Oh's mics placement (Jens Bogren video)

[::XeS::]

Ok...this is one of those doubts that I never cleared completely.
I know we have already discussed it in the past, but my doubts remain.
The problem I found there is expecially when the drummer use only 1 kick drum (95% of the drummers).
The usual setup is: kick, snare, 2 or 3 toms, 1 or 2 floors, 2 crashes, 1 ride and 1 china (sometimes splashes) and of course hit-hat.
In this standard setup we have the kick, the toms mounted over the kick, the 2 crashes left and right of toms, the snare to the left of the kick, etc etc...so we have the snare under the left crash and the rest of the cymbals (and the kit) to the right.

This is a good example of what I'm speaking about. You can notice that the right (crowd perspective) crash is way closer to the snare, than the left one.
With spaced pair, we will definitelly get much more snare in the right track of course, unless we don't put the right oh mic 1 meter right away the crash.
One think I'm thinkin' is to try to visualize a kit like this, like a 2 kick drums kit, so if possible, tom mounted on a proper stand and not on the kick, and the right crash more to the right, like there is another (invisible) kick. In this way the snare becomes centered to the kit, with the 2 crashes equidistant from it, and the spaced pair mic results in a more accurate stereo image.
The problem is that it's a little tricky, also because a drummer likes to play on his own setup with the cymbals placed as he wants.
I know you can separate the kit in 2 zone with an immaginary line over snare/kick, micing the 2 zones with a spaced pair, but often it produces a not simmetrical and realistic rappresentation.
Anyway, I found this video. Urbandux in studio with Jens Bogren, and you can see a single kick setup, with spaced pair mics, and obviously Jens doesn't bother too much of the snare centered to the kit.



It's a simple spaced pair placed over the 2 crashed, but what about the snare in the oh's?

Another solution that simplify a little the stereo image, is the x/y technique.
Probably it produces a less wide kit image, but Jacob Hansen always uses this technique and his drums sounds killer.

 

[~BURNY~]

Another solution that simplify a little the stereo image, is the x/y technique.
Probably it produces a less wide kit image, but Jacob Hansen always uses this technique and his drums sounds killer.

XY doesn't produce a narrower image. It sounds (kind of) less impressive because it removes phase from the equation. It produce an intensity (volume) based stereo image meaning that from a drummer perspective, hat will be louder on the left and quieter on the right and that's it.
With a spaced (ab) setup, the hat will not only be quieter on the right but also reach the right microphone later producing a phase based stereo image. (much like your ears do)
The ab type spaced setup should not be confused with the spot micing ala sneap which isn't a "real" stereo setup (stereo image is mostly determined by the panning of several mono sources/groups of cymbals).

 

[::XeS::]

When I speak about spaced pair I mean the technique used by Jens on that video. 2 mics, 1 left and 1 right, trying to get the whole image of the cymbals. 2 mics + 1 for HH and 1 for ride.
Andy uses a mic for every couple of cymbals.

 

[AdamWathan]

The overheads looks equidistant from the snare to me in that video... Notice how much higher the mic on the drummer's left is? That's how I do it as well. Position the mics so they are pointing where you want them and then adjust the height to get them equidistant from the snare. Never really had any trouble with this...

 

[::XeS::]

I'm not speaking about the distance in height but if the right mic is 50 cm distant from the snare and the left one is distant 130cm from the snare, when you pan 100% L and R you will get the snare much more louder on the right, so when you will listen only the OH's, you will notice the snare panned to the right and not centered.

 

[Jaymz]

Stagg crashes....urgh

 

[~BURNY~]

I guess jens isn't overly obsessed with having the snare dead center in the oh.
I tend to compensate with height.

 

[::XeS::]

This is an example of what I mean when I speak about spaced pair with snare in the center:

or

 

[Mikaël-ange]

I'm not speaking about the distance in height but if the right mic is 50 cm distant from the snare and the left one is distant 130cm from the snare, when you pan 100% L and R you will get the snare much more louder on the right, so when you will listen only the OH's, you will notice the snare panned to the right and not centered.

You need to have our OH equi distant from snare Michele.
But with this your R OH look excentred from the kit (and with some kit, out of kit) but it's how is work.
I questionned myself during a couple of week about and this method is most logical imo. Glenn already notice that in his massive drum thread

 

[::XeS::]

Ok Probably sometimes I overthink about some aspects ahahah.
I'm also very curious about the X/Y teqnique, so probably next session I'll give it a try

 

[Ermz]

Never been too thrilled with X/Y overheads myself. I think some phasing is pleasing to the ear. That 'console' sound we all desire has minute phase smearing created by cross-talk artifacts between channels. Many of the processes we put our tracks through to 'enhance' them induce phase shift. A/B has been the way for me ever since I first tried it. It can be a little tricky in the mega metal set-ups though where there are cymbals all around and you just can't cover all of them adequately. That's where the spot mics start to come out.

 

[Mikaël-ange]

Ok Probably sometimes I overthink about some aspects ahahah.
I'm also very curious about the X/Y teqnique, so probably next session I'll give it a try

I overthinked about OH placement many time (since your last similar thread in fact)...
1kick=mindfuck imo
You only need to be focus on snare perfectly put on OH center with spaced pair...

 

[AdamWathan]

I'm not speaking about the distance in height but if the right mic is 50 cm distant from the snare and the left one is distant 130cm from the snare, when you pan 100% L and R you will get the snare much more louder on the right, so when you will listen only the OH's, you will notice the snare panned to the right and not centered.

Yes I'm aware. But for the snare to be centered in the overheads, the mics just have to be the same distance from the snare, period. So if the mic on the drummer's left is closer, you raise it UP to add distance. It still points at the same place but now it's further from the snare. The distance from left to right isn't the only thing you have to consider, the height adds distance as well. You are measuring the line between the center of the snare and the capsule on the mic, not just the horizontal vector.

 

[::XeS::]

I'm thrilled about x/y because I really love Jacob Hansen's drums sound! He always uses this technique.

Anyway, 2 kicks kits are definitelly better in terms of symmetry

 

[~BURNY~]

Yes I'm aware. But for the snare to be centered in the overheads, the mics just have to be the same distance from the snare, period.

Well mic angle also impart a coloration that comes into play in the stereo image as well as decorrelation created by possible reflexions (more likely in an untreated space). There's definitely more to it than just distance but it's of course the first thing to look at.

 

[Metaltastic]

What would the advantage be in raising the mic, rather than just lowering the fader? If anything, raising the mic seems like the poorer choice because of the decrease (relative to the other mic) in the direct/room sound ratio...

 

[::XeS::]

Exactly....if you have R at 30cm from the snare and the L at 150cm, you have to raise R by 120....and R will capture way more room than L.
At this poit is way better to separate the kit with the immaginary line that pass over snare and kick, and mic the 2 "zone", also with one mic completely out of the kit (looking from above).

 

[~BURNY~]

What would the advantage be in raising the mic, rather than just lowering the fader? If anything, raising the mic seems like the poorer choice because of the decrease (relative to the other mic) in the direct/room sound ratio...

Having an equivalent phase relationship between the snare and the two mics.

 

[Metaltastic]

Would that matter if the two mics are hard-panned though? (unless you're in mono, but honestly...fuck mono )

 

[Trevoire520]

What would the advantage be in raising the mic, rather than just lowering the fader?

Because lowering the fader only sorts out the level difference, not the time of arrival difference.

If anything, raising the mic seems like the poorer choice because of the decrease (relative to the other mic) in the direct/room sound ratio.

This is exactly the point I was going to make, having one mic higher than the other is going to result in a one side of the kit being more direct than the other.