Harvester
The Promoter
Come on J-Man. You defending Nightwish is like me defending Evergrey. There isn't an impartial ounce in it.
NIGHTWISH: Endless Forms Most Beautiful
- Thread starter KingsGene
- Start date
Come on J-Man. You defending Nightwish is like me defending Evergrey. There isn't an impartial ounce in it.
Justin G
Member
I kind of felt this way after the last Kamelot album, where it seemed like they held Tommy back.
Mardoch
Defender of the Universe
I was going to poke him for that as well, but I didn't want it to come off wrong. It's the same league as Bryant defending anything VP does.
Diamond45
Terminate Bad Music
Saw this today. It proves that Tuomas held Floor's operatic vocals back on purpose. However, it does not say why her vocals are so low in the mix.
http://metalhammer.teamrock.com/news/2015-04-13/nightwish-didn-t-use-jansen-to-show-off-in-studio
http://metalhammer.teamrock.com/news/2015-04-13/nightwish-didn-t-use-jansen-to-show-off-in-studio
Harvester
The Promoter
That's absolutely understandable on the band's part and a great explanation. Don't get me wrong as I really enjoy the album. It's just a matter of preference as compared to simple criticism. I enjoy a different era of Nightwish songwriting more. There just isn't anything on the new disc that compares with a song like Ghost Love Score. The fact that Floor simply owns that tune live makes it a even more frustrating because we know what she can do as compared to Annette that suited the storytime approach perfectly.
As for the mix, I'm no audiophile. I still think she is a bit low in the mix and I will not be convinced otherwise. However, perhaps it sounds better that way to all involved. We don't have that knowledge because we haven't heard it sung any other way.
What do I know though? Evergrey hasn't ever released a bad album.
nailz
Member
Considering we haven't really had an "operatic style" sound from Nightwish since Wishmaster, I really don't see that it's fair to be disappointed that THIS album wasn't operatic either. The album fits, mostly, with the style of the last 4 albums they've put out since Wishmaster, each being a little further from Operatic and a little closer to full symphonic sounds.
See, this nails all the "disappointed" posts on the head, with what seems to be the right approach. "Yah, it's Nightwish the way they've progressed, and the album is fine, but I prefer the old stuff." I can get behind this mentality, different strokes, and Nightwish isn't the same band they were when they released Oceanborn. And as far as GLS goes, I don't think Nightwish is going to top it, and certainly not with 4 minutes of opening filler and 2 minutes of monkey sounds separating one of the most epic, amazing songs I've heard them make.
Very true, but when you bring in someone like Floor, with a long track record, there are expectations there as well.
Not to mention preceded by another instrumental track. Personally, I think there would have been less of an issue with the 20 minute track if it was broken up. I kinda get what they are doing there.
It is disappointing to see Nightwish move away from what was half of their identity. I think they lost something with that.
nailz
Member
Nightwish shines when the musicians are allowed to do their thing without a vocal distraction. I could actually do with a lot more Nightwish songs that were written purely to be instrumentals.
It IS broken up. That's the problem, it starts with an incredibly boring (because it's far too long) intro, and weird, discordant 'jungle sounds' in the middle. The rest of the song is fucking brilliant.
But.. at what point do people just fucking come to terms with it? People who are "disappointed" every time NW releases an album that doesn't focus on operatic rock really started to lose their real-estate on their soap boxes when Once was released, right? I mean, 2 albums in a row, you kind of have to see the writing on the wall. Then you get Dark Passion Play and Imaginarium.. I think at this point, "Jesus, shut up" is an appropriate response to people who are still bitching about it.
Harvester
The Promoter
You were doing great till you went to that response.
I think the "Defenders of the New" can be just as guilty of being zealots as "Defenders of the Old." You can't throw the blanket over everyone that doesn't think the new disc is the greatest thing since sliced bread. I can truly enjoy the new stuff (and I do), but I can still prefer the old stuff without "bitching". And when I say old stuff, I'm not referring to vocals specifically. I'm talking the bombastic style compared to the stories.
nailz
Member
Sorry, perhaps I was making my point poorly. I actually agree with your stance that you can not like the new material as much as the other style. I don't have any issue with that kind of a thought or discussion. I'm not trying to zealot for the new stuff either. It's different, and certainly, either you're going to like one or the other more.
My general gripe here is people who are still pining for the old, operatic stuff exclusively, and are somehow constantly shocked and seemingly offended when, after 4 (5 now!) albums, the style doesn't radically shift back to Wishmaster and Oceanborn.
I certainly appreciate the older style tremendously, and think Floor could pull off that style exquisitely if the band chooses to go in that direction again. In fact, I'd probably prefer it. But that's not what they've done and not what they're doing, and we're reminded of that after every album by a flood of "wow this is disappointing that it's not operatic" comments. Specifically the word "disappointing."
My general gripe here is people who are still pining for the old, operatic stuff exclusively, and are somehow constantly shocked and seemingly offended when, after 4 (5 now!) albums, the style doesn't radically shift back to Wishmaster and Oceanborn.
