GarethSE
New Metal Member
- Jul 5, 2008
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Oh man I love counterpoint
- Thread starter Metaltastic
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TheWinterSnow
Den Mørke Natt
Moi Dix Mois
It was Mana that single-handedly formed J-Rock to what it is today, especially the Visual Kei category, or at least he brought it to the spotlight that is sees in Japan
DanLights
Santa Hat Forever
Marcus: The Gallery, and Opeth's Morningrise, to me the masters of wierd un-equal but awesome guitar harmonies in metal (what you mortals call "counterpoint") 
I declare openly I did not get jeff's post at all. did he misunderstand "counterpoint" for shredding or something? Maybe I'm just using a baseball cap backwards and that's why I'll never understand
I declare openly I did not get jeff's post at all. did he misunderstand "counterpoint" for shredding or something? Maybe I'm just using a baseball cap backwards and that's why I'll never understand
iekobrid
Authorized XSr Dealer
Mana was indeed a big push behind '90s second-wave visual kei (along with Dynamite Tommy's Free-Will indie label, founded in 1986), but VK is a small subset of "j-rock", which is a fantastically broad category that includes any japanese artist that isn't pop/dance, hip hop or folk/enka. Also, Moi Dix Moi wasn't formed until 2001, after Malice Mizer went on 'hiatus'; Malice Mizer was the more influential of those two bands. VK is generally traced back to bands formed in the mid- to late-80s like X, who not only coined the term "visual kei" in the first place and were headlining the Tokyo Dome two years before Mizer even released their first track, but whose drummer produced many early Dir en grey singles.
Now, a case could be made that acts like Marilyn Manson and Korn were indeed a big influence on third-wave VK, which is why I asked for clarification which one you meant.
Now, a case could be made that acts like Marilyn Manson and Korn were indeed a big influence on third-wave VK, which is why I asked for clarification which one you meant.
The thread seemed silly, so I made fun of it. Counterpoint is common enough that this seemed to me only slightly removed from "Dude, breathing is awesome!"
Also, remember your manners... take your hat off when you walk inside, and *never put it back on*.
Jeff
Yup, listen to the section at the time index I pointed out in that Opeth song, prepare to
No, I was giving specific examples of how I really like it in metal, and I don't think it's all that common in it
TheWinterSnow
Den Mørke Natt
Most modern music does not have counterpoint, usually simple harmonizing which does not signify counterpoint, which is a whole entity in itself. Again this is a very archaic practice, especially in metal which has taken more to the shred aspects over ornate substance.
smy1
Member
Jeff: too much emphasis is put on notes these days! All I care for is THE BOOM!
Do you need melodies for counterpoint? Or does a low-E staccato rhythm playing underneath simple powerchord changes also count?
Do you need melodies for counterpoint? Or does a low-E staccato rhythm playing underneath simple powerchord changes also count?
LeSedna
Mat or Mateo
Basically, my example of that bach piece is not the best example, because the basic counterpoint stuff is about 2 melodies playing together with 2 melodical lines. In my example, you can hear a lot of different lines coming one after the other, each one leaving some sort of strong influence on the next melody. The next phrase sits over what brought the precedent one. It's not technically "rigourous (or straight?) counterpoint" (dunno how it is said in english, in frenche "contrepoint rigoureux").
For smy1 :
I think the first sentence of the wikipedia article is well written :
"In its most general aspect, counterpoint involves the writing of musical lines that sound very different and move independently from each other but sound harmonious when played simultaneously."
The term comes from the origins. At first, religious songs were not melodical (I'm not even sure melody did exist as we know it) and with the time, there was first the idea to double the sound with a 5th (which is still not another melody, it powerize the original one, like a powerchord), and with the time came the idea to create a melody, and another one that was getting lower when the first got higher. As the music notation was just created with the invention of melody and timing, written with "points", it was named "counterpoint". Basically, it means "creating harmony with independant lines".
(sorry if I say something stupid, I'm not a pro)
It's a bit creating music horizontally, whereas the harmony approach (a succession of chords creating a melody uppon itself) is vertical.
About chugga E rythm, technically, it may be what is called a "bourdon" (dunno if the term is english too). It's a note that never changes and emphasizes the whole harmony.
And yes you need melodies for counterpoint. Basically you can distinguish 2 things : melody and harmony. A melody is a melody, and harmony is about chords. You cannot create one without the other, but you can play with them. For example, in my video, a melody makes you hear chords, and when you play a succession of chords, your ear automatically hears a melody. I don't know if this melody is theorically predictible, I guess yes, but I have a poor music theory knowledge so I'm not sure.
Basically, when you write 2 lines, 1 for each guitarist, that are both melodies, and that interact together independently, it's counterpoint.
I guess when you write harmonized guitars ala In Flames, it's harmonic, because they create chords a dependant manner.
