Oh man I love counterpoint

Metaltastic

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Feb 20, 2005
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Specifically in metal riffs, of course :D But man, I gotta say, I got sick of the "whole play a riff, then play it again...harmonized!" thing a LONG time ago, it generally sounds horribly cliche to me now. No, counterpoint is really what gets me, having one riff/lick that's different but still related to another, putting 'em together, and reveling in the way your attention seems to be divided between the two but yet they seem to unify as one. Dream Theater do this a lot, especially when the keyboard will be playing a melody, and Petrucci will be riffing away awesomely underneath (an example would be at 2:42 in "About to Crash: Reprise", AKA Part VI of Six Degrees Disc 2 - and I tried to find a video of it, but I couldn't deal with the 3 pages of bedroom cover versions :lol: )

Another example I love is the main riff (at 0:35) in Kamelot's "III Ways to Epica" - yes, it's a little cheesy, but listen to how awesome the underlying riff is under that soaring lead :headbang: (and unfortunately the only vid I could find with decent audio quality was this guy's photo album :lol:)



I'm usually not a fan of power metal, but man are these guys an exception!

And finally, what got me thinking of this was both that TesseracT clip in the main section of the forum and the fact that I've recently discovered another bit of amazing counterpoint that has taken its rank among my all-time favorites: 3:15 in Opeth's "Serenity Painted Death" :headbang:



Share some of your favorite examples, but I would ask that they really be cool/interesting counterpoint in the metal vein like the three above, which all have a pretty consistent similarity I think. But hey, threads do take on lives of their own, after all, so nah, have at it :D
 
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I know this isn't in your vein, but the Late Malice Mizer was the standard for over the top counterpoint. I tried writing shit like that but it ended up sounding like Malice and not very metal. Still I write some polyphonic melodies (melody + counter-melody + rhythm polyphony) and usually there are 2 rhythm guitars doing their own thing but overall sound like one huge guitar doing one thing.

takes one hell of a time to master. When I was in High School my band teacher gave me a book on counterpoint, and I learned a lot about the melodic curve and what makes a good melody and all that jazz. Anyway, its a great weapon to have.

Also, Dream Theaters "Stream Of Consciousness" off of 'A Train of Thought", the ending has a very, Malice Mizer esque counterpoint part in it. Really great song.
 
I know it's not metal, but fuck, I have to mention the best conterpoint master of all time :

JS Bach !



(prelude of 6th cello suite)

Excepted in the very end, there is NEVER 2 notes played at the same time. Also, if you read the sheets, there is no rythm variation. And the piece is still wonderfully contrasted, melodical, and has a strong harmony on what the melody sit strongly.

Just listen the main theme of that suite. And for me the best example of counterpoint ever is at 2:36 : just after 20 secondes of pure musical sweetness, there is an epic part that is just human genius. One instrument playing notes after notes, and yet when you hear it you can clearly distinguish a melody over an epic harmony that draws itself slowly.
 
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marcus once again hammering home that he is a man of simple pleasures haha
 
I know it's not metal, but fuck, I have to mention the best conterpoint master of all time :

JS Bach !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9fpmgpNDwc

(prelude of 6th cello suite)

Excepted in the very end, there is NEVER 2 notes played at the same time. Also, if you read the sheets, there is no rythm variation. And the piece is still wonderfully contrasted, melodical, and has a strong harmony on what the melody sit strongly.

Just listen the main theme of that suite. And for me the best example of counterpoint ever is at 2:36 : just after 20 secondes of pure musical sweetness, there is an epic part that is just human genius. One instrument playing notes after notes, and yet when you hear it you can clearly distinguish a melody over an epic harmony that draws itself slowly.

THIS = END OF THREAD.

YOU, SIR, HAVE A FINE TASTE. :)
 
Could we maybe not bring in the immediate classical elitism and "end the thread", rather recognizing that they're two different things, both great? :) Anyway, LaSedna, that is indeed beautiful, though while I guess it's not impossible, having counterpoint with one player seems a little odd ;) I dunno, I listened at 2:36, and maybe it's because I really don't listen to much classical music so I'm not accustomed to differentiating, but to me it just sounds like a guy playing a shitload of triplet arpeggios; I guess it's meant to be a variation on a main theme, in that certain notes are part of the melody and the rest of them are backing parts (I think calling them "harmony" would be a misnomer if there's nothing else being played simultaneously, again back to the whole "soloist" thing). Not disputing you, just acknowledging that I'm not familiar enough with the style to really tell; something with two or more players would be easier for me to grasp if you've got it!
 
Could we maybe not bring in the immediate classical elitism and "end the thread", rather recognizing that they're two different things, both great? :) Anyway, LaSedna, that is indeed beautiful, though while I guess it's not impossible, having counterpoint with one player seems a little odd ;) I dunno, I listened at 2:36, and maybe it's because I really don't listen to much classical music so I'm not accustomed to differentiating, but to me it just sounds like a guy playing a shitload of triplet arpeggios; I guess it's meant to be a variation on a main theme, in that certain notes are part of the melody and the rest of them are backing parts (I think calling them "harmony" would be a misnomer if there's nothing else being played simultaneously, again back to the whole "soloist" thing). Not disputing you, just acknowledging that I'm not familiar enough with the style to really tell; something with two or more players would be easier for me to grasp if you've got it!

Heh, was just joking right there with the end of the thread thing.

I really love Bach though, so to speak. And yeah some metal music has awesome counterpoint : The Gallery being my favourite album and having killer counterpoint melodies.
 
marcus once again hammering home that he is a man of simple pleasures haha

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume that wasn't meant to be a condescending riff on my music tastes, but it came off a bit ambiguously to me dude! (specifically the use of the phrase "hammering home")

WinterSnow, Malice Mizer sounds pretty wild, I dig it - got an album recommendation I could check out?

Phil, yeah, I hear ya dude, no harm done, just wanted to make it clear :) And I've never been that big of a DT fan tbh, though I've never heard The Gallery, so maybe I'll give it a go!
 
what exactly is counterpoint, for the theory noobs like me? I've heard the term used a lot, especially in regards to Emperor, but never really understood what it specifically meant.
 
Dude, I like fucking love notes and shit.

This song has lots of goddamned notes.



Holy fuck this song has lots of fucking notes too. YEAH!



This song has so many fucking notes that Eb still needs Astroglide. FUCK.



Jeff
 
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from wiki

counterpoint is the relationship between two or more voices that are independent in contour and rhythm and are harmonically interdependent

Basically two separate melodies with their own rhythm pattern and melodic curve. Having nothing to do with another other than same tempo and key, but are brought together to propose one unison melody. Popular in baroque music, such as JS Bach. They are difficult to write in a sense because you are trying to make both melodies sound good by themselves but also together without clashing. Then they must fit over the bass/chord progression.
 
Just in case you were wondering, yeah, that's a dude. :)

yup Mana is full on dude. Somehow straight to, last time I heard, he was with a woman :lol:

Metaltastic:

"Bara no Seidou" is the huge gothic baroque "funeral music" album. Can't really recommend anything else other than the fact I haven't really listened to their older stuff, sounds like a softer Japanese homoerotic cosplay version of "The Cure". Actually Mana's other band Moi Dix Mois is worth checking out if your not utterly bothered by some over the top cross dressing Marlyn Manson wannabe French gothic...(idk what the fuck to call it) that has some pretty weird vocals, but mind you that's the very band that spawned all that is j-rock, including Dir En Grey, though I can tolerate Moi Dix Mois a lot more than Dir En Grey, its all pretty out there. But then again I am not the extremist type personality.