I certainly appreciate the older style tremendously, and think Floor could pull off that style exquisitely if the band chooses to go in that direction again. In fact, I'd probably prefer it. But that's not what they've done and not what they're doing, and we're reminded of that after every album by a flood of "wow this is disappointing that it's not operatic" comments. Specifically the word "disappointing."
TwizstedJesus
Member
- Mar 1, 2004
- 1,219
- 24
- 38
I like the Floor material more than the Annette stuff, less than the Tarja stuff, and wish we would get another Century Child or Once. But, I believe that time has passed and we get what we hear now because that's where their heads are at. Fair enough. Its enjoyable, its just not the ERA that some old fans wish for.
Ummmmm does anybody remember "Torn"? lol
Ummmmm does anybody remember "Torn"? lol
hoodaman
Is it live or is it Dave?
- Dec 19, 2006
- 857
- 29
- 28
I've personally experienced this with a handful of bands I've listened to for years and years. What I've found is that when a band shifts styles over time to a point when the music they're currently releasing no longer resembles the style of music that made me like them in the first place, it's time to stop listening to that band.
As much of an idealistic notion as it is to appreciate an album for what it is vs. what I would like it to be, it is damn near impossible to listen to an album in a vacuum especially when its an artist I'm very familiar with and has an established catalog which I will almost assuredly compare it to.
The only solutions to this dilemma that I can think of are, as I mentioned before, stop listening to the band, continue listening to the band and try my damnedest to put aside expectations of what new music from them should sound like and find new bands that scratch the same itch.
Mardoch
Defender of the Universe
Ummmmm does anybody remember "Torn"? lol
Torn is awesome. MMA would be a sour note, imo.
Oblivion Ocean
Member
Luckily I enjoy both eras of Nightwish. While I think they lost a little uniqueness in terms of sound when they went away from the operatic style, the songs are just much better written now. I think they really got as much out of that sound that they could. I like old NW, but honestly, some of those early albums sound a little dated to me now.
I would listen to MMA 20 times in a row before I would listen to anything they have released since more than once.
I would listen to MMA 20 times in a row before I would listen to anything they have released since more than once.
Keir
Member
I am of a very different opinion. I stopped listening to Nightwish about 14 years ago because the novelty of operatic metal had worn off and their albums were starting to sound the same. I love the new stuff because it is different and it seems like their creativity and passion has returned.
I think some of the disappointment isn't just pining for the old days, tho I am of the camp that losing that aspect of themselves has taken a good part of what made them special for me. Part of it is bringing in Floor, who could sing the old stuff and the new stuff with the power it deserves, but then getting the album and not having Floor do a lot the stuff we are used to her doing. I think it is perfectly fair to be somewhat disappointed in that. From what little I've heard from the album, she sounds good (Better than Annette overall, IMO), but instead of getting Floor as most of us have been used to hearing her, it has been her squeezed into the context of what Nightwish does now. For me, it isn't disappointment that they haven't returned to the old days, but disappointment that her presence hasn't stretched their sound.
That isn't to say that I don't like the album. Personally, I'm still digesting it. But, it isn't blowing me away right now, and for me they've been really hit and miss since Once. So far this album hasn't changed my feeling about them.
That isn't to say that I don't like the album. Personally, I'm still digesting it. But, it isn't blowing me away right now, and for me they've been really hit and miss since Once. So far this album hasn't changed my feeling about them.
Sir Exar Kun
Member
This!!!
I have not heard a note of the album yet, but this is the comment I have seen several times that appears to be the common thread: that Floor appears to be under-utilized, and fit into a mold rather than letting her exhibit the power that her vocals contain. This does not mean they have to be operatic; Floor has such an incredibly STRONG voice in multiple styles, that she can easily stay in the same mold as Annette, but with her own strengths brought to the table, and it sounds like that isn't the case.
It's the same argument with Kamelot, I think..... You have a vocalist like Tommy who is outstanding on his own merit, and yet his singing is being fit into an almost cover-band mentality of imitating Khan.
Why many of us are disappointed in these new albums are because we are familiar with the musicians involved, and we know the sheer POTENTIAL of what could come from these unions, and to see these performers under-utilized translates to disappointment. Had these bands brought in unknowns as the new singer, and put out the albums, I don't think people would be nearly as underwhelmed.
AngraRULES
Member
I would listen to MMA 20 times in a row before I would listen to anything they have released since more than once.
Clearly you've never heard HFTB.
Oblivion Ocean
Member
No, I have heard it. While it was better than the previous two, to me they are still a shadow of their former selves. I really wanted to like it since some people were championing it as a revitalization. When I go back and listen to albums from the ISOT to MMA era, the next day the songs are stuck in my head. That does not happen to me with the last three at all.
Again, I wish HFTB had clicked for me, since their classic albums are some of my all time favorites. But to me the last three just seem like going through the motions for them.
delainnation
Member
As much as I LOVE Nightwish, I am an UBER fan, they dropped the ball on this new album. I wanted a Floor A-bomb DANG IT!
Similar threads
