OK, so help me with the super budget recording!
- Thread starter jamesrt2004
- Start date
The StabbinCabin
Member
James
I'd remove the waves plugins and learn your DAW through and through and do your pre-pro yourself. With the gear you're working with, plugs like that won't save your mix- honestly you'll get better sounding mixes with stock plugs if you read the FAQs and practice on your downtime- I did that and my mixes have improved greatly and I can be happy that I haven't stolen. In the mean time I am saving for a better mastering software and the Waves Ren bundle while I record with what I have. If you want to program drums, invest in SD or something more tweakable- prioritize man, it's only a few hundred dollars. You will appreciate the things you rightfully own and I'm sure be more driven to learn it since you actually worked for it...
If you are still set on getting pretty good quality product and saving some cash- I recommend you read up on proper tracking of DI's and slipping DI's in Reaper. That will tighten up the playing a bit. Then do the same with programming drums. Then organize all your shit, tempo maps- everything- and pay a professional who is willing to reamp and does passable work with midi drums. Nothing will sound as good as the real deal with a pair of ears that know what they're working with, BUT this is the most logical way to go about the DIY approach...
So just listen to everyone else- read, practice, be patient and don't steal- or you're just going to suck and then not have a forum to come to.
I'd remove the waves plugins and learn your DAW through and through and do your pre-pro yourself. With the gear you're working with, plugs like that won't save your mix- honestly you'll get better sounding mixes with stock plugs if you read the FAQs and practice on your downtime- I did that and my mixes have improved greatly and I can be happy that I haven't stolen. In the mean time I am saving for a better mastering software and the Waves Ren bundle while I record with what I have. If you want to program drums, invest in SD or something more tweakable- prioritize man, it's only a few hundred dollars. You will appreciate the things you rightfully own and I'm sure be more driven to learn it since you actually worked for it...
If you are still set on getting pretty good quality product and saving some cash- I recommend you read up on proper tracking of DI's and slipping DI's in Reaper. That will tighten up the playing a bit. Then do the same with programming drums. Then organize all your shit, tempo maps- everything- and pay a professional who is willing to reamp and does passable work with midi drums. Nothing will sound as good as the real deal with a pair of ears that know what they're working with, BUT this is the most logical way to go about the DIY approach...
So just listen to everyone else- read, practice, be patient and don't steal- or you're just going to suck and then not have a forum to come to.
Ok...
Piracy.. Let's not go there *sigh*.... I'm not using it for personal Gain.. It's purely for an educational purpose and non profit... but meh I understand peoples views on the matter.
Ok so.. what I do have is amplitube... Various Reaper plugins, and the free set of Bluecat plugins, plus various free ones i've found off the interwebs...
now I've tried to record the band before and it worked..... ok... ish...
it's just this time dual tracking etc... some parts just sound horrible...
To the person who said it was down to shit playing.. the 'technical' parts actually sound ok.. it's the easy peasy stuff (and it's not my playing anyway)
Hoping out of this I can get a more coherent answer from people...
Now I do read constantly various forums/information on the web (lurked here for a while)...
For the person asking about WHY I used the C4 plugin plus Sneap's settings on the guitar.. well, people said it's a good setting to start off from for any guitar so i just tried it to see if it made a difference (to me it didn't)..
(also to me.. it looks like an 3 Band EQ + compressor) probably wrong but hey..
So any USEFULL advice on somewhere I could start... we ARE recording (hopefully WITH andy sneap as his studio's around 20 miles away) near the end of the year... this is just us making a new demo and messing around cos' we have a new vocalist
any REAL help is appreciated.... people being angry cos' I mentioned waves plugins doesnt >_<
Other notes.. Im looking into getting a DI... Avalon U5 is recommended yes?...
I also have a bout 1k worth of drum mic's so COULD mic' up a drum kit.. but we dont have anywhere to do it ..... then we have to worry about it sounding good...
now this IS just a lil demo to play around with till we record properly! Please remeber that.. just trying to have some fun and get some knowledge on how it all works!
Piracy.. Let's not go there *sigh*.... I'm not using it for personal Gain.. It's purely for an educational purpose and non profit... but meh I understand peoples views on the matter.