For smy1 :
I think the first sentence of the wikipedia article is well written :
"In its most general aspect, counterpoint involves the writing of musical lines that sound very different and move independently from each other but sound harmonious when played simultaneously."
The term comes from the origins. At first, religious songs were not melodical (I'm not even sure melody did exist as we know it) and with the time, there was first the idea to double the sound with a 5th (which is still not another melody, it powerize the original one, like a powerchord), and with the time came the idea to create a melody, and another one that was getting lower when the first got higher. As the music notation was just created with the invention of melody and timing, written with "points", it was named "counterpoint". Basically, it means "creating harmony with independant lines".
(sorry if I say something stupid, I'm not a pro)
It's a bit creating music horizontally, whereas the harmony approach (a succession of chords creating a melody uppon itself) is vertical.
About chugga E rythm, technically, it may be what is called a "bourdon" (dunno if the term is english too). It's a note that never changes and emphasizes the whole harmony.
And yes you need melodies for counterpoint. Basically you can distinguish 2 things : melody and harmony. A melody is a melody, and harmony is about chords. You cannot create one without the other, but you can play with them. For example, in my video, a melody makes you hear chords, and when you play a succession of chords, your ear automatically hears a melody. I don't know if this melody is theorically predictible, I guess yes, but I have a poor music theory knowledge so I'm not sure.
Basically, when you write 2 lines, 1 for each guitarist, that are both melodies, and that interact together independently, it's counterpoint.
I guess when you write harmonized guitars ala In Flames, it's harmonic, because they create chords a dependant manner.
LeSedna
Mat or Mateo
Better example of counterpoint (still bach, sorry ) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8EI5pzvGPY
Fugues are good examples of use of counterpoint
) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8EI5pzvGPYFugues are good examples of use of counterpoint
LeSedna
Mat or Mateo
I think this can be interesting too, here : , subtle counterpoints in the fact that there is no instrument playing chords, but their melodies together create the whole harmony.
(fuck I'd like to edit my posts instead of posting 3 times but EDIT/QUOTE buttons disappeared for me 2 weeks ago !)
(fuck I'd like to edit my posts instead of posting 3 times but EDIT/QUOTE buttons disappeared for me 2 weeks ago !)
Last edited by a moderator:
TheWinterSnow
Den Mørke Natt
LeSedna:
+1 on the wikipedia quote, I posted that in the first page and found it pretty accurate, so hearing someone else believing the same is a plus.
the "chugga riff" where one note stays consistent is called droning (the drone is the constant note) and it came from middle eastern culture and was never used in baroque/classical music but is so common in today's western music (chug riffs and big open power chords/progressions)
Elanor Rigby is not counterpoint however it is close, but it is what would be considered a melody/counter-melody relationship.
+1 on the wikipedia quote, I posted that in the first page and found it pretty accurate, so hearing someone else believing the same is a plus.
the "chugga riff" where one note stays consistent is called droning (the drone is the constant note) and it came from middle eastern culture and was never used in baroque/classical music but is so common in today's western music (chug riffs and big open power chords/progressions)
Elanor Rigby is not counterpoint however it is close, but it is what would be considered a melody/counter-melody relationship.
Chryst Krispies
Vanilla Gorilla
I still think classical music is where it's at if you like lots of shit going on at once. No elitism. Just truth.
LeSedna
Mat or Mateo
There's a drone E starting at 0:34 and going until near the end, where it becomes an A : [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmTnLcOYEGE&feature=related[/ame]
This is THE piece that got me into classical ! Anyway thanks for the word "drone", I thought it was referring to a part in a song that is quite "aerial" and repetitive
About Eleanor Rigby, Isn't melody/counter melody actually considered a counterpoint ? I remember the "counterpoint" term can apply to a lot of things. I never studied theory except by myself so I'm not so sure of that fact
This is THE piece that got me into classical ! Anyway thanks for the word "drone", I thought it was referring to a part in a song that is quite "aerial" and repetitive
About Eleanor Rigby, Isn't melody/counter melody actually considered a counterpoint ? I remember the "counterpoint" term can apply to a lot of things. I never studied theory except by myself so I'm not so sure of that fact
Keregioz
Kimon Zeliotis
I think I agree with JBroll....if I understood correctly what counterpoint means and based on Marcus's examples I don't think that it's that uncommon in metal.
On another note, I must admit that I use the "play a riff, then play it again...harmonized!" more than I should... I'll try to use more counterpoint
On another note, I must admit that I use the "play a riff, then play it again...harmonized!" more than I should... I'll try to use more counterpoint
TheWinterSnow
Den Mørke Natt
eh to some degree melody/counter-melody is counterpoint, however its more of two melodies that are completely separate and don't unify together as one melody. There is a very thin line between the two, it may be very thin and where exactly to draw it can be stretched, its there. Example, a guitar riff over a vocal melody, they don't really mix together however they have their own ideas that are completely independent and don't mesh together as one thought or idea.
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