and the vapid lyrical content. "Save Me" is repeated 19 times in a song that doesn't exactly have that many words to begin with.

I forgot to reply to this conversation, but I do enjoy both his higher and lower register. My absolute favorite albums for Anders’ vocals are Come Clarity, Whoracle, and SoaPF, in that order specifically. We’ve discussed his vocals on CC and SoaPF plenty, but I genuinely feel that his vocals on Whoracle strike a nice balance between being technically intact and simply good-sounding like on TJR and alive and full of character like on Colony. There’s a rather raw feeling to his growls, with the rasps(?) being present due to him still projecting his vocals well by this point. The only tracks I take issue with vocally are Gyroscope, which I’ve already stated to just be because of the backing vocals in the chorus, the rest of the song is incredible, and Morphing Into Primal. The latter is genuinely the only track on the album that I feel could’ve been left off, and I’m not sure what the sentiment on that song even is within the fanbase. Whoracle overall is definitely the most death metal album IF’s put out, but it’s death metal that’s actually interesting and, well, melodic. I can’t agree more you DE4life’s assessment on death metal and deathcore, and I feel that the problem extends to the instrumentation in those subgenres as well. If I wanted to be bored to death, I’d put on first wave black metal— At least that stuff has character and identity.

I like his vocals on TJR/Whoracle too tbf, they aren't as expressive as his later style but they're still perfectly fine. There isn't much need to be expressive when the lyrics use quite technical language anyway. One of my favourite ever IF lyric lines is "we've only seen outlines of the beginning, as its core the slowly moving raptor, will make the very notion of hell seem celestial in comparison". I really like the way Anders vocalises this, and I'd say as a whole his vocal approach fits TJR and Whoracle well.

I also think his deeper growls sound good live (when he's on form). Especially on the rare occasions they do the pre-1999 stuff. On Foregone, however, I find them very boring. That might be because I find the album as a whole quite boring though.

I think his vocals are still mostly fantastic on Colony, simply due to how much personality they have while being objectively great (Particularly with him expanding his range and beginning to really utilize clean vocals), but his harsh vocals are clearly starting to break down by that point. I don’t think it’s really even noticeable in most tracks, but they’re definitely on the trajectory to Clayman on Zombie Inc., Coerced Coexistence, and Insipid 2000— All admittedly phenomenal songs whose vocals fit the instrumentals rather well, so I’m not complaining there. I’ve noticed that I just don’t enjoy most of Anders’ vocals on Clayman anymore, and I’m glad that that isn’t a sentiment I extend to either Colony or Reroute, even if his vocals on Reroute are a mixed bag with little control from Anders vocally and little quality control from everyone involved— And that isn’t to say that what’s good isn’t phenomenal, it absolutely is. I just think that there are a lot of parts that should’ve been rerecorded.

Honestly I think the rawness of Anders' vocals on Colony and Clayman are what I really like about them. There's a desperation in his voice which mirrors the lyrics perfectly. Now granted, production plays a huge part in making them acceptable on Clayman. Production also plays a huge part in making them unacceptable (to me) on ASOP - particularly as they aren't significantly different on SOAPF (when the ripped vocal stems are compared) but the way they're mixed into the music is totally different and makes a massive difference. Less so on Colony, because you can hear on live performances from that era that his voice is pretty much exactly the same. That's just his vocal style working for me in conjunction with the music, irrespective of the production choices.

In many respects, I feel that Move Through Me is the only bright spot on ASOP in somewhat of a literal sense. It’s a rather uplifting song instrumentally and lyrically, and the vocals very much feel like how they are on Tilt. Are the instrumentals simple? Yes, but there is at least a bit of a groove to them that’s just hampered by the instrument tone and production. I wish the song got more love and was slotted into setlists at some point since I feel that it had the DNA for a big arena rocker.

Move Through Me is okay, but a bit empty. Not a song I'd come back to often because there just isn't much there. Condemned would undoubtedly be my top pick from the album (EP excluded), and I think it's a shame that one didn't get more play. Everything's Gone becomes a setlist staple, somehow, whilst Condemned is - to me - a much better, heavy, headbangable track that isn't too old. I mean, only six years between ASOP and Siren Charms.