Ok so.. what I do have is amplitube... Various Reaper plugins, and the free set of Bluecat plugins, plus various free ones i've found off the interwebs...
now I've tried to record the band before and it worked..... ok... ish...
it's just this time dual tracking etc... some parts just sound horrible...
To the person who said it was down to shit playing.. the 'technical' parts actually sound ok.. it's the easy peasy stuff (and it's not my playing anyway)
Hoping out of this I can get a more coherent answer from people...
Now I do read constantly various forums/information on the web (lurked here for a while)...
For the person asking about WHY I used the C4 plugin plus Sneap's settings on the guitar.. well, people said it's a good setting to start off from for any guitar so i just tried it to see if it made a difference (to me it didn't)..
(also to me.. it looks like an 3 Band EQ + compressor) probably wrong but hey..
So any USEFULL advice on somewhere I could start... we ARE recording (hopefully WITH andy sneap as his studio's around 20 miles away) near the end of the year... this is just us making a new demo and messing around cos' we have a new vocalist
any REAL help is appreciated.... people being angry cos' I mentioned waves plugins doesnt >_<
Other notes.. Im looking into getting a DI... Avalon U5 is recommended yes?...
I also have a bout 1k worth of drum mic's so COULD mic' up a drum kit.. but we dont have anywhere to do it ..... then we have to worry about it sounding good...
now this IS just a lil demo to play around with till we record properly! Please remeber that.. just trying to have some fun and get some knowledge on how it all works!
olif8
Minge
Although it is for personal gain. Because you're using it.
Also pirated per chance?
So get tighter takes
Good, keep it up
Exactly, you have no idea why you're using it.
Don't mention the forum
You have been given some good information so far, take heed of this advice and good luck
guitarguru777
Member
All I can do LOL ...... although he was CLOSE on the C4 but no cigar ...lol
FYI the C4 is a MULTI BAND Compressor that allows you to compress only certain frequencies in the spectrum. Now that being said ..... Do you even know how to use compression or what it does?
As for the playing, its all int he quality of the playing. It needs to be TIGHT to sound good. Re-track it and get it PERFECT then worry about your tone. Till then nothing you do will make it sound good.
ahh ok, i've never really messed around with compressors.. literally use a preset and forget about it... to me I personally can't 'hear' the difference, I think i'd need someone to demo and show me a before/after and be like OHHHHHHHHHHHH okaay....
I was actually looking into getting a compressor for my bass.. but again, I dont really understand it, I thought it was basically a limiter,, which apparently it's not?
(so I guess the answer to your question Is not really, I dont really understand the whole attack release thing.. though I could hazard a guess... at.... whatever it's compressing... the attack is how long it leaves said... piece alone till it cuts in? and then release I dont really get.. ?
Again I mentioned it before, it's the easy bits which are very tight are the bit's that sound the worse :/ it sounds like a phasing effect.. now I don't know if thats down to crap hardware/software/ME(most likely) ? but it's 'properly' dual tracked so shouldn't be phase issues right?
I did do.... http://soundcloud.com/skiesofdeceit/messaroundbassdrumdemo ... now... (ignore the drums it's all over the shop) but yeah.. single track just seems so easy? dual tracking just has made it 100% harder even with the same settings? I don't get why :/ is it PURELY cos' timings... just tad too far out in some/most places that instead of fattening it's killing it? i've tried things like inverting phase (someone explain this to me.. I asked a guy whos doing music tech at uni and he couldnt even explain) and doing thigns like adding 10ms delay between the tracks but no cigar
Also... another Question... It seems to me certain frequencies fighting over various parts... (i.e it's just going quieter in some places) but how do I work out which is which, and surely i dont want to EQ out masses of guitar from the drums do i it'll end up making one of the two sounding very lifeless :/? or is it generally some set frequency?
guitarguru777
Member
Understanding how to balance a mix is 90% of the game (FYI this is done via compression and EQ as a simple explination)
As for HOW compression works it really depends on the compressor but the basics are:
Threshold - the level a signal needs to reach before the compressor kicks in. If the signal is under the threshold the compressor doesn't do anything. But most pro compressprs have some type of "coloration" to them so you get a slight EQ curve as well. Like an 1176 for instance when you run a signal through it wehter the signal is below or above the threshold the components add a bit of coloration to the signal.