I know ITM is still a somewhat ‘controversial’ album (Not in the dramatic sense, but rather the true mixed opinions kind of controversial), but I genuinely think that despite his harsh vocals not yet being as objectively good as on Foregone, they had the character and emotion-carrying quality I’ve loved from previous albums. Benson also toned down the autotune a bit for much of the album (At least compared to Battles, so that isn’t saying much), save for songs like Call My Name and Burn— The former of which I genuinely enjoy, the latter of which could’ve been so good if the chorus wasn’t just Firework by Katy Perry. Would Benson’s iteration of In Flames still be my least favorite if they continued down this path? Certainly, but I don’t think I’d have nearly as much reservations nor vitriol if we didn’t get outright regression in every sense like on Foregone. ITM’s return to actual metal songwriting did wonders for it, even if that is like saying they went back to a fraction of the quality seen on Clayman. It’s poppy alt metal that I can at least stomach, and I vastly prefer that to chuggy deathcore that leaves very little of the band I’ve loved left.

I agree, ITM is easily my favourite Benson-era IF album and it isn't even close. Now granted that isn't saying much, but nonetheless ITM still retains that "In Flames" feel to me, in a way that Foregone does not. Foregone might technically be heavier, and might even be closer to 'metal' in a traditional sense, but not the kind of metal In Flames have ever really produced. ITM has the Benson virus and still comes below everything pre-Benson for me except ASOP, but it's okay. There are still songs from it I'll occasionally listen to. Voices is a cool little track. The title track is pretty nice if you can get past the cleans. I like Burn, Deep Inside, All the Pain and Stay With Me as fairly simple, light-metal tracks. It's not the In Flames I knew, but there are still traces of that band in each of the songs. On Foregone, not so much. Fleetingly at best on a few tracks, whilst on many of them I hear zero In Flames magic. Basically any song that wasn't one of the singles.

 

[DE4life]

Hey there everyone, been a long time. Hope everything is okay, cool to see familiar faces around.



You know me bro, I got the front row tickets immediately as they started the sale. I could not miss it My wife is also coming with me to the concert, too bad she’ll realize shes married to a man who is a proud member of Anders manlove crew.

Of course I’ll be recording and uploading them here. It is very unfortunate that its the second concert of the tour, I wont have any idea for the setlist.

Hoping to get a photo or video with Anders so I can put it here just to piss you guys.

Good to hear from you bro. Hope you and the missus have a great time. Would be amazing if you actually got a picture with Anders - even more so if you and him were hugging, whilst your wife is standing off to the side like

As far as her not realising you're a member of the Anders Manlove Crew - she knows, man, she knows. Women know everything.

I actually kinda like the idea of not knowing the setlist - more fun that way if there are any genuine surprises.

 

[Xpyro125]

Haha, "I'm glad it's not House" is indeed a backhanded compliment, however I don't totally disagree with you. There are parts of Save Me that are decent. It has the potential to be a good song, but it's just ruined by a lack of progression, the sometimes unbearable autotuning on the vocals, the wafer-thin production and the vapid lyrical content. "Save Me" is repeated 19 times in a song that doesn't exactly have that many words to begin with.

I figured that’d be funny, though I do actually think it’s a pretty good song— And comparatively to most tracks off Battles, it’s a masterpiece. It has the same issue as Drained (Another Battles song that I actually do really like) in that the verses are quite nice, but the chorus is just mediocre pop metal slop. The first verse in particular is one of the few things off of Battles that not even just makes me feel something, but that I think is genuinely fantastic, at least for Battles. While I do like the ending and how it reminds me of The Chase (Which is such an underrated song, holy shit, why wasn’t this on base SC), it otherwise does nothing to justify it being a closing track to me. Maybe it’s due to Battles being torture to me, but Save Me is a 6/10, which is a fucking blessing on an album like Battles.

I like his vocals on TJR/Whoracle too tbf, they aren't as expressive as his later style but they're still perfectly fine. There isn't much need to be expressive when the lyrics use quite technical language anyway. One of my favourite ever IF lyric lines is "we've only seen outlines of the beginning, as its core the slowly moving raptor, will make the very notion of hell seem celestial in comparison". I really like the way Anders vocalises this, and I'd say as a whole his vocal approach fits TJR and Whoracle well.

I can absolutely agree about his TJR vocals not being too expressive, but I think Whoracle’s very much are, even if they’re not to the extent of those on Colony and Clayman. While I don’t really take issue with Colony’s vocals, those on tracks like …As the Future Repeats Today and Brush the Dust Away genuinely prevent me from enjoying what are otherwise pretty good songs. It works for other songs, don’t get me wrong, but if we’re asking which vocals we’d prefer overall, Clayman’s vocals would be towards the bottom of my list, and that is a somewhat recently developed feeling.