Ratio: The amount of compression added to the signal once the signal passes the threshold.
Attack: How quickly the compression reacts to the signal going over the threshold. Longer attack times are smoother and less noticeable and prevent pumping.
Release: the amount of time the compressor will stay active after the signal has fallen below the threshhold
That's the VERY basics of it.
As for HOW compression works it really depends on the compressor but the basics are:
Threshold - the level a signal needs to reach before the compressor kicks in. If the signal is under the threshold the compressor doesn't do anything. But most pro compressprs have some type of "coloration" to them so you get a slight EQ curve as well. Like an 1176 for instance when you run a signal through it wehter the signal is below or above the threshold the components add a bit of coloration to the signal.
Ratio: The amount of compression added to the signal once the signal passes the threshold.
Attack: How quickly the compression reacts to the signal going over the threshold. Longer attack times are smoother and less noticeable and prevent pumping.
Release: the amount of time the compressor will stay active after the signal has fallen below the threshhold
That's the VERY basics of it.
But why's it SO much more different this time around from dual tracking to single tracking? is it just not as tight as I thought it was?
Thanks for explaining the functions of a compressor/compression...
but could you explain what it actually does to the sound? to me it just sounds like (sorry for the example) but looking at the c4 sneap settings, I played around with it trying to understand, to me it' was if it just 'cut' or made certain frequencies quieter? (same settings just apart from what frequency was being compressed) now is it meant to just do that? I always thought compression was used to tighten and make a bit of oomph behind it (due to being tighter)?
Thanks,
James
(im just using the stuff I have now, so Amplitube 3.5 (free stuff plus bought the soldano) + amplitube metal,,, I have loads of impulses but not sure what impulse loader to use? or to use one at all? it seems revalver is quite a hit..
I just have no idea where to start this time, all my presets worked ok last time, now this time around it sounds shoddy and all the frequencies just... not playing well :/ (same guitar/leads/setup)
Loren Littlejohn
Lover of all boobage.
My favorite cheap bastard plugins:
DDMF (like the eq and the compressor)
Mellowmuse (like IR1A quite a bit, it's an impulse loader)
Stillwell Audio
Or if you like, this plugin does 90% of what you need (doesn't have reverb) for $200 (and yes that is cheap for a plugin like this):
Izotope Alloy
But I'm with Guru, don't steal shit. Amplitube 3 free is actually really good, I snagged a few of thier amps recently for $37 (really digging that fact that you can buy amps you want instead of forking for the full version!).
There are ways of not breaking the bank if you need quality plugins.
DDMF (like the eq and the compressor)
Mellowmuse (like IR1A quite a bit, it's an impulse loader)
Stillwell Audio
Or if you like, this plugin does 90% of what you need (doesn't have reverb) for $200 (and yes that is cheap for a plugin like this):
Izotope Alloy
But I'm with Guru, don't steal shit. Amplitube 3 free is actually really good, I snagged a few of thier amps recently for $37 (really digging that fact that you can buy amps you want instead of forking for the full version!).
There are ways of not breaking the bank if you need quality plugins.
Hey
thanks for suggestions I'll have a butchers when I get up in the morning (2am atm)
Ok i'm personally against piracy i buy all my games/music/applications etc...
its more that i dont personally value a program as worth 1000's! unless it did something amazing
(now in the right hands im sure it can make them lots of money in the long run)
but for me it's hard to.. justify it, is the right term, especially as I am a noob and wouldn't even be able to do much
(maybe a HP/LP filter at the most,,, n that's pushing it! aha)
!!but yeah im not going to use them..I'll going to try go the all free route and see how far that takes me, then just see what I need along the way!
Currently getting a new bass half stack >_< so thats all my funds atm, but will be purchasing a DI at some point (if not for recording, then it's useful for gigs)
guitarguru777
Member
IN the directory below there are 4 files:
Vocals with compression
Vocals without compression
Vocals with compression in a mix
Vocals without compression in a mix
Can you hear the difference now?
http://www.constantinestudios.info/comp
Try and explain what you hear and we can walk you through WHY you are hearing what you hear.