I do love the lyrics of classic IF albums. Dark Tranquillity always gets far more credit for having rather intellectual lyrics, but I vastly prefer IF’s lyrics— At least those of the classic era, Come Clarity, and SoaPF. The verdict’s out on everything else, but all of those are top tier lyrically.

I also think his deeper growls sound good live (when he's on form). Especially on the rare occasions they do the pre-1999 stuff. On Foregone, however, I find them very boring. That might be because I find the album as a whole quite boring though.

I think Anders’ deeper growls do work incredibly live, but there is more expressiveness and emotion put into them just due to the rawness of the situation. That, and I think Benson’s production does everyone little favor, save for Tanner’s drumming. I’d also say save for Chris’ soloing, but that’s purely due to me loving the material there.

Honestly I think the rawness of Anders' vocals on Colony and Clayman are what I really like about them. There's a desperation in his voice which mirrors the lyrics perfectly. Now granted, production plays a huge part in making them acceptable on Clayman. Production also plays a huge part in making them unacceptable (to me) on ASOP - particularly as they aren't significantly different on SOAPF (when the ripped vocal stems are compared) but the way they're mixed into the music is totally different and makes a massive difference. Less so on Colony, because you can hear on live performances from that era that his voice is pretty much exactly the same. That's just his vocal style working for me in conjunction with the music, irrespective of the production choices.

I do still believe that there are some differences purely in enunciation and in where exactly his voice and projection were at (At least from what I’ve heard) on ASOP and SoaPF, but compared to the differences of every other album, I do think those two are undisputedly the closest vocally by a wide margin.

Move Through Me is okay, but a bit empty. Not a song I'd come back to often because there just isn't much there. Condemned would undoubtedly be my top pick from the album (EP excluded), and I think it's a shame that one didn't get more play. Everything's Gone becomes a setlist staple, somehow, whilst Condemned is - to me - a much better, heavy, headbangable track that isn't too old. I mean, only six years between ASOP and Siren Charms.

I swear Condemned’s chorus feels like a Disturbed chorus— Not any one in particular, just like it’d fit perfectly with their style. In any case, it’s a decent song with fantastic drumming, and that’s all I’ve got for it. It’s definitely screwed over by its production and mixing, at least on my headphones, but it’s one of the more salvageable songs off the album.

I’d say my favorite’s always been Disconnected, it’s just genuinely great, and the lyrics feel real unlike a lot of the other tracks on the album. Drenched in Fear’s become a recent favorite for me, it just kicks ass in a way that other songs like March to the Shore try and fail to do.

I agree, ITM is easily my favourite Benson-era IF album and it isn't even close. Now granted that isn't saying much, but nonetheless ITM still retains that "In Flames" feel to me, in a way that Foregone does not. Foregone might technically be heavier, and might even be closer to 'metal' in a traditional sense, but not the kind of metal In Flames have ever really produced. ITM has the Benson virus and still comes below everything pre-Benson for me except ASOP, but it's okay. There are still songs from it I'll occasionally listen to. Voices is a cool little track. The title track is pretty nice if you can get past the cleans. I like Burn, Deep Inside, All the Pain and Stay With Me as fairly simple, light-metal tracks. It's not the In Flames I knew, but there are still traces of that band in each of the songs. On Foregone, not so much. Fleetingly at best on a few tracks, whilst on many of them I hear zero In Flames magic. Basically any song that wasn't one of the singles.

I relistened to the album a few hours ago, and honestly, it’s not quite as good as I remembered it being— Certainly not equal to TJR in a ranking like how I had it when the melodeath subreddit had the community ranking two(?) years ago. I feel the melodies just as much, but a bit less of the magic. The first minute of Follow Me is some of the best stuff on the album, but God, the song is atrocious otherwise. I thought I stopped listening to it because Stay With Me did everything it wanted to better, but it just sucks overall. House is just some of the worst music I’ve ever listened to. In This Life is fucking boring but not as bad as I remember— Hell, it has one of the only key changes I actually like from an In Flames song, which is a miracle in and of itself. Burn’s chorus ruins an otherwise fantastic song. Aside from that though, I do think it’s a great album— Granted, that’s a solid third of the album that’s fucked, with it being the entire middle portion save for We Will Remember (I am its only fan, even if it shouldn’t have been a single), but it’s fantastic otherwise. I’ll have to retier the albums soon, my opinions have definitely changed in the last few months.

Foregone stays losing though, fuck that album.

 

[Xpyro125]

Also, speaking of how much Follow Me sucks, have this absolute gem. There are no words.