Vocals with compression
Vocals without compression
Vocals with compression in a mix
Vocals without compression in a mix
Can you hear the difference now?
http://www.constantinestudios.info/comp
Try and explain what you hear and we can walk you through WHY you are hearing what you hear.
ahjteam
Anssi Tenhunen
Oh man that was a fucking great thread when you started on him, I still LOL at some of the pictures you posted :')
I understand what it's like when you don't know how to EQ, but there really is no quick way around it. There are some charts and guides (like the flub is in THIS range, and the boxyness is in THIS range), but you can't just blindly follow them. I guess you just have to try out how different EQ settings affect different sources. Maybe practice it daily for a while? But beware of ear fatigue, if you spend a lot of time fiddling with just one source (trying different EQ things) you might find that it does sound better bypassed...
Ok I think I can hear the difference.... now the uncompressed, seems abit quieter, and say im not sure how to put it.. but say after the vocalist has sung a line theres a second or 2 where it 'fizzles out' on the compressed that's not there, so it seems tighter I guess in that sense?
Yeah' I've seen some guides and charts, it's just before, I used a preset that worked and changed it a lil bit to my taste, now it's just not working at all this time..
the kick really overpowers everything (mid wise for some reason)
I'm guessing I should LPF it? but to what degree should I start at? should I be aggressive and do somethign silly like 300hz or what? where do you guys generally start at?
cheers,
James
jipchen
ForesterStudio
@jamesrt2004:
All the questions you ask are legitimate and pretty much the exact questions every person has to ask when he/she get's into audio engineering.
Asking them is the right path. What really bothers me about your thread though is that you could EASILY use the search function because people on here have been answering the same very basic (and not so basic) questions over and over and over and over. Most people try to look up something and sooner or later they will ask a question because they feel they don't get a particular point or want to know the details/story behind it. You, however, are obviously not willing to look and read through the gazillion of pages with VERY helpful content.
And that's pretty lame. Also, know this: You could ask and get tips for weeks and you still won't suddenly be able to throw out godlike mixes. It's a craft like many others, it takes a lot of experience, a lot of reading, a lot of trying and a lot of failing to get on. We can't answer your question for the next 2 years, you gotta do at least some things on your own.
Also, there are no correct answers to a lot of questions. Some low-cut their guitars at 50Hz, and others at 150. It depends on the music, the mix and your taste. Try what sounds good or how it affects the sound. You won't learn anything if someone tells you to always cut the guitars at 88 Hz.
I hope this doesn't come off rude, just trying to be honest and perhaps help you in the end.
Also, I belive Guitarguru made this: http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=007593470310830667409:4qw46y8lnza
It's a custom search for this forum. Use it. Type in your questions and you will get 100 answers.
There are also a lot of good books on this topic, like "The Mixing Engineer's Handbook" by Bobby Owsinski and many others. It's a good investment.
All the questions you ask are legitimate and pretty much the exact questions every person has to ask when he/she get's into audio engineering.
Asking them is the right path. What really bothers me about your thread though is that you could EASILY use the search function because people on here have been answering the same very basic (and not so basic) questions over and over and over and over. Most people try to look up something and sooner or later they will ask a question because they feel they don't get a particular point or want to know the details/story behind it. You, however, are obviously not willing to look and read through the gazillion of pages with VERY helpful content.
And that's pretty lame. Also, know this: You could ask and get tips for weeks and you still won't suddenly be able to throw out godlike mixes. It's a craft like many others, it takes a lot of experience, a lot of reading, a lot of trying and a lot of failing to get on. We can't answer your question for the next 2 years, you gotta do at least some things on your own.
Also, there are no correct answers to a lot of questions. Some low-cut their guitars at 50Hz, and others at 150. It depends on the music, the mix and your taste. Try what sounds good or how it affects the sound. You won't learn anything if someone tells you to always cut the guitars at 88 Hz.
I hope this doesn't come off rude, just trying to be honest and perhaps help you in the end.