 

[GraemeSinclair]

I'm glad the conversation circled back to Anders' growls because I'd been meaning to write more about it after the discussion about the Summer Breeze show a while ago, but I didn't get round to it, and the weeks passed.

I think I've been consistent since I started posting here 14 years ago in gushing about, or longing for Anders' lower harsh vocals. I got into In Flames through Come Clarity in 2006. I got a USB drive with the full discography up to 2005 from a schoolfriend, and I didn't really consume it in a structured way, I just stuck it on my old Creative Zen and would put In Flames on shuffle, so I'd hear Cloud Connected back to back with Biosphere, and didn't really know about the chronology or progression of their sound. It was also really my first time getting into any sort of extreme metal and getting used to harsh vocals at all, so I didn't necessarily know how to recognise different techniques.

Some point pretty quickly after I started listening, Jotun and Jester Script Transfigured became standout songs, then December Flower and The Jester Race. I really can't say if I came to like those songs in particular because of Anders' vocal style, or if I came to like Anders' vocal style because I liked those songs, but I started to become aware that when Anders joined the band, his harsh vocals were quite stylistically distinct to the way they sounded on Reroute, Soundtrack and Come Clarity. I think I also started reading online discussion of In Flames as well, and I can vaguely remember a review talking about In Flames' change in direction and it said something like "Fans who were there from the start have struggled to accept the 'watering down' of the band's sound with electronica and poppy choruses, while newer fans struggle to understand why Anders sounds so angry and incomprehensible on the older records". I think that was when the penny dropped that A: now that I was used to harsh vocals, 'angry and incomprehensible' Anders sounded coolest to me, and B: Anders didn't really sound like that any more, at all.

From listening to the mid-2000s records, and watching videos of live performances from the Come Clarity tour and the Used and Abused DVD, it was obvious that Anders hadn't just incorporated high screams and clean vocals alongside his old style - he had more-or-less completely replaced it, even when singing songs from TJR/Whoracle/Colony in concert. There were, of course, moments in live shows where he would drop down for a few seconds and show that he was still very capable, likewise on the studio recordings, there were either a few snatched words in a lower register, or it would be buried deep in the mix below layers of higher screams, but they were few and far between. I think by the time ASOP was being recorded, I was already posting on forums about how I hoped it would bring back at least some lower harsh vocals, but alas... it did not.

The point is that, after becoming a fan, it seemed like a part of their sound I really liked might be basically gone forever (from live performances and recordings), so the fact that in recent years, Anders has started to explore those lower frequencies both live and in the studio has been an amazing surprise. That video of Moonshield that @The Grayfox mentioned, for example, blows me away every time I watch it - it sounds like the way that song should be sung. I think I'd go further and say that, having seen songs from TJR-Colony being performed using predominantly screams for years, it feels cathartic to hear songs from post-Reroute albums performed using predominantly growls. Like, in my ideal world, they always would have been. I think that's also a big part of why I like Foregone so much, and why it feels like the closest thing to classic IF they've released since Clayman, despite its overproduced poppy elements.

 

[The Grayfox]

That podcast is great. I think you should change your title to "Forum Legend" and Eochaid should change his to "Mr. Gatekeeper" ... "classic Eochaid."

Also, speaking of how much Follow Me sucks.

I actually really like Follow Me. When it comes to newer songs, I definitely have unpopular opinions as to which songs I think are good and which I think are absolute horse shit. Follow Me and We Will Remember being two of the ones I like that most people don't.

The point is that, after becoming a fan, it seemed like a part of their sound I really liked might be basically gone forever (from live performances and recordings), so the fact that in recent years, Anders has started to explore those lower frequencies both live and in the studio has been an amazing surprise. That video of Moonshield that @The Grayfox mentioned, for example, blows me away every time I watch it - it sounds like the way that song should be sung. I think I'd go further and say that, having seen songs from TJR-Colony being performed using predominantly screams for years, it feels cathartic to hear songs from post-Reroute albums performed using predominantly growls. Like, in my ideal world, they always would have been. I think that's also a big part of why I like Foregone so much, and why it feels like the closest thing to classic IF they've released since Clayman, despite its overproduced poppy elements.

I think that's basically how I feel. I thought the growls would never make a comeback. As I said before, I'm generally a bigger fan of gutterals than screams anyway. I love death metal, some deathcore. I really like the power that comes from gutterals. They're more pleasing to my ear. When it comes to Anders, there are moments on Come Clarity, for example, that I find downright annoying. His shrill screaming is a bit much for me at times. If there's one positive I can say about Anders on Foregone, it's that I do appreciate that he is growling a lot more.