Also, I belive Guitarguru made this: http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=007593470310830667409:4qw46y8lnza
It's a custom search for this forum. Use it. Type in your questions and you will get 100 answers.
There are also a lot of good books on this topic, like "The Mixing Engineer's Handbook" by Bobby Owsinski and many others. It's a good investment.
I do read a lot, I promise I just don't expect to instantly be good!
im not planning to become an audio engineer or anythign of the sort, it's a bit of fun to understand the process of everything i bit more (trying to get a grasp on all aspects of the industry.. (so ive put on shows, in a band, got merchandise, (trying to record a basic demo) and various things
If i panned to do this properly I would happily study for years to find little hints ant tips to try fatten up mixes and make them sounding really nice, but unfortunately im not after that.
Im after a (very) basic demo which sounds alright and gives promoters, fans, etc.. a basic idea of what we sound like before we record properly (late this year/early next)
ok I understand aswell that audio by nature like art is at the person's discression to wether it sounds good/bad/amazing/terrible and therefore people will edit their own mixes accordingly
I'm just after a basic... idea lets say of someone saying 'I generally HP at 50 as a start and see if i need to go higher/lower from there'
so say.. starting points as thats the bit im poo at!
Ill have a look on the forum using the search then.. (mosty I never bother due to searches on forums being pretty.. lackluster)
Thanks for your help btw.. No offence taken it didnt come across as rude at all!
If anyone can offer some more advice though on where I could/should start it would be great.
Ill track the drums up properly after the weekend due to going away.. then post up what I have as a starting block.
(changed the guitar tone quite a bit and the bass doesnt sound SO out of place) lol at it sitting on TOP of everything >_<
james, james, james.
if you're not trying to become an audio engineer, then I don't think this is the right place for you to be asking questions.
I mean, it sounds like you're saying something like: I don't wanna be a Doctor, I just wanna know how to take care of sick people.
Which is okay in a way.
But you must understand: our advice is useless unless it's applied through critical audio analysis.
And for that very reason, presets are usually useless and can only serve as a stepping stone to give you ideas of how to take your ideas to a new level. Each recording situation is unique due to quite a number of variables that can be controlled and a number that can't.
The first step to fixing up your mix is learning how to identify what's wrong with what you're hearing & why.
This is the most important step.
And before you're able to accomplish this, you need a much deeper understanding of audio, music, and how your DAW and plugins work.
After you acquire this knowledge (which can take months), you can start making sense of advice that we give you.
AE is an art. this is correct.
But it's also a science that requires a fine tuned ear.
this is why Waves Plugins can't save you. so stealing them is not only ILLEGAL, but useless as well.
Senseless thievery.
there are tons of illegalishnessness done in the audio community. From music downloading to cracked plugins. but it's best to just do things the correct way. if we don't, we're causing our own downfall.
But I listened to your track. but you should probably think about putting some drums in before you start deciding where your guitars sound bad.
if you're not trying to become an audio engineer, then I don't think this is the right place for you to be asking questions.
I mean, it sounds like you're saying something like: I don't wanna be a Doctor, I just wanna know how to take care of sick people.
Which is okay in a way.
But you must understand: our advice is useless unless it's applied through critical audio analysis.
And for that very reason, presets are usually useless and can only serve as a stepping stone to give you ideas of how to take your ideas to a new level. Each recording situation is unique due to quite a number of variables that can be controlled and a number that can't.
The first step to fixing up your mix is learning how to identify what's wrong with what you're hearing & why.
This is the most important step.
And before you're able to accomplish this, you need a much deeper understanding of audio, music, and how your DAW and plugins work.
After you acquire this knowledge (which can take months), you can start making sense of advice that we give you.
AE is an art. this is correct.
But it's also a science that requires a fine tuned ear.
this is why Waves Plugins can't save you. so stealing them is not only ILLEGAL, but useless as well.
Senseless thievery.
there are tons of illegalishnessness done in the audio community. From music downloading to cracked plugins. but it's best to just do things the correct way. if we don't, we're causing our own downfall.
But I listened to your track. but you should probably think about putting some drums in before you start deciding where your guitars sound bad